Ademco Vista 10SE 5808 Smoke detector trouble

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Old 02-04-09, 09:07 PM
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Ademco Vista 10SE 5808 Smoke detector trouble

Hey guys. Bought my house a few months ago that had an old Vista 10-SE
system installed that works fine on the security side, but always gave
device troubles on both 5808 smoke/fire detectors (there were 2). Those 5808
units self-test buttons worked fine, and they seemed to actually work as
stand alone smoke detectors, but the system would never recognize them in
test mode and every 24 hours or so would register the "check" device errors
on the panels throughout the house. I tried repeatedly to enroll and
re-enroll them but they never would send their serial number upon tripping,
and entering them manually didn't seem to help either. I figured the
wireless transmitters had gone out or something, so I deleted both of them
from the supervised RF mode, and just let them hang as stand alone units.
Then this week I bought a brand new 5808 in the box thinking I would
reinstall just one so I would have at least one in the panel system with the
big loud horns and strobes. Well, yesterday I went in and totally deleted
the two old 5808's from the system, and re-enrolled just the new one.
Everything seemed to go smoothly, tripped the test button and it filled in
the SN, assigned alpha, etc. Then after I exited, it tested ok and displayed
in the code+5 test mode. So I mounted it, thinking everything was fine.
Then today when I came home from lunch, the panel was giving the old "check"
device# error, and on the alpha pad had the Fire trouble code. I tried the
test button, batteries in and out, etc - even rebooted the whole Vista panel
with backup battery out. Nothing. So I went back into the programming mode,
and everything seemed fine, but just in case I deleted the serial number and
tried to trip it to let it insert it again and it never would - batteries
out for several minutes, in and out of the tamper mounting ring, etc.
Nothing. So I deleted the whole device entry, and just for a whim, dragged
out one of the old ones that would never respond before, and amazingly it
fired right up,and even sent its serial number into the enrollment
automatically. It wouldn't ever test though when the panel was put into test
mode. The new one simply will not send its number or respond in test (code
+5) mode at all now (it does still do its own test when the recessed button
is pressed) - maybe the battery has to be out for over 24 hours? Anyway, I
was just wondering if there was some special trick with the 5808 units and
the Vista 10SE panels - some particular loop, zone, etc?? I enrolled it
like the old ones - Zone Type 09, RF, Loop 1, I left the report codes as 11,
and 00 - although it is not a monitored system so I wouldn't think that
would matter. I had it as Zone number 17, and put in another as Zone 18
(those were how they were setup when I bought the house), but neither are
working with the actual system. There are enough empty zones. Everything in
the house - all wireless devices are all on Loop 1, and everything but these 5808's work fine. The wireless receiver system is integrated in the 6128RF keypad. Anyone have ideas? I
used to be an electronics and computer repairman as well as a computer
programmer, so none of this seems difficult to me, just not having worked
with them before and having such limited written technical resources has me
stumped on this problem. I have the install guide, operations guide, and
manuals that come with the new 5808. Any help is appreciated! Thanks!
Thomas
 

Last edited by thellmer; 02-04-09 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 02-05-09, 11:33 AM
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This sounds to me like a location specific issue. Sometimes things like wireless routers can create interference with these wireless devices.

The smokes are more heavily supervised than the door contacts, and are thus more likely to show a problem. If you have the "jam detect" feature enabled, turn it off.
 
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Old 02-05-09, 02:54 PM
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Jam detect wasn't set. I tried them with my router off and still no luck. Could it be something related to the 6128RF keypad being the wireless receiver as well? I saw another thread on here that mentioned something about the 16 zone limit on an integrated RF Keypad having problems. I technically only have 9 zones in the house - all wireless - numbered 10-18 since that is how they were setup already, and according to the Vista install guide this is how they should be. However on one of the other threads someone was having problems entering their 5808 as well and they were told the zone numbers had to be 16 or less since the keypad/rf receiver could only handle 16 zones? My system is setup as a "system" setup and not a "local" setup with the keypad (or at least thats how I think it is since I did add 2 more door sensors and replaced a motion sensor a month ago and enrolled them into the system *56 method and not into the keypad itself and they all work fine). I will admit the 2 5808's now that do not work are zones 17 and 18 - the last 2 zones in the setup. The Vista 10-SE is supposed to handle 16 wireless zones in addition to 6 wired zones (which in my case are not connected to anything), so I have enough zones and documentation says they can be numbered anything from 10-63. I just today enrolled 2 5804 keychain fobs directly into the 6128RF as local so I wouldn't have to zone each button and they work fine. Just for some reason the 2 5808's are not working correctly.
 

