Connecting an External Siren to GE Concord 4 Out 1 / Out 2

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  #1  
Old 06-05-13, 10:48 PM
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Connecting an External Siren to GE Concord 4 Out 1 / Out 2

I have installed a new Concord 4 panel and trying to use a horn shaped very loud two tone siren from an old Morse MDC-16C installation. Since this old Morse panel bell output was rated for 1 amp, I guess this siren should be rated for 1 amp max as it was working well with old setup.

On the new Concord 4 setup, I have 16 hardwired zones (have installed a 8 hardwired superbus zone extender) with 2 PIRs, 3 Glass Breakage Sensors, 1 4 wire smoke alarm and rest passive contact sensors. I have three keypads with one being alphanumeric. I also have GE GSM cellular module - but it draws the power directly from the battery as explained in the installation manual. I have 7 amp rated battery backup.

When I connected this siren to Out 1, it will only chirp when alarm is tripped. When I connect this directly to the battery for testing - it works fine indicating that the siren is just fine.

Thinking that Out 1 is not able to provide enough current to power the siren, I installed a super bus 2 amp power supply with a separate 5 amp battery backup and installed Altronix RBSNTTL relay to power the siren. Basically, I connected Concord 4 Out 2 terminal 10 (open collector output) and +12v (terminal 11) to -Trig and +Trig of RBSNTTL. I also connected +12V Out and Ground from 2 amp superbus power supply to Pos+ and Pos- terminals on RBSNTTL with Pos+ and C shorted together. I connected +12V on the Siren to NO and Gnd on the siren to Pos- on the RBSNTTL. I programmed Out2 as 00410 in Concord 4 to blow the siren without delay when a sensor trips.

With this setup, my siren still chirps when the alarm trips. Relay is working fine as I checked the voltage to come up as +12V between NO and Pos- when alarm trips - I did this measurement by disconnecting the siren. With the siren connected, I see this voltage to drop to ~1V when in alarm.

I am unable to comprehend what may be wrong in my setup and hence, seeking help from you. Could my 2 amp power supply still not strong enough to power the siren ? It appears less likely as old Morse MDC-16C with 1 amp rated Bell output was driving the siren just fine.

This siren is really loud and I don't want to change it unless there is no other way to make the setup work.

Your help will be sincerely appreciated.
 

Last edited by aks2000; 06-05-13 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 06-05-13, 11:59 PM
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I looked at the RBSNTTL -- Altronix did a poor document for the device, didn't even show the relay diagram.

Anyway to your issue. Follow these steps to trouble shot:
1) is 2A enough? connect 2A superbus supply 12V directly to siren's 12V, then touch siren's Gnd to panel GND, bypassing the RBSNTTL. If it works then 2A is enough and relay is questionable.
2) Why couldn't you connect relay's pos+ and neg- directly to panel battery with C to pos+? why need to use 2A superbus supply?

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Old 06-06-13, 07:24 AM
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I didn't make it clear in my early post.
2) I see that you are installing a remote superbus 2A supply/battery near the external siren -- nothing wrong with this if indeed the siren needs more than 1A.

Back to the RBSNTTL relay. Why it has too many pins? Desn't a normal relay need only trigger+, trigger--, C, NO, NC? why does it need pos+ and neg--? I think this is some sort of opto-isolator trigger inputs, meaning the trig+ and trig-- are driving the internal LED light (needs very low trigger current) , and when the LED on, it turns on the photo receiver which drives the main relay part -- either simiconductor or coil/switch.

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Old 06-06-13, 05:54 PM
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New edit:

1) is 2A enough? connect 2A superbus supply 12V directly to siren's 12V, then touch siren's Gnd to 2A supply GND, bypassing the RBSNTTL. If it works then 2A is enough and relay is questionable. If it not then 2A supply is bad.
 
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Old 06-11-13, 10:33 AM
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I connected the Siren directly to +12V out and Gnd of Superbus 2000 power supply module and it still just chirped. The voltage across these two terminals dropped to .5v when the siren was connected. So, it appears that 2 amp output of the power module is not enough to drive this siren. I am still amazed how it was working with the old Morse MDC-16C panel, the total output for which was rated at 800 ma only.

