Vista-20P Communication Failures

Reply

  #1  
Old 04-04-13, 01:07 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Vista-20P Communication Failures

I replaced a 17 year old Moose security system with a Vista-20P from Home Security Store (their tech doesn't seem to know dialers). It is all wired in and working except for the built-in dialer. I wired the X31 just like the old one (which worked) was wired. Feedthru to the house circuits is fine with panel energized or 8-pin pulled. When I run the Dialer System Test (installer +5(test)) I get a Comm Failure message and the phone circuit on the 20P disconnects the house and hangs. Installer + Off will NOT clear anything. To re-establish house telco I must pull AC and battery on the 20P, wait 20 sec and reconnect battery then AC. Cannot clear constant Comm Failure message. I have the *40 = 00, *41 = Central Monitor number, *43 = 4-digit account number, *47 = 1, *48 = 7,7 (Contact ID). I also tried switching Telco Tip/Ring connections on 20P, no change.

Any help would sure be appreciated.

Additional comments:

I removed the Incoming Telco Tip/Ring connections from terminals 23 & 24 and connected a handset to them with the 8-pin connector inserted in the RJ31X and got good dial tone. So I know that I have identified the incoming Telco pair.

I do not see a parameter to set for how long the dialer will wait to hear a dial tone before it declairs a Comm. Failure. My Telco service is provided by Verizon FIOS. There may be an appreciatable delay from off-hook to dial tone. If it is too long the dialer may give up. Has anyone connected a 20P or 15P to a FIOS phone system? Any issues?
 

Last edited by RickNelson; 04-04-13 at 02:59 PM.
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-04-13, 06:43 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 16,275
Received 35 Votes on 34 Posts
Without seeing your actual programming, The best guess may be telephone mis-wiring.

Here's a link on how RJ-31x jacks wire: How to Wire an RJ31X Jack | HomeTech TechWiki

You may have wire "just like the old one" but there are a couple of variations on these jacks, you may have something not quite right.

It _is_ possible that you might have the dialer settings mis-programmed. Usually you figure out this kind of problem by listening in with a butt-set so you can hear what happens when the dialer tries to go off hook.
 
  #3  
Old 04-04-13, 08:09 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: usa
Posts: 603
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The Moose panel was communicating over your digital phone line??

Your FIOS is VOIP, correct?

Try disconnecting all four phone wires from terminals and determine which two have dialtone, then see if you can dial a number [When I put my butset on a digital line, even though I get dialtone (it is deceiving because) I cannot dial out].
 
  #4  
Old 04-05-13, 07:11 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
How I fixed my 20P Dialer in spite of HomeSecurity Store's terrible Support tech

Thank you two for offering advice on my 20P Dialing problem. Yes, I have Verizon FIOS but it is NOT VOIP to the home for Telco service, it is POTS plain and simple.

I had a technician (Steve or Sam?) at Home Security Store try to tell me that there was no way I would be able to get the built-in Dialer on the 20P to connect to my Central Monitoring Service (CMS) through the FIOS Telco system. He argued that it was a VOIP and that I would have to add a GSM capability to connect to my CMS. First, I tried to explain to him that all 9 of my phones in the house a POTS, nothing more. That Verizon FIOS Telco capability has to meet minimum POTS standards, and that includes Modem tones which is what the 20P dialer uses. He would not accept that. I then told him that my MOOSE security system worked perfectly when we had Southern Bell Telco service for 10 years and with no change, then worked perfectly with Verizon FIOS Telco for the last 7 years. He wouldn't accept that. I tried to ask him various questions as to why when I can use my POTS to call across the street to a POTS, neither of which are VOIP, that it works perfectly over my FIOS. He couldn't tell me. When I asked him to try to explain it to me because I educated, I've been a EE for forty years he blew up. Started yelling at me and making all kinds of disparaging remarks, accused me of picking a fight and said I didn't know anything about Security. Which is true but I do know communications.

I then contacted my CMS and asked if they were able to connect with customers that had Verizon FIOS and they said yes, no problem. Sometimes they had to increase their dialing digits from 7 to 10 but that was all. So I put a longer cord on my buttset so I could listen to terminals 23 & 24 (Incoming Telco) in the 20P box and be close enough to work my 6150 keyboard. I started running the Dialing test. Oh, BTW, the tech did confirm my suspicion that COMM. FAILURE keyboard messages can only be cleared by removing both AC and Battery from the 20P, no other way! So I cleared COMM. Fails and listened to the dialer run.

