concord 4 and 4-wire smokes


  #1  
Old 09-18-07, 10:52 PM
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concord 4 and 4-wire smokes

Hi gang! GE support says I need a snapcard (60-756) for 4-wire smokes, but I wanted to run it past you guys before I write the check. I don't see what capability the snapcard would give me that I shouldn't already have.

I replaced an old control panel with a Concord 4. The pre-existing sensors were left in place. All work great with the exception of the 3 smokes (449C's). A power supervision module with resistor are connected to the last one. The two wire smoke option for the Concord is enabled. zones 1-3 are doors, zones 4-6 are PIRs, and it's my understanding 7 AND 8 are to be setup for smokes.

I'm using a paperclip to trip zones 7 and 8 by shorting terminals 22 and 23. Zones 7 and 8 learn up on partition 1, group 26 as NO and HW as I believe they should, but immediately go into alarm, which I can't clear unless I kill power and delete the zones. 1+code two times doesn't help.

It's wired as follows:
terminal 22: smoke detector ground / alarm loop green wire
terminal 23: alarm loop yellow wire - zone 7
terminal 24: smoke detector power - zone 8

Also, I don't know if this means anything. But I see the following on the smokes. Using a magnet for the sensitivity test doesn't affect it.
smoke3 - LED does not light (last one...connected to EOLR)
smoke2 - LED flashes every second
smoke1 - LED flashes every 8-9 seconds

Should I buy the snap card, or is there something I'm doing wrong?
 
  #2  
Old 09-19-07, 05:23 PM
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It should work, but don't count on the original wiring colors as a guide. You need to check that the green wire from terminal 22 is connected to the common alarm terminal all the way through on all the smokes, and that the wire connected to terminal 23 is connected to the NO terminal, if not, you can inadvertantly feed back voltage that keeps the power from being interrupted to reset and release the smokes. Often installers don't worry about those alarm terminal wires, because on a true 4 wire system, they are isolated, but in this case, you are actually doing a 3 wire configuration (electrically), so the location of those connections with respect to system ground matters.

Just follow the diagram on page 12 of the manual (figure 8).

And no, you don't need the snapcard (they may have thought you were trying to do two different loops of detectors; in which case you would need the card).
 
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Old 09-19-07, 06:54 PM
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Are using the correct resistor at the EOL on the power supervision relay? You didn't mention changing it, and they vary by panel.
 
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Old 09-22-07, 05:14 PM
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Yep, I'm using the resistors supplied with the Concord 4. I've even swapped it out with another to rule out one being bad.

I've checked the green wire from terminal 22 and it is on the common alarm terminal all the way through the smokes. Same for the yellow wire, it's on the NO terminal all the way through. I've also swapped the location of the resistor at the power supervisor...from the yellow to the green wire - no difference. I never really thought of it as being a 3-wire setup before, good tip!

Zone 7 is now auto-learning and I have to trip zone 8 for it to learn up. After I exit setup, the keypad displays sensor 8 trouble and then fire alarm on sensor 7.

Thanks for the suggestions. At this point, I'm about to order a single two wire to attach directly to the Concord to test the panel itself.
 
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Old 09-22-07, 10:53 PM
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I wouldn't waste my money on another smoke. I think I know what you did. A couple of other people have had this issue learning in smoke detectors on concord systems.

Smoke detectors are a Normally Open contact which is the reverse of standard burg zone inputs.

The easy way to properly learn in the smoke loop is to disconnect the field wiring from the input. Put a spare resistor from the zone input to the ground terminal. This is the normal open configuration that you need to start with.

When you run the learn command for the zone input, you use a jumper to short across the resistor, this sets the alarm state without having to mess with the smoke detectors and their reset cycle.

Smokes are the one area where the Concord programming model sometimes gets a little clumsy.
 
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Old 09-23-07, 03:33 PM
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Ok, I disconnected the smokes and attached the resistor across ground (22) and zone 7 (23). Then I shorted across them to learn in zone 8. Both zones learned in as NO, but it then immediately went into fire alarm on sensor 7 after I exited from the system configuration menu (smokes were still not attached). I guess that rules out the smokes, huh?
 
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Old 09-23-07, 06:53 PM
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Honestly, my gut tells me that this is some programming or basic hardware configuration issue that we can't see, and you don't know to describe. I don't think the alarm panel hardware is your problem. This has the feel of a programming/operation issue.

You are reaching the limits of diagnosis via second hand information.

(Fire alarms "latch", by the way, so it's not surprising that the alarm remained after exiting programming. The question is did it reset and clear?)
 
 

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