Door Access with Ademco Alarm

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Old 03-28-10, 11:57 PM
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Door Access with Ademco Alarm

Here is the simple version: my client wants a external proximity reader that will unlock the door (keep electric strike OPEN) AND disarm the Ademco Vista 10, then when leaving use the reader again to LOCK door and ARM sys. Its really as simple as that (easier SAID than done?).

NOW, I am mainly an Ademco alarm guy and CAN upgrade this alarm if I need to. Was not dying to go more than a Vista20P if I didn't have to BUT can do what I gotta do here.

ALSO I was going to order a Secura Key Radio Key RK-65KS Proximity Reader and electric door strike for this project. I have done SOME Door access but not "marrying" the 2 together like this.

I am assuming I will have to atleast get a 4204 relay involved here? Any help on this please let me know!

Scott
 
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Old 03-29-10, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by theruckman View Post
I was going to order a Secura Key Radio Key RK-65KS Proximity Reader and electric door strike for this project. I have done SOME Door access but not "marrying" the 2 together like this.

I am assuming I will have to atleast get a 4204 relay involved here? Any help on this please let me know!

Scott
You won't necessarily need the 4204. There's a long-standing feature of Ademco panels that almost nobody even thinks about anymore; but it might serve for what you need here.

Look in the installation manual (Page 2-7 in the manual I'm reading, of the Vista-20P) at the section, "Installing a Keyswitch." If you can make a hardwire zone available for a keyswitch zone, you can use your access device to activate the V-10's arm/disarming throught that zone. You don't need the keyswitch kit: The zone only needs a momentary closure to work. (Btw, I am assuming the system has a keypad in addition to this).

I'm not familiar with the Secura Key Radio Key RK-65 KS Proximity Reader, but whether it uses dry closure (preferable) or voltage output to drive the door strike, it can trigger a momentary relay to activate the V-10's keyswitch zone.

It will probably require some simple circuit-building: A low-current relay, diode, a capacitor and a couple of resistors.
I know some techs who cringe at "homemade" system components, but I've never had trouble with them over the decades I've had occasion to use them. Basically, they're too simple to go wrong.

Let me know if you're interested in going this route and I'll fill in any details you need.
 
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Old 03-29-10, 01:18 PM
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This sounds great! I am not 100% certain we will be doing this but AS SOON as I know, I will order the SecuraKey and get an Ademco Panel out to try this. Look forward to trying this! I'll keep u updated.

thx again

Scott
 
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Old 03-29-10, 04:20 PM
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The tricky part of this whole setup is setting up your access control so that the disarm is only sent for the first opening of the day, and the arm is only sent for closing.

There are ways to finesse this using the 20p scheduling functions, but it's a lot easier if the access control itself can do the scheduling.
 
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Old 03-29-10, 08:38 PM
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Urk!! It didn't even occur to me that scheduling was involved, or that the striker would be used all day. Sorry, theruckman, I'm almost exclusively an alarm guy myself--I should have asked a few questions before I threw in my twocentsworth.
 
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Old 03-30-10, 09:07 AM
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I try not to let customers tell me how they want there system to work--after all we are the experts. I will listen to their requests and if it is something that can be accomplished, then I will do it, but if it is off the wall I will try to offer a more prudent solution. In your scenario, I would lead the client to seperate burg and access systems--and sell it on the fact that the systems do not rely on one another (not a single point of failure).

Just an idea, but could you use a keyfob to trip a relay to relase the door strike, might be a simpler solution.
 
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Old 03-30-10, 08:34 PM
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One more option for you...Any of the NetworX panels and the NX1700 door control module. The reader (the 1700 module) is a data bus device (you can have multiple 1700's) so wiring is a snap. The cards and fobs the 1700 uses are treated as user codes by the system. In addition to arm/disarm capability, you can also trigger door strikes/request to exit as well....

This product was meant to "marry" door control and security together for a scenario precisely as you describe.
 
