Can't confirm wireless door sensors - VISTA20P

Greetings,

User here with lots of electronics "know how", but a novice at working with alarm systems. I haven't been able to find a similar problem on this or other forums, so I apologize in advance if it's been addressed prior - if so, I'm happy to read a link if one is provided.

Background:
I upgraded from an old Honeywell system this past weekend to a VISTA20P so that I could install an EnvisaLink3 (EL3) board. This meant a new control board (the 20P), using an existing RF expansion board from the old system (a 5882-3ENH that is "known good"), and swapping my old keypad for a 6160.

Since my old system worked perfectly, I know each of the (2) wired and (7) wireless sensors are good. Again, being a new system, I had to program everything in via the keypad from scratch - I was able to easily navigate the programming sequences. The (2) wired sensors appear to work: motion (tested) and carbon monoxide (didn't test, but no faults). Of the (7) wireless sensors, (3) are installed, working, and confirmed/recognized: (2) smoke detectors and (1) motion. I need to try the glass breakage again; this isn't a high priority at this time.

At present, I do not have the EL3 board connected or configured for use on the VISTA 20P board. I previously connected and had it working, but encountered the same problem (described below), so I disconnected it, reset the VISTA 20P panel to DEFAULT and re-programmed everything.

Issue:
Of the (7) wireless sensors in my house, (3) of them are wireless door sensors (standard Ademco/Honeywell 5816) using the standard wired NC contacts (therefore, Loop 1). For the life of me, I can't get the system to recognize them, even after resetting the VISTA 20P board to default. In *56 mode, I've checked each of the parameters and have verified that the IDs match between what's on the sensor labels and what's shown on the keypad. When asked to "Xmit to Confirm", I've done everything I know to do: open/close doors multiple times (both slowly and quickly), pressed/released the tamper switch on the sensor, removed and reinstalled battery. None of these events have been recognized by the system and I've done this on 2 of the 3 doors. The display continues to show "Xmit to Confirm" rather than showing the wireless ID.

What am I missing?

Any help and ideas appreciated! I'm going mad trying to troubleshoot. Thanks in advance.

Ryan

 

Starting with the battery cover in place; when the transmit command is set, remove the battery cover, then replace it.

 

No such luck. Here's the sequence I tried:

*58 ("expert" mode)
Zone 10
Get to "Xmit to Confirm"
Open door, remove battery cover, wait ~5 seconds, replace cover, close door, open door, close door
Nothing. *99 to exit

Ryan

 

By your description, you are following the proper steps. There's really no hidden tricks or commands involved, here. Have you tried manually entering the serial number?

 

Yes, I've tried both entering the serial number manually and having it recognize the number, both to no avail.

Ryan

 

I have not tried to physically replace any of the 5816 sensors. As mentioned, they were working with the previous panel the same day I replaced it with the 20P. I've also tried (2) different doors (each with its own 5816). I do not think it is a sensor issue.

I have a basic setup: a single VISTA 20P panel, a 5882 wireless expansion board, and a single wired 6160 alpha keypad.

Ryan

 

Ryan, I wouldn't replace any of your sensors just yet.

I've been working with another DIYer on another forum, who has almost exactly the same situation as you do: New Vista-20P panel, enrolled 5800-series RF sensors that were working with previous panel. He enrolled several RF sensors with no problem but can't get several others to enroll, although he seems to be doing the enrollment procedure properly.
At this point, I'm leaning toward the possibility that the V-20P panel is defective.

Questions: Did you enroll several of your RF sensors, then the panel stopped accepting more? In other words, does it look like the panel is limiting the number of RF sensors to whatever number you have working now?
How many RF zones of any type do you have enrolled now?

If you would, try this: Delete one of the RF zones in *56. Make sure all info, especially the ESN (Electronic Serial Number) is deleted from program memory.

Then try to enroll one of the sensors you couldn't enroll before. I'm curious to know if I'm right about the panel limiting the number RF sensors it'll accept. That would definitely indicate a defective panel.

