Need help with pancake air compressor

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  #1  
Old 05-13-20, 06:00 PM
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Need help with pancake air compressor

I have a Westward 4YD76-4 135 PSI 4 gal pancake air compressor that started having a problem last summer. I would start it up and it would run until the 135 PSI and shutoff. I would use some air and when it got down to approx 100 PSI it would attempt to turn on but would only get a clunk noise like it wanted to start but couldn't and would continue to do that if I left the power switch on so I would turn it off until I needed more air.

So now this year I wanted to check into the problem and it will run anywhere from 50 - 75 PSI on initial startup and turn off. Then I get the clunk noise because it is trying to start up since the pressure is below the cut-in pressure. I replaced the pressure switch but no change. What I did notice is that I can power it off and on and it will run in short bursts. If I do this several times, it will eventually reach the 135 cut-out. I used some air and it actually cut-in at it's correct PSI and refilled but after that when I used air, I couldn't even use the power off/power on trick to get it to run again, just the clunk noise like it wants to run but can't.

Any suggestions? Thanks
 
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Old 05-14-20, 07:53 AM
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You said you replaced the pressure switch. Did you also replace the unloader valve? The unloader valve is often sold with pressure switches.
 
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Old 05-14-20, 08:22 AM
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No, I haven't, the only thing changed so far was the pressure switch.
 
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Old 05-14-20, 10:08 AM
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Most compressors can't start against the force of the air pressure in the tank. It's what makes the loud pfssst sound when the compressor turns off. When the compressor turns off the unloader valve opens releasing the air between the check valve and compressor. Then when the compressor starts up next time there is no back pressure on the compressor so it can get spinning with much less resistance.
 
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Old 05-14-20, 10:26 AM
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Thanks for the info, I have read about that on links found on the internet, but I was thinking against that only because once it shuts down, I can power off/on the unit and it will run again for another 5-10 psi and the last time I tried it, it ran for another 40 psi until cutoff. If it were the check valve, wouldn't it not continue to run on the power off/on sequence since the back pressure would still be the same?
 
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Old 06-16-20, 12:50 PM
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Ok, so I have replaced the pressure switch, check valve & safety valve and still have the same issue of initial run to 50psi then stops and will keep trying to restart but doesn't, just clunks like there is too much back pressure. But if I power off the unit & turn it back on, it will run for another 5psi and stop again and will clunk until I power off again. I can keep doing this until I reach cut out pressure. I can use air until cut-in pressure and it will run for another 5psi and clunk again. I have opened up the head and reeds & gaskets look good. I couldn't access the piston the cylinder was riveted to mounting plate but I felt good resistance while moving the piston, no obvious signs of issue with ring/seal. Can the stopping be a thermal issue? If so though, why would it still clunk like it wants to start but too much back pressure. Any suggestions/ideas?


 
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Old 06-17-20, 05:09 AM
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Hi, if you were to open the drain valve and leave it open will the compressor continue to run? Here is a link that maybe of some help, page 16 on the relief valve
http://dl.fdocuments.in/download/ae9...UPUbHbmA%3D%3D
Geo
 

Last edited by Geochurchi; 06-17-20 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 06-17-20, 01:43 PM
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Good suggestion Geo, yes! the compressor will continue to run. With the drain closed it will run for approximately 25 seconds (50 psi) and stop. With it open, it ran for a minute & half before I turned it off. So it appears to be some kind of back pressure issue but as stated before, check valve, pressure relief valve and pressure switch have all been replaced. Any further suggestions?

Btw, I cannot open the link you posted.
 
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Old 06-17-20, 02:57 PM
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I cant give any specific feedback but keep in mind along the process, that you may have gotten a bad (new) pressure switch. If all else fails, you might consider trying another new one.
I have to say it would be awfully odd that both pressure switches (or any of the other new parts) would also stop at exactly 50 PSI. But its something to keep in the back of your mind if you exhaust all other avenues.

Good luck.......
 
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Old 06-17-20, 04:39 PM
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Hi, does the pressure switch have the unloader capability? Post a pic of the compressor and how the unloader valve is connected.
sorry about the link.
Geo
 
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Old 06-18-20, 04:43 AM
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Dixie, agree with everything you said, will keep in mind.

Geo, pic is below. Here are a couple links to YouTube videos with a Porter Cable compressor in which the motor & connections look practically exactly like mine.