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Old 04-02-10, 02:28 PM
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GEGUY! Thx man, looking @ the equipment now online. That seems like the way to go INSTEAD of marrying the 2 technologies! I have a $1000 budget, IF I go this route will I find a better deal online OR would a place like ADI carry these (I have an ADI account). So glad u seen this. Please feel free to offer any more info or tips on it. There is an existing Ademco sys (V10se I think). I was going to add a wireless receiver to the Ademco sys to add a couple of wireless contacts to their outside shed.

BTW, They might want up to 25 cards or more SO that many keyfobs was not practical (for whoever mentioned it) -but THANKS for the suggestion

Scott
 
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Old 04-02-10, 04:09 PM
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I didn't think to suggest something like the NX setup because the initial post sounded like you were trying to marry the access control to an existing security system.

For this specific situation, the NX really is the simple solution.
 
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Old 04-02-10, 04:44 PM
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GE sys sounds great!

GEGUY, reading over this GE stuff (GE Security - Home) it seems like a total no brainer to go this route. Here is a few questions/concerns I would really like to know, hoping u can help me out. Please feel free to just email me @ the address below if u want, I would prefer that so we dont hog up the forum:
My client wants logging to see what user came/went. WOuld I need to hook up the GE sys to a PC to do this? I seen a line about "Add and delete users with DL900 software" - is this software necessary OR a convenience?
Please suggest what sys I need to have 8 zones and atleast 4 wireless zones -BASICALLY what do I need to do ONE access door, 2 Keypads, 8 hardwired zones and 2 wireless zones?

Looks pretty clear to me on the GE website and/or some GE Networx resellers online (best I found so far is The Home Security and Automation Store) but just wanna confirm.

Please feel free to email if u want to -(please, no email addresses, it's against forum policy and attracts spambots)

Scott
 

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Old 04-02-10, 06:24 PM
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With the NX-148 keypads, the end user can view the system logs directly without the software. The software is really an installers tool, but if real hardcopy of the logs are desired, it's not a bad idea. The problem with it, is that without careful setup it's actually _too_ powerful for end user use.

For 8 hardwired zones and the other features you are after, you want a NX-8, a couple of NX-148e keypads, the NX-1700 access control, module, and a NX-548e wireless receiver (or swap one of the keypads for a NX-148RF).
 
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Old 04-02-10, 07:08 PM
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Ron, this is excellent info, thx. Not being familiar with GE sys, how is the range on the NX-148RF? If a wireless receiver has much better range, I would be better off getting that, BUT using the exisiting KP wires would be GREAT of course (2 birds...etc..). With current Ademco sys, the range is pretty great (around 100ft or 150ft line of sight). I would be installing the KP pretty much exactly where I would install a wireless receiver so should I be OK? I have 2 shed doors to contact about 50-75ft away. Other than that I am ready to order this stuff and mess around with it asap!

Any suggestions on a particular door strike OR all pretty much the same? I have done ONE of them and a few MAG Locks

thx

Scott
 
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Old 04-02-10, 09:57 PM
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The range of the RF keypad and the standard receiver are pretty similar. It's the shed that's the issue. The linear distance is less the issue than the number of walls and other RF interference that you have to deal with.

That's one that can only be determined by experiment.
 
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Old 04-04-10, 03:14 PM
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Thanks!

Just wanted to thank everyone for the great advice and I am ordering a GE Networx sys tonight. Hope to get it this week. The best pricing I found was on Surveillance Cameras, Security Camera Systems and Digital Video Recorders -any other suggestions please feel free. The only drawback I could find with the Door Access part of the Networx sys was how expensive the cards are ($5-10ea).

Assuming the proximity cards for that sys are specifically made for Networx sys? I need 40 of them SO that will be around $200 alone for the cards!

Anyway, thx

Scott
 
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Old 04-18-10, 12:17 AM
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I got the NX-8 and NX-1700e. The GE tech support guys said I had to get a relay to do what I wanted I wanted to do. I picked up an Altronix relay but cannot get the system to ARM/LOCK doorstrike OR DISARM/UNLOCK (stay unlocked). That is my main objective. Not really the greatest with relays and stuff.

Any help PLEASE let me know, I have to install this thing on Monday!