First, the dialer was putting out four 0s from the PABX setting. I fixed that by properly clearing *40 with a *40*. Next I put 0s in for all of the Report Codes (*59 thru *68) Also for Restore Codes (*70 thru *76). This prevented the 20P from generating real Error messages because of my removing AC and Battery to clear the COMM. FAILURE messages I would sometimes get trying different things. After all of this I was able to successfully run Dialer tests without a problem. I could hear the dialer send out the 10 digit CMS phone number, then the CMS respond with a double beep and the dialer do a download and then hang up after the CMS did an ACK of some kind. I would then get a "PHONE OK" on the keyboard panel. The gal that was on duty at the CMS would call me every time she got a dialer call from me. She got her Contact ID interpreter running and verified that I was sending test messages. I then put in the Call Waiting Disable Codes and heard that do it's thing. Since I was no longer getting COMM. FAILURE messages I enabled most of the Report and Restore codes to make sure they didn't cause a problem the Dialer Test.

So, I guess I now know more about Security than the tech at Home Security Store, and I will never do any business with them again. POTS works just fine over Verizon FIOS and I proved it! Don't let Home Security try to sell you a GMS!
 

Last edited by RickNelson; 04-05-13 at 07:12 PM. Reason: typo
  #5  
Old 04-06-13, 03:18 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,493
Received 33 Votes on 25 Posts
Since FiOS telephone utilizes fiber optic cable it is NOT a POT system. It IS more akin to to VoIP than it is to POTS with one huge difference. Ordinary VoIP uses the public Internet and works on a huge variety of of Internet connections. FiOS telephone, just as any telephone system offered by any Internet provider, utilizes a propriety network interface between the telephone sets and the central office of the telephone provider. Having total and direct control of the Internet connection from customer to the CO allows the VoIP related technology to be far more consistent and with far greater "up time" than standard VoIP.

So, while I usually state that using VoIP with an alarm system is a crap shoot it IS different when the VoIP is on a full proprietary network.
 
  #6  
Old 04-06-13, 08:59 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Verizon offers regular telephone (POTS) service as well as VOIP over FiOS.

FiOS may be anything it wants to be from the ONT-FiOS-ONT/PSTN but by law it must provide POTS service to the end user if it is to replace an existing residential PSTN (Public Switched Telephone Network) service. FIOS is a FTTP (Fiber-To-The-Premises) system. My phones in my home are no different that any one else's using POTS PSTN services. I can go buy a phone at Home Depot, Staples, etc. and it works just fine (and so does my 20P).

Verizon must provide power to the POTS circuits during any power outages just like Ma Bell did/does with batteries. Verizon POTS service must support DTMF. It supports all of the * blocking and * servies and others that a POTS circuit offers. In FTTP system, the signal is transmitted to the customer premises using fiber optic technologies. Unlike many conventional telephone technologies, this does not provide power for premises equipment, nor is it suitable for direct connection to customer equipment.

The conversion from FiOS format/portocol is done in the ONT (Optical Network Terminal). The ONT (the box Verizon provides at the home's POP (Point of Presense) converts it's FiOS connection into the various services for the home; cable, internet, and POTS and/or VOIP. The ONT terminates the fiber optic line, demultiplex the signal into its component parts (voice telephone-POTS, television, and Internet), and provide power to customer telephones. As the ONT must derive its power from the customer premises electrical supply, many ONTs have the option for a battery backup, to maintain service in the event of a power outage.

When I was with Motorola I worked with a company which had the first contract with Verison to supply ONT's.

Just an additional note: Just because FiOS uses a fiber optic cable (which is a ISO OSI Layer 1) physical layer this does NOT dictate that the protocol on the cable has to be VOIP. In fact, the signal across it is Light Division Multiplex scheme which would conform to the ISO OSI Layer 2 and can support any protocol. Internet Protocol is a ISO OSI Layer 3 Network layer. The Voice Over- portion would conform to the upper Layers of the ISO OSI model, which ones I'm not exactly sure of. VOIP as it's acronym states, it's an IP protocol which can be used across any medium. TCP/IP is another protocol that uses IP as it's Layer 3 protocol. The ISO OSI model has Seven Layers to it and is extremely effective in defining the rolls that the various protocols play in the overall communications system.
 

Last edited by RickNelson; 04-06-13 at 09:29 AM.
  #7  
Old 04-06-13, 03:07 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,493
Received 33 Votes on 25 Posts
Your last paragraph is the only one that makes any sense. FiOS, as you well know, is a fiber optic system; you cannot provide POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) over fiber BECAUSE you cannot transmit electricity over fiber optic cable. POTS depends upon electrically conductive WIRE and the fiber optic cable from the Central Office (CO) has no wire EXCEPT for buried subscriber line which DOES contain a single locator wire.

Now whether or not you wish to call the telephone signal over the fiber a VoIP system or something else is more a matter of semantics. Absolutely you can use ANY telephone in your home or business, including any telephone that was used on a POTS. This is because the Analog Telephone Adapter (ADA) in either a stand-alone VoIP solution OR the Optical Network Terminal (ONT has the wherewithal to change the analog electrical signals from that telephone set to a digital format. This digital format is then transferred via the fiber optic cable to the CO where it is further processed either to send over additional fiber or back to a copper POTS connection. The connection from the subscriber's ONT to the CO is ALL DIGITAL and does not in any way come close to a POT system.