Last edited by thellmer; 02-05-09 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 02-05-09, 03:36 PM
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the smokes may be to old look at this from honywell


The date code is located on the back label next to sensivity range. There are 4 numbers that represent when the unit was manufactured. *E.G.: 9041 = (*9* for 1999, *4* for April, *1* for first week of the month).


Drift Compensation refers to the detector's automatic adjusting of its alarm sensitivity. The microprocessor allows the detector to automatically maintain proper operation at factory calibrated detection levels, even when sensitivity is altered due to the presence of contaminants settling into the unitís smoke chamber. If the detector can no longer adjust to meet these parameters then it will report a Maintenance condition.
 
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Old 02-05-09, 04:18 PM
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The limit is not the wireless receiver in the keypad. The limit is the one built into the Vista 10se system.

You only get 16 wireless devices on one of these systems (zones 10 -25).

I dunno. By your description, you are doing the enrollment correctly, and you have sufficient zone slots. The only thing I can think of is to delete everything, and start over, this time enroll the smokes first, on a low zone number.
 
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Old 02-05-09, 04:38 PM
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Well I just got finished trying enrolling the brand new one as Zone 11 and it still didn't work. I removed a motion detector from zone 11, reenrolled it as zone 17 and it worked fine, so then I added the new 5808 into the old zone 11 slot that was working fine with the motion detector, but it still wouldn't send a serial number with either the test button or with the magnet base removal. So I entered it manually, reset the system, and put it into test mode and all the other house sensors worked but not the 5808. So I pulled that new one, tried the old one that I had mentioned worked once before and it wouldn't work either. Batteries had been left in both 5808's all night though (as I had them mounted for use as stand-alone units) So for some reason the microprocessor must be disabling the wireless side or something. They are both 1999 models per the post above, but the one is brand new. I opened the chambers just now to see if they had dust, residue, or anything in them and they both looked brand new with the sensors being crystal clear. Could the microprocessor know they are 10 years old somehow? I don't think the Vista 10SE has a date anywhere in it. Maybe capacitor drift from old capacitors? I do know capacitors can dry out even unused, but I'd think the new in the box one even if old stock should at least work longer than a day - plus it seems to work as a standalone device, just not with the system. Still a puzzle. Just like any malfunctioning computer program or electronic device, the most aggravating thing about it is trying to figure it out. lol
 
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Old 02-05-09, 05:53 PM
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I doubt that the Vista 10se has component degredation. Otherwise, you would have a lot more glitches going on.

I have a funny feeling that there is something missing from this equation, but without seeing the actual install, andything I can come up with is just a guessing game, at best.
 
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Old 02-06-09, 01:44 PM
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Try moving the smoke detector closer to the receiver/ 6128rf (ughhh). Sounds like you are having supervisory troubles. Do your problems happen every 12 hours?
 
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Old 02-06-09, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by alarmTechie View Post
Try moving the smoke detector closer to the receiver/ 6128rf (ughhh). Sounds like you are having supervisory troubles. Do your problems happen every 12 hours?
Yes, every 12 hours is when the alarm beeps FIRE TROUBLE. I can reset it but 12 hours later it comes again. I've gone in and disabled those 2 zones temporarily until I could play with it some more. One of the 5808's is ceiling mounted not 15 feet from the 6128RF, and the other is laying on a table 6 feet away. Neither seem to work with the system even at this range although both are flashing the red LED ever 40 secs and do sound off after pressing the test button. Because they don't even work as close as they are, I was wondering if something internal to the detector was turning off the wireless, or maybe they just weren't compatible with the 6128RF keypad. Is there another wireless solution you recommend better than that old 6128? A true 5881? Some other RF combo keypad?
 