In case it helps here is the relay instructions:
http://www.altronix.com/p_pdf/RBSNTTL.pdf

And here is the 1700e manual BUT u have to register with GE to view it:
http://www.gesecurity.com/portal/GES...e=Installation Instructions

even some crude drawing would really help me out.

thx

Scott
 
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Old 04-18-10, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by theruckman View Post
I got the NX-8 and NX-1700e. The GE tech support guys said I had to get a relay to do what I wanted I wanted to do. I picked up an Altronix relay but cannot get the system to ARM/LOCK doorstrike OR DISARM/UNLOCK (stay unlocked). That is my main objective. Not really the greatest with relays and stuff.

Any help PLEASE let me know, I have to install this thing on Monday!

In case it helps here is the relay instructions:
http://www.altronix.com/p_pdf/RBSNTTL.pdf

And here is the 1700e manual BUT u have to register with GE to view it:
http://www.gesecurity.com/portal/GES...e=Installation Instructions

even some crude drawing would really help me out.

thx

Scott
Been away for a few days, sorry...PM me with an email address. I have drawings, manuals, programming, etc....
 
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Old 05-07-10, 05:37 AM
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Well here is the latest on the project: upgraded sys to GE Networx NX8E with 1700e reader, absolutely LOVE the system, works great. NOW here is the issue: I am really having a difficult time finding an electric strike for it as it is a "Rim" style door (push bar, I have pics if u wanted them). After pricing a few HES for an ES, which were incredibly expensive, I thought WHY NOT try a Maglock or Electric Deadbolt (EDB)? I have installed a couple of maglocks but never an EDB. Again, just to reiterate, I am only trying to make it so the door is totally unlocked when sys is disarmed and LOCKED when armed -I DO NOT want it unlocked for a few secs then relocked, there is no RTE button, they did not want that, simple lock/arm and UL/disarm. All the maglocks I have ever installed were just momentary de-energized. In either case, could I expect the NX8E working with a MPI206 relay. GE tech support told me that I have the sys properly programmed to keep the ES OPEN when disarmed and closed with armed. Just curious if the same would apply to a maglock or EDB

Here is a link to an EDB I was looking at:
Electric Dead-Bolt Lock with Lock and Door Sensor, Fail Safe - PI Manufacturing Corp.

BUT thoughts on a mag lock would be great too. HECK, will a 1700E work with a Maglock period? It mentions electric door strike but was hoping I can use something else with the MPI206

THANKS to ALL the ALL the help thus far, please chime in anyone!

Scott
 
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Old 05-07-10, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ChosunOne View Post
You won't necessarily need the 4204. There's a long-standing feature of Ademco panels that almost nobody even thinks about anymore; but it might serve for what you need here.

Look in the installation manual (Page 2-7 in the manual I'm reading, of the Vista-20P) at the section, "Installing a Keyswitch." If you can make a hardwire zone available for a keyswitch zone, you can use your access device to activate the V-10's arm/disarming throught that zone. You don't need the keyswitch kit: The zone only needs a momentary closure to work. (Btw, I am assuming the system has a keypad in addition to this).

I'm not familiar with the Secura Key Radio Key RK-65 KS Proximity Reader, but whether it uses dry closure (preferable) or voltage output to drive the door strike, it can trigger a momentary relay to activate the V-10's keyswitch zone.

It will probably require some simple circuit-building: A low-current relay, diode, a capacitor and a couple of resistors.
I know some techs who cringe at "homemade" system components, but I've never had trouble with them over the decades I've had occasion to use them. Basically, they're too simple to go wrong.

Let me know if you're interested in going this route and I'll fill in any details you need.
The problem I have with "homemade" systems is that usually there isn't any documentation. The guy puts it in when he thinks he'll be the only one working on it. A few years later..... I used to work for a company that had a lot of those from the early days; on alarms, access, gates. You'd have to trace the wiring out when you did a service call. Then go back to the programming to see which of the 128 possible function triggers programmable output 2. Always fun to listen too. Click... click click.... click click click, as the relays operate. Nothing like boolean logic with relays.
 
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