But if I connect the siren to the +12V post of the 5 amp rated battery directly, it works just fine. Is it a good idea to connect the siren directly to battery post instead of power module output ? The Siren and the battery will be connected in series with C and NO terminals of the RBSNTTL , which will be triggered by Out 2 open collector output of Concord 4 panel. The 5 amp battery will still be charged by the Superbus 2000 power module - it is just that siren will always run on the battery directly when in alarm.

Please suggest if I should do it or not ?

As an alternative, I am looking at SD-30W siren from DSC, which is rated at 1.1 amp to produce 120 db. Can someone please comment if this siren is loud enough to shake the neighborhood when installed in the attic near an air vent ?

Finally, I tested RBSNTTL with a less powerful pizzo siren PR-DOBERMAN+ and RBSNTTL works just fine when triggered by out 2 of concord 4.

Thanks for your help.
 
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Old 06-11-13, 09:37 PM
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I wanted to check how much current this siren draws and put a multimeter in series with +12V output of the power module and the siren with nothing else in between. I saw that it was drawing 2.3 amps - slightly above the capacity of the power module, but to my amazement - the siren also started screaming properly. When I connected the siren directly to the +12V and Gnd terminals of the power module, it just produced feeble blup..blup sound.

What is the significance of this observation ? Does putting the multimeter in series adds some resistance thereby reducing current drawn and prevents power supply output from shutting down ? When I measure the ohms across siren red and black wires - it shows up as infinite resistance ( open).

Shall I try with a resistor in series with the siren when I connect it to power supply and RBSNTTL ? Is there any implication of connecting the siren this way ?

Please help with your expert advise. Thanks.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 02:44 AM
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Looking carefully at how you describe connecting the relay; you only need to use either + or - trigger, not both. Also, make sure that your configuration for the output will send a steady voltage, not a pulsing one.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 10:08 AM
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I connected Out 2 of Concord to Trig- of RBSNTTL. Trig+ is connected to Pos+ (which in turn is connected to +12v of power supply) as advised by the RBSNTTL installation manual. This will ensure that when Trig- is switched to ground by Out 2 of Concord in alarm condition, a current will flow through the trigger inputs of RBSNTTL causing relay to engage. I checked this connection with connecting a low power Siren to RBSNTTL relay terminals ( NO and C ) in series with 12V power supply and it works. If I leave Trig+ open, it doesn't work.

When I connect the high power siren in the same way, then it doesn't work (produces intermittent blup-blup sound). As I mentioned before, when I added the amp meter in series with this siren to measure the current drawn - then even this high powered siren started working. That's why I am concluding that if I add some resistance in series with the siren to limit the current , it may solve my problem.

One thing I am confused about is that when I try to measure the resistance between siren terminals (not connected to anything), it shows as open. I was expecting this to show as ~6 ohms as the siren was seen drawing 2.3 amp across 12V power supply. Could this be because siren internal circuit is completed only when 12V is applied - like switching on a transistor or something ?

Anyway, should I attempt to limit the current by adding a resistor in series OR replace this siren when something like DSC SD-30W which draws 1.1 amp to produce 120db sound ?

Thanks for your help and attention.
 
  #9  
Old 06-12-13, 12:39 PM
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If you really want the siren scream to the max, then: connect it directly to the 5A battery that you have, and have the 2A module doing the charging. To be safe, you should add a 3 or 4 amp fuse between the batt and relay.

If you wil happy with slightly less screaming, then add a 10watts 2 ohms resistor betwwen relay and 2A module.

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Old 06-17-13, 10:18 AM
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I connected a 1 ohm 20 watt resistence in series with the siren to limit the current drawn and everything is working just fine now.

Hope this helps someone down the line facing similar issue.
 
  #11  
Old 06-17-13, 12:57 PM
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Sounds like your sounder just has a very high in-rush current (that initial current spike when power is first applied) so splitting off some of the current with the resistor keeps the power supply from getting the hiccups (the solid state PTC devices used in modern alarm systems are more sensitive to this than an old-fashioned fuse.
 
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