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Old 02-06-09, 03:22 PM
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The alarm panel Polls the wireless devices every 12 hours for status and basically checking to see if the progd wireless devices are still out there. If one or more devices do not answer that zone/s will go into trouble/check a 5881, 2 or 3 receiver is definetly recommended. Make sure it is not mounted in the basement, closet, next to electrical or close to home wireless computer network and you will be fine.
 
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Old 02-06-09, 08:10 PM
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I may just have to buy a 5881 receiver and see what happens. It's just weird because the 5808's were already in the house and programmed into the panel when I moved in - just reporting trouble errors - but clearly labeled on the original installation paperwork from years ago. The 6128RF was also original and works fine with all the other 5800 devices throughout the house - I even added some new door sensors without incident. So at some point in the past the system must have worked with the 5808's. The new old stock 5808 I bought is identical to the old ones and still had the plastic 'pull to activate' tab between batteries, shrink wrap, etc. (I did put in brand new batteries though since I didn't figure 10 year old batteries would still be good for long even unused). So I do not doubt it was new and never used. Looking at the 5808 itself there doesn't appear to be any way to adjust anything. I did discover that on one of the old ones, if I remove the batteries, short across the metal terminal tabs for a few seconds, then put them back in that it will send its serial number during enrollment (the new one will not). However even after sending the enrollment serial number, once you exit the programming mode it will not trip the horns in the QED test mode nor disappear in sniffer mode so it's as if the panel just isn't programmed right to recognize them, or else the 6128 doesn't see them, or they aren't sending out their signals. There isn't a program *xx setting that would affect smoke detectors is there?
 
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Old 02-07-09, 06:42 AM
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The panel only other field in programming other than zone programming that can affect wireless is *22 make sure you didn't accidently mess with that field while exiting program mode. There should be a 2 in there. Never was a fan of the keypads with the built in receivers. If you buy a receiver make sure its a 'M' receiver, unless you plan on upgrading your alarm in the future then get the 'H' receiver.



You could try defaulting the 6128RF keypad.

Power the keypad down then up.
Hold 1 and 3
00 -- should flash
press 9 then 1
Hit the * two times to make sure you are out of programming.


See if this solves the issue.
 
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Old 06-04-09, 10:21 AM
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Thellmer, did you ever get your smokes to work? I have a similar problem with my 5808w3 smokes but I have a 5882 receiver. The receiver sees the signal but it will only trigger the panel very few times.

Thanks.
 
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Old 06-04-09, 02:45 PM
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I did. The only thing I did was I bought 2 5804 RF Keyfobs, and since I was out of zones on the panel, I went into the 6128RF Keypad's setup and just paired them with the keypad instead of he panel, then when I exited the programming mode of the keypad and the system rebooted for some reason the smokes quit alerting me every 12 hours and now test out 100% fine. I'm thinking after I went into the Keypad and changed its configuration when I added the Keyfobs, it must have had to repoll the devices to establish a new table or something internally and straightened itself out. So if you can go into your RF Keypad itself and change something, maybe it will do the same. I had gone into the 6128 RF keypad setup before - just gone in and looked around and exited - and that didn't do anything differently. It was after actually adding something to it that it fixed itself.
 
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Old 06-04-09, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by thellmer View Post
I did. The only thing I did was I bought 2 5804 RF Keyfobs, and since I was out of zones on the panel, I went into the 6128RF Keypad's setup and just paired them with the keypad instead of he panel, then when I exited the programming mode of the keypad and the system rebooted for some reason the smokes quit alerting me every 12 hours and now test out 100% fine. I'm thinking after I went into the Keypad and changed its configuration when I added the Keyfobs, it must have had to repoll the devices to establish a new table or something internally and straightened itself out. So if you can go into your RF Keypad itself and change something, maybe it will do the same. I had gone into the 6128 RF keypad setup before - just gone in and looked around and exited - and that didn't do anything differently. It was after actually adding something to it that it fixed itself.
I don't have an RF keypad but I have the 5882 receiver. I've even defaulted the panel and started over with my zones but still no difference.
 