The power for the ONT does indeed come from the subscriber's premises. The ONT is connected to a combination power supply AND back-up battery. The standard connection uses the battery power for ONLY telephone service in the case of a premises power failure. Verizon (or Frontier in my area) makes no guarantees on how long that battery will supply power to the telephone system although they DO state that it should supply power for a minimum of four hours of talk time. There is NO power supplied to the ONT from the CO.

I don't know about now but in the early days of the FiOS installations any overhead wire serving a customer was removed upon completion of a FiOS installation. That effectively removed any chance of going back to a POTS connection. My installation is underground so the copper was left in place but it IS deader than a doornail.

Bottom line: The FiOS is NOT in any way shape or form a POTS. It DOES emulate a POTS and to a far greater degree of reliability than does an add-on VoIP system. Even if a person with a FiOS connection were to drop Internet services the ONT and power supply would have to remain to provide "land-line" telephone services and the subscriber would still have to maintain that battery backup for use during power failures.

I will agree with you that the security expert that you spoke with was absolutely wrong in stating that the alarm system could not be used with the FiOS telephone.
 
  #8  
Old 04-06-13, 03:33 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 54,166
Received 475 Votes on 445 Posts
Furd is absolutely right about the FiOS system.

There is trouble brewing on the horizon. POTS lines are slowly disappearing. The phone companies would like nothing better than to eliminate the old copper wiring and they are working towards that end.

We have a lot of alarms that are now connected to cable modems. That's a challenge in itself. We have one high end association with like 100 accounts and most on cable modems. The underground lines are failing. We are in the process of moving our customers over to an Intellinet system that is radio based.
 
  #9  
Old 04-06-13, 04:24 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I and Verizon are making the claim that they provide POTS service within the home from the ONT. I didn't say I had or needed or Verizon provided end-to-end POTS. Ask Verizon. No body is trying to put electrical signals over fiber optic cable. The ONT provides full electrical POTS to and then translates (through many Layers) to the optical medium it uses on the fiber.

"The connection from the subscriber's ONT to the CO is ALL DIGITAL and does not in any way come close to a POT system." This statement is totally wrong. Yes, the signals involved become digital in the ONT but that is so a microprocessor can manipulate them. The cable TV, internet and phone connections (All are electrical and use copper in the house) eventually modulate the light frequency. The modulation technique is called phase modulation and it essentially varies the light frequency. That is how the extremely wide bandwidth (capacity) of cable is achieved. POTS is just another interface. All it has to do is go between my POTS phones and the ONT and provide POTS-like service.

Why an I not getting this concept across to you guys? I did NOT say FiOS is POTS. I said FiOS will carry POTS traffic once it is converted in the ONT. All I need and have is a POTS circuit to the ONT. Verizon calls it POTS. I helped design and test Verizon's first ONTs which supported POTS, Cable TV, and Internet traffic, no VOIP at that time. I'm using and getting the benefit of a POTS circuit. The only copper involved is the copper in my house. After the ONT it's all fiber.

What I am saying is real, in place, and has been working for 6-7 years. Give me a call and I'll answer using my POTS phone. Try the POTS capability, it may save you money on the installation. BTW, I'm not discussing the future of POTS. I'm just trying to tell you how I have been able to take advantage of it in my connection to my CMS.
 

Last edited by RickNelson; 04-06-13 at 04:51 PM. Reason: typos
  #10  
Old 04-06-13, 06:56 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 16,275
Received 35 Votes on 34 Posts
Ok, it looks like this thread is kinda going in circles. In point of fact, both arguments are basically correct; it seems that both parties are separated by different interpretations of specific terminology.

Yes, the interior analog telephones, and _most_ alarm systems (especially newer ones) work just fine on lines derived from the Verizon Telco converter unit, most of which have some degree of battery backup. So, in point of fact the information someone was providing that the alarm wouldn't work with the digital phone service, was fundamentally in error.

What Verizon is doing with this system is moving the analog to digital conversion from a central switch to the point of use, and getting the end-user to provide the electrical power for the converter. Again, as long as the price for the service reflects that savings to the service provider, I have no issues.

The problems that do exist with digital derived telephone lines is that some of the Analog to digital conversions do a better job than others with DTMF alarm transmissions, so you can have days or weeks or months of perfect alarm communication; then suddenly have every other dial out attempt fail. This is even beginning to happen with lines where the ADC is at a central switching location.

I know that the alarm industry is working on means to deal with the reality that purely analog telco is fading for the fence, but alarm hardware changes tend to happen at a fairly slow pace, because everything for security and fire has to run the UL gauntlet.
 
  #11  
Old 04-07-13, 07:43 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thank you MrRonFL for your summary. Semantics did seem to be getting in the way.

Rick Nelson
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: