Motion sensors Florida

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Old 07-25-10, 06:55 AM
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Motion sensors Florida

P20, 6160rf IS2535

I want to put 2 motion detectors in my garage in Florida IS2535. One as a regular motion detector and one set as an announcer. I read on the internet that motion sensors in the garage are problematic, insects, humidity, temp.
I read it on the internet so it must be true!! Any experience with this?? JIm
 
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Old 07-25-10, 07:13 AM
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Garages are essentially hostile environments for motion detectors, especially in a bug and lizard heavy evironment like FL. You _will_ get periodic false trips, but if covering the location is important to you, go for it, but I recommend going with dual-tech motions that are a little less prone to false trips.
 
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Old 07-25-10, 09:30 AM
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My shop is pretty much a glorified barn. It is connected to my house security system; contacts on the doors and 1 motion sensor [the kind that rules out small animals] I installed the system several years ago and everything works fine ..... but we don't have the fla humidity or near as many bugs.
 
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Old 07-25-10, 04:18 PM
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I thought I spent a lot of time and effort planning this out, but I sure missed alot!!

Would the Optex MX40PI Dual Tech be an OK choice?? It appears to be the most reasonable one (cheapest) I can find.

JIm
 
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Old 07-25-10, 06:43 PM
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The Optex unit should be fine.
 
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Old 07-26-10, 12:25 AM
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Here's a trick I've sucessfully used in very hostile environments: Wire two motions in parallel with each other, as far apart as practical, as long as they both cover the area you want covered.

By "wire in parallel," I mean wire the first motion as you normally would, placing the EOLR wherever you place it; then wire the C and NC relay contact terminals of a second motion in parallel to the same terminals of the first: C to C, NC to NC.

That configuration keeps the zone from tripping unless both motions are tripped simultaneously. Moths flying in front of one, or lizards and bugs crawling across the lens, etc, will trip one or the other motion; but tripping them both simultaneously is vanishingly rare.

The second motion can be a low-end (read: Cheap) PIR and still be completely effective for false-alarm resistance. Even the cheap PIR's are pretty good these days.

As I said, it's best to space them wide apart but I've used this successfully spacing them just 6 inches apart, one above the other in a corner. In a space like a garage where I can run wire freely, I prefer to put them in opposite or adjacent corners, however you can most effectively cover the area you want.

Be sure to seal the housings completely after installation--lots of tiny critters love to set up housing inside--and make note of how your car (or anything else) reflects sunlight from any windows at all hours and seasons. Never place a PIR where it will be exposed to direct sunlight, or reflected sunlight from shiny surfaces, like windshields and car bodies. If a reflection can cast a sharp-edged shadow, don't put a PIR there.

Hope that helps.
 
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Old 07-26-10, 08:25 AM
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It helps alot, seems like a really good idea, it would be a good sticky!!

I'm wondering if things are getting too complicated. I'm a firm beliver in KISS also KISC "keep it simple and cheap"

Maybe a ? can't think of the proper name? beam type sensor might be a better option?? On a brief web search I do not see anything that appears to hook to an alarm system. Is there any that will hook up to the 20p??
JIm
 
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Old 07-26-10, 09:30 AM
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What you are looking for is called a "photo beam" and they will generally cost substantially more than a couple of PIRs (even dual techs). They are also far trickier to set up.

The dual parallel motion trick is a good one, (I've mostly used it for warehouses) and should do the trick for you.

A good test is to set it up as a chime enabled zone, at first, and turn on your chime function. If you get a bunch of chimes on that zone, then you either need to tweak your setup, or that the garage is just too lively for motions.
 
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Old 07-26-10, 05:03 PM
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I'll give the dual parallel a try, I don't understand how it works, but what the heck. I don't understand gravity either!!

Should I use a dual tech for the first detector??
 
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Old 07-27-10, 04:39 AM
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The way it works:

Normally, a motion (like most intrusion zones) is a normally closed circuit. When motion is detected, the relay inside changes states opening the circuit, triggering the alarm. By using two motions wired in parallel, and overlooking the same field of view, _both_ motions have to be in the alarm state at the same time to trip the alarm.

Movement in the field of view will do it, but a moth landing on one motion will not, because the other one isn't activated as well.
 
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Old 07-27-10, 05:01 AM
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Thanks Ron. It looks like if the first alarm is wired normally that with motion it will go off. You don't have to explain it, I will take your word for it.
Should I use the dual tech for the first detector?? JIm
 
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Old 07-27-10, 09:16 PM
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As I've stated in many similar posts: The explaination is for others using this thread as later reference.

You don't really need a dual tech for this. The advantage of a dual tech it that it's actually two sensing devices in one box. The PIR and the Microwave detectors both have to go active to trip the relay; essentially the same concept as using two PIRs.

This is one of those situations where a couple of inexpensive PIRs often gets better performance than a high end dual tech.
 
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Old 08-25-10, 07:57 PM
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I've had this in and running for a couple weeks. But I still need to tweak one sensor. The one sensor does not pick someone up when it is real hot in garage. The other sensor which is lower works very well. I belive lowering the higher sensor will help.
The idea works well, sometimes too well. The mail truck and some other large vehicles will set it off with the garage door open.That is surprising as it is 100 feet to the street. My wife says when I am mowing lawn with the garage door closed that every time I go by garage it chimes.
I like this idea, but may be too much chiming, time will tell. JIm
 
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Old 08-25-10, 10:24 PM
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Uh, Jim...motion sensors are designed to pick up motion. If you leave the garage door open, that's what they're gonna do, be it in or out of the garage.

OK, you already knew that. Here's something you might not know: If you look at your sensors' cutsheets (installation and specs sheets), you'll find a range (typically 40-60 ft) and possibly a claim to ignore pets up to, say, 40 Lbs. Those are _nominal_ values, and do not mean, "under any and all circumstances." Your skinny 5-pound cat can trip the "pet-immune" PIR if it's frenetically jumping after a moth. And the sensing dynamics don't suddenly cut off at 40 feet. If it sees a 50-Lb dog at 40 feet, it might easily see an elephant at 200 feet (I'm guessing here), and farther if the elephant has been working hard and is overheating.

Moreover, depending on the orientation of the street, motions facing your street are suseptical to flashes of reflected sunlight from car windows and other shiny surfaces, that can flash on both sensors simultaneously. So even a small car at 100 feet might trip it.

If you're going to leave the garage door open with the chime on, you might want to bypass the garage zone; as long as you're cognizant enough while arming later to notice the "chime" displayed and un-bypass it.

Now seeing you mowing the lawn with the door closed is a bit of a mystery that you would do well to investigate before arming with that zone active. I assume there were no other openings (pedestrial door or window) open that day? No dogs or raccoons loose in the garage while you pushed the mower past? No large gaps between the OHD panels?
 
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Old 08-26-10, 08:16 AM
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Fortunately you gentleman warned me about the peril's of MD's in garage's and I have these on chime only.Beer 4U2

I'll live with this for a while and see how it works out. If it becomes too much I will eliminate it or put in a beam type detector.

Thanks for all the help. JIm
 
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Old 08-29-10, 07:28 AM
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20p&6160rf various contacts and sensors.
ME again
I have 2 Honeywell IntelliSense IS2535 PIR's wired in parallel as per your instructions. They are on zone 11 with a 6.2k resistor on the first PIR.
I have that zone set to chime only. I have been getting a lot of chimes, everything sounds a chime, far too may to be useable. Now I notice that only the first PIR needs to be tripped to sound the chime?? The 2nd PIR if tripped by itself will not sound the chime?? I understood that both pir's needed to be tripped.
Any thoughts, suggestions, ideas or wisecracks greatly appreciated. JIm
 
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Old 08-29-10, 09:02 AM
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It sounds like you are using zone doubling.

What that tells me is that you probably wired the combination incorrectly.

I'll use a 4- conductor with red, black, green, & yellow as wire color for my example. Red and Black will be + & - power; green & yellow are zone wiring.

Starting at the last unit in the string:
red/black to power; connect the green to the C terminal. Connect yellow to the NC terminal.

At the next unit it the string you will have the cable from the last detector and the cable from the control.

Connect the power wires to the power terminals. Connect both yellows to the NC terminal; attach the resistor to the green coming from the _main control_. Connect the free end of the resistor and the green from the last detector to the C terminal.

At the head end connect yellow to the zone terminal and green to common/low. Connect the power to aux power.

Using the resistors, it must be done this way. Contrary to normal wiring, if you put the resistor at the last detector, what happens is the system thinks that the one closest to the panel (electrically) is supposed to be a NO device, and you get some odd behavior (Like what you described).

Basically, you have to treat the two motions as a single unit.
 