Safety valve - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXoT6lISz0A
Motor - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPxabCK4fPQ



 
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Old 06-18-20, 06:11 AM
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Hi, what is that piece in post #6? Still donít see an unloader valve in any of the pics. I suspect that when it shuts off at 50 PSI and if you crack the drain valve a bit I would start and run OK when the drain was closed it would shut off at 50 PSI. Post a pic of the pressure switch you used.
Geo
 
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Old 06-18-20, 07:39 AM
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Post 6 pics are of head opened up. One is bottom side of top and then the other side with the reeds.
The part that I am referring to as unloader is the far left of the manifold with the gauges. Here is a photo of the pressure switch I replaced.



 
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Old 06-18-20, 08:47 AM
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I tried your suggestion of opening the drain valve slowly when it first stops and the tank went completely empty and still would not start up, it would clunk like it's trying to but too much back pressure.
 
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Old 06-18-20, 10:39 AM
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Hi, that fitting to the left of the regulator appears to be the mechanical safety valve, what is the part# ? I canít find any info for that mdl# 4YD76-4 compressor only 4YD76. How did that pressure switch mount?
Have you tried to contact their tech support?
Geo
 
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Old 06-18-20, 11:20 AM
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The one that was in there was THB-Y06 T102N 1/8" NPT
CRN 0G10654.5 150PSI

From the pdf manual I have on the unit, I ordered a TIA-4150 which was a 1/4" NPT 150PSI
CRN 06063912C

I got this used, and from the differences in the valve size, I believe the manifold was replaced at one time.
This was working fine when I got it and for about another 2 years until it started to have problems restarting at cut-in.

The model number on the pdf manual says 4YD76.

I don't know if you saw my previous post, but I opened the drain valve and let it get all the way empty and it still would not cut-in, just getting the clunk sound like too much back pressure, only problem is, that 0 air in tank.

For the pressure switch, if you look at post 11, is a hose that comes off the manifold below the air gauges to the plastic housing just to the right of the blue label. It is right inside the housing.
 
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Old 06-18-20, 04:51 PM
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Hi, according to post #1 the mdl# is 4YD76-4 , that # does not show up on the PDF owners manual there is no 4 in that mdl#, where does that hose connect under the housing?
is the pic in post 11 actually your compressor?, post a pic of what is actually under that housing.
Geo
 
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Old 06-18-20, 05:48 PM
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The mdl# on the tag on the unit shows 4YD76-4 and can be seen in the attached photo which also shows the pressure switch. Photo in post 11 is the actual unit.



Inside cover - pressure switch - motor moved

Inside cover - everything connected - yellow wire connects to pressure switch
 
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Old 06-20-20, 05:40 AM
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Hi, is that hose on the right side of the pic attached to the aluminum tube, if so where is the other end of that tubing connected, and also what does the hose connect to on the other end?
Sure would be nice to have the real owners manual.
Geo
 
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Old 06-20-20, 10:13 AM
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Yes, the rubber hose is connected to the aluminum tube. Tube comes off the head, connects to rubber hose, to check valve in tank as seen in post#11.

Here is a pdf of a manual but not sure if it is the right model because the manifold is different and the power switch is in the plastic housing.

 
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Old 06-20-20, 01:02 PM
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Hi, that manual is definitely not for that compressor, it shows a pressure switch and regular outside of the housing, which I am more familiar with, you said it will run with the drain open , will it continue to run until you turn it off ? that parts breakdown doesnít show an unloader, I really donít know what to tell you, try and call their tech support and see if they can be of some assistance, keep us posted.
Something else I just found and not familiar with is,
Very small, fractional HP air compressors, may have no visible unloader valve. Some of these have a small hole in the line from the pump to the tank that is often under the cover. That hole is bleeding air all of the time the compressor is running, and then, when the compressor stops, that hole, the unloader for that compressor, continues to bleed air until all the air over the piston is gone. Then the bleeding of air should stop as long as the tank check valve is working!
Geo
 
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Old 06-20-20, 02:06 PM
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I have seen other manufacturers (Porter Cable, Devilbiss) that look exactly like my Westward but can't find the model number for those. I thought I might be able to find a manual for one of those for use in troubleshooting. The motor has a Devilbiss tag on it.

Normally the compressor will run for about 27 secs (50psi) and stop with the drain closed. With it open, it ran for 90 secs before I turned it off, I didn't want it running too long.

Also, ran it until it stopped at 50 psi, left it on and opened the drain valve, it would not restart even though the tank eventually had to air at all. That doesn't seem like a back pressure issue if there is no air in the tank. It would just clunk like it wants to start but can't.
 
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Old 06-21-20, 05:32 AM
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Hi, you have replaced the pressure switch, however that is the only thing that is going to shut that compressor off, where does the other end of that hose connect? I would suggest removing that switch from the hose, start the unit up and let it run for a minute or so to be sure itís not restricted, reconnect the switch, if that didnít make a difference I would try jumping the pressure switch out, remove the 2 wires and connect them together and while watching the pressure gauge see if you can build pressure to around 100 PSI, if so , shut it off ,drain some air and start it up again.
Any chance you can post a video of the operation?
Geo
 
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Old 06-21-20, 09:37 AM
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The hose from the pressure switch connects to the manifold that has the 2 gauges, pressure relief valve, regulator & quick connect. The manifold attaches to the tank. Before I pull this apart again, here is a video of how it is acting. As you can see in the video, it stops running but tries to restart. I left it on and opened the drain and it still would not restart even when the tank went empty.

https://youtu.be/jgD52Sdo1hk
 
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Old 06-21-20, 10:08 AM
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Hi, nice video , I really donít know what to say, itís obvious that the pressure switch is call, I assume if you shut the switch off that noise would stop, it maybe time to invest in a new compressor, keep me posted if you should find a solution.
Geo
 
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Old 06-21-20, 11:09 AM
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Yes, the clunking noise will stop when the switch is turned off. When the power switch is turned back on, it will run again for another 5psi before it stops and the clunking starts. This can be done until the tank reaches full pressure.

What were you saying about the pressure switch in your last post?
 
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Old 06-21-20, 11:54 AM
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Do you know if pancake compressors have any thermal protection? Attached is a not so clear photo of something tie wrapped on the motor windings.



 
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Old 06-21-20, 12:30 PM
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It should say on the motor name plate ,if there is one, if it thermally protected , are there any wires connected to that part? Looks like something written on it but I canít make it out ,My statement about the pressure switch was to remove the wires from it and jump them out to see if you could build pressure up to 100PSI , be sure to watch the gauge.
Geo
 
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Old 06-24-20, 01:52 PM
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Ok, that part is a thermal protector. I have removed it and it is getting to full psi, shutting off until cut-in psi and runs again to cut-out psi. Now I have to determine is the part is faulty or if I am running too hot. Here are some pics of the part, the first one is a larger of the last pic I posted, the second one is of it turned upside down. Of course, they mounted it with the writing side down!




Thanks for your help Geo......
 
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Old 06-25-20, 04:41 AM
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Hi, so you removed and jumped the wires out and it runs as it should , sure points to it, is there any label on the comp that states the Full load current (FLA) you will need a clamp on amp meter to see how many amps the motor is actually drawing and if it is in specs.
does it turn over freely by hand ? it seems odd that thermal unit short cycles so rapidly, normally when they heat up it takes a bit of time to cool before the reset.
https://www.thermtrol.com/products/t...protectors/7am
Geo
 

Last edited by Geochurchi; 06-25-20 at 05:19 AM.
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Old 07-13-20, 01:18 PM
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Yes, it appears to run properly with the thermal protection removed.
It turns freely, and I do not have an amp meter.

Could not find any info on FLA rating. Nothing on the outside or on the motor itself. I did find part numbers on the motor and tried an internet search, but still came up with nothing.

ECM motor
p/n - E00091-18
m/n - UI-351200-01K01

Devilbiss p/n - D27098
 
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Old 07-13-20, 02:58 PM
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Hi, here is the CS # 330 497 4148 have the number on the protector handy when you call and see what they say, itís worth a try.
That pressure switch has a rating of FLA 15 amps .
One thing I just thought of is , have you checked to be sure the terminals and connections are tight on that protector, itís strange that it would be cycling on and off that quick.
Geo
 
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Old 07-14-20, 04:55 PM
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What is CS# ?

Connections were good, t was soldered on.
 
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Old 07-14-20, 06:26 PM
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Sorry, CS = customer service, do you have a motor shop near you?
Geo
 
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Old 07-17-20, 12:43 PM
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Hi, info I got from Thermtrol

.The 7AM214A or B5, 135C device is available here in the United States.

Thanks,

Keith



Keith Kamerer

Account Manager

Thermtrol Corporation

Your Thermal Protection and Wire Harness Partner

8914 Pleasantwood Ave., NW

N. Canton, OH 44720 USA

Phone: (330) 497-4148 X 104

Mobile: (330) 605-8132

Fax: (330) 497-4189

[email protected]

www.thermtrol.com
 
  #36  
Old 07-17-20, 05:20 PM
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Yes, I also got the same person but they only sell to OEM manuacturers with minimum $250 order.
 
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Old 07-18-20, 12:46 PM
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Hi, well thatís not good , looks like you will be running it without it, may not be a real problem if itís not continuously running and you are aware of it.
Geo
 
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