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Old 06-04-09, 03:38 PM
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Oh well then you have a similar sounding problem but totally different receiver hardware so I have no idea. I had done the defaulting the panel itself and re-entering everything, changing the ordering of devices, etc. and none of that was any help at all. The smokes definitely seem to be finicky devices for some strange reason. I have replaced almost every device in the house since buying it last year with newer devices, additional devices, etc and not a single problem with any of them except those smoke detectors. And now I'm like holding my breath hoping the batteries last several years since I do not want them to go dead and risk this messing up all over again! Have you read through the posts on the other alarm groups?
 
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Old 06-04-09, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by thellmer View Post
Oh well then you have a similar sounding problem but totally different receiver hardware so I have no idea. I had done the defaulting the panel itself and re-entering everything, changing the ordering of devices, etc. and none of that was any help at all. The smokes definitely seem to be finicky devices for some strange reason. I have replaced almost every device in the house since buying it last year with newer devices, additional devices, etc and not a single problem with any of them except those smoke detectors. And now I'm like holding my breath hoping the batteries last several years since I do not want them to go dead and risk this messing up all over again! Have you read through the posts on the other alarm groups?
I certainly have, nobody seems to know about this problem, especially since it only works sometimes and there is no interference issues. I'm planning on replacing the RF receiver.
 
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Old 07-16-09, 04:59 AM
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I have replaced the old 15p panel with a new 20p, also replaced the wireless receiver with a 5881ENH model and still have the same problem.

I have looked at the zone settings a hundred times and it is set up correctly. I can still see that the receiver is getting the signal from the smokes because when I unscrew them from the base the receiver flashes the red led.

These detectors are supposed to be compatible with all 5800 series receivers so I am still puzzled.
 
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Old 07-16-09, 02:49 PM
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Honeywell has nothing in the tech info on their site regarding this issue.

Smokes check in more often than other supervised devices, but this seem to be a very specific glitch.
 
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Old 07-17-09, 10:25 AM
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I moved the receiver from the basement to the garage as my last attempt to get it to work but it made no difference.
I have ruled out location, receiver, panel, current overdraw, programming. The only things I haven't replaced are the smoke detectors but I don't think two new smoke detectors will behave the exact same way if they were defective.
This pretty much tells me that they are not compatible with the 20P. I don't think I've seen any posts from people getting the 5808w3s to work with the 20p, am I wrong?

I just purchased two keyfobs, not to try to fix the problem because I was going to purchase them eventually, but maybe I'll get as lucky as thellmer.
 
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Old 07-17-09, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by carrerga View Post
...
I just purchased two keyfobs, not to try to fix the problem because I was going to purchase them eventually, but maybe I'll get as lucky as thellmer.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!
 
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Old 07-18-09, 11:13 AM
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EUREKA! The previous owner of my house had not finished the security system but had the keypads already wired. There was also a wireless receiver attached to the panel which was not wired so I figured I'd hook it up to get my wireless devices working. After about two months of pulling my hair to try to get the smokes to work I tripped, by accident, one of the smokes and the system responded, then I went to the panel and noticed that I had disconnected the wireless receiver to perform other tests. How could the wireless smoke detector trip the system if the wireless receiver was disconnected? It turns out that one of the keypads was the 6150RF and was conflicting with the receiver by the panel. I wish ademco would label their keypads in a more visible location instead of only on the circuit board. So if you have the following symptoms: -Receiver green led flashes rapidly -Receiver red led flashes normally when wireless device is tripped -System only responds some times to the wireless devices then most likely you also have a RF keypad. I hope this saves somebody some time. I finally have the smokes working as expected now. Thank you all for spending the time to help me diagnose the problem.
 
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Old 07-19-09, 06:56 AM
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Multiple receivers! In retrospect, that makes sense, it never occurred to me to ask if you had more than one wireless receiver hooked up. You can turn off the one in the RF keypad, or simply disconnect the stand alone board.
 
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