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Old 08-29-10, 11:46 AM
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Thank you for the response. I left out a critical piece of the puzzle? Slipped my mind.
I am 99.5% sure the PIR's were functioning properly, when the tech I paid to program the system left. He did miss programming them as chime only.
This is the part that slipped my mind. I called Alarm System Store tech support and they talked me through, reprogramming for chime only on zone 11. I did not use garage for a couple weeks so did not notice a problem.
I just went to bypass zone 11 (the PIR's) before opening them to check connections and it will not bypass. I tried the other zones and they all bypass except for zone 3, 3 being the other 1/2 of 11!!
Do you see a simple fix here or do you think i would be better calling tech support??
Thanks again JIm
 
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Old 08-29-10, 02:06 PM
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What zone type is zone 3?
 
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Old 08-29-10, 03:42 PM
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Hey Ron, thanks for the response.

I paid a tech to program the system so do not know what type of zone it is.

Zone 3 is 3 exterior windows hardwired with a 3k EOLR so going by the manual would guess it is a type 03, but that is just an uneducated guess.

On the bright side I just learned I can turn my chimes off, I did not know that!!
JIm
 
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Old 08-29-10, 05:34 PM
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There is no magic setting to make those standard zone types non-bypassable. [code] + 6 + [zone number] should bypass the zone.

In any case, with the system disarmed, to tinker with the zone wiring, it doesn't matter whether the zone is bypassed or not.
 
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Old 08-30-10, 06:31 AM
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Well Ron you nailed it again,the wires were crossed, feel free to send me a bill. Or if you get down this way, I'll spring for a nice dinner.

I have the EOLR in the first MD. So it is

White to NC
C is one end of Resistor
EOL is other end of resistor and green

2nd or last MD is

White to NC
Where to put the green?? C or EOL??

I powered down system to change wires. Other than transformer then battery is there anything else I will have to do to power up? JIm
 
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Old 08-30-10, 11:38 AM
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Just put that last green on C (common). The only point of that eol connection is to provide a connection point for the resistor.
 
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Old 08-30-10, 04:59 PM
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Jury rigged wires in right place to test and powered up. Things appear to be working right!! Checked it several times over a 30 minute period. Both sensors need to be tripped to chime. LIfe is good again.

I have things jury rigged so want to bypass Zone 11 for the night. Zone 11 and 3 (11 is MD's) will not bypass. I put in master code, bypass, keypad says "bypass" I enter 11. Keypad immediately goes to Disarmed ready to arm! Same thing for zone 03 ???
JIm
 
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Old 08-30-10, 07:03 PM
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Are you _sure_ it's not saying "Disarmed Bypass Ready to arm"?
Without using the Compass software, there's no settings that would prevent a specific standard zone from bypassing that can be accessed using keypad programming.

If the bypass command works for all the other zones, it should work for this one.

Without you being able to give us the programmed zone settings, there's no way to diagnose this using second hand, partial information.
 
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Old 08-31-10, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by jjrbus View Post
Jury rigged wires in right place to test and powered up. Things appear to be working right!! Checked it several times over a 30 minute period. Both sensors need to be tripped to chime. LIfe is good again.

I have things jury rigged so want to bypass Zone 11 for the night. Zone 11 and 3 (11 is MD's) will not bypass. I put in master code, bypass, keypad says "bypass" I enter 11. Keypad immediately goes to Disarmed ready to arm! Same thing for zone 03 ???
JIm
Jim, this may not be the case but I'd feel remiss if I didn't at least mention it: Are you hesitating more than a second between pressing "Bypass" and the zone number? Ademco doesn't allow a lot of time to think about it between key strokes.
 
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Old 08-31-10, 04:50 PM
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Chosun nothing is too insignificant to mention when you look at the experience of the people you are trying to help
Ron thanks for going beyond any reasonable expectations trying to help me with this. I greatly appreciate it.
I am in over my head and going down for the second time so called my tech, he is coming over tomorrow afternoon.

If any of you gentleman get to Ft Myers dinner is still on me!!

JIm
 
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Old 09-07-10, 06:38 PM
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The tech showed up, it was a simple programming issue.

When it was working I still had an issue with the motions in the garage. With the mini van in the garage, it was hard to trip the 2 motions. Great idea, for an empty garage, but not what I wanted.

When I return from vacation, I will look into a photo beam, seems like the best option.

Thanks again for all the help, it's been fun. JIm
 
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