 

Thanks for the reply and I will certainly try this evening when I'm home from work. I don't think this will solve the problem, but I'll try deleting a single, working wireless zone and entering one that won't enroll. In fact, I may just delete all wireless zones and start fresh (again).

Initially, I enrolled the sensors 1 by 1 - I don't remember the order in which I enrolled them. When I did the factory reset, I programmed the (2) wired sensors, then went to Zone 10 to try enrolling one of the 5816 sensors that wouldn't previously enroll.

Stay tuned... It will probably be no earlier than 7pm CDT.

Ryan

 

ChosunOne -

I tried a few things, including:
-Deleting the zone where an existing 5816 was installed (but not confirmed) and then re-enrolling. This did not work.
-Deleting a working wireless zone, then trying to add a 5816. This did not work.
-Deleting ALL wireless zones, then trying to add a 5816. This did not work.

Just for grins, I then enrolled a wireless motion sensor on my first try.
I also checked one of the 5816 sensors I've been trying to enroll: battery voltage is 3V (good), wired contact functions properly (NC when door closed, open when open).

I ordered a brand new VISTA 20P panel to try and install, which I'll get to this weekend. If you (or others) have ideas on additional troubleshooting, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I'll update after I wire in the new 20P panel and try to re-enroll everything.

Ryan

 

Do you have the older style 5816 [white one] or newer style [brown - yours may be white]? -- The difference being the latch on one end.

In upgrading [both panel and rf keypds] I and other techs have had some issues enrolling the older style. They end up getting replaced.

 

That's an interesting theory. I have 2 old style and 1 new style. Honestly, the new style sensor is on a door that does not open (very old house and the foundation has shifted over the past 85 years since it was installed). That said, I haven't tried to confirm the newer style sensor, but that's certainly something I can try before I wire a while new panel. I can stimulate tripping it without opening the door in order to confirm.

Let me try that and post my results. Thanks for the intel!

Ryan

 

tpring -

I think you've cracked the case! I was able to enroll the newer 5816 in 1 try this morning. I've ordered 2 to replace the old ones and will give those a try once they arrive. It's hard to believe this is the only reference I've seen to this problem on the entire Internet.

Thanks and I'll post my results when I'm able to get the new sensors installed.

Ryan

 

What model and firmware version was your old panel? The version will be on the square chip on the circuit board.

Like Vista 20p 4.xx?

Or ADT Safewatch Pro 3000 4.xx?

Here is another case with the same problem...
Upgraded Vista 20p to v10.23 and *some* wireless devices stopped working!

And a 3rd case here...
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...s-sensors.html

 

Hi Bill,

Interesting - the other 2 threads seem to reference the exact same problem.

My old system was a Safewatch Pro 2000, which appears to have an upgraded chipset. The chipset tag says "VISTA-20ADT w/E2 MICR". This seems to map to a VISTA-20SE based on a simple Google search.

My new VISTA 20P has a v10.23 firmware version. I don't have that board in front of me right now to provide any additional info, but let me know if there's something more you'd like to see and I'll add it later.

I wonder if the newer firmware on the 20P panel broke the ability to pair with older 5816 sensors.

Ryan

 

No I was just curious if it was an ADT thing where they intentionally made ADT sold wireless sensors not work on non-ADT systems. Or some other problem.

One of those others said he replaced the chip in the new board with the old chip and still had the same problem. So that is really weird! I should think all the programming would be in the main square chip?

But maybe one of the smaller chips on the circuit board has something to do with processing wireless receiver information?

FYI - I am the "Bill" on the other site. Having the same problem myself.

 

I seriously doubt it. ADT simply re-brands Ademco/Honeywell (and probably other) equipment.

I suspect your problem is the same as mine: newer firmware versions for the 20P panel are not supporting the "old" 5800-series wireless sensors.

FWIW, I ordered new 5816 window/door sensors on Amazon for ~$18 ea.

Ryan

 

I'm switching the non-working wireless to wired. That always works!

 

Hello...I'm the "other guy" having the same problem who also tried swapping back to my old CPU (that didn't help). I can confirm that the issue is not the number of sensors...no matter what order I try to enroll them after defaulting the entire panel to factory settings, the same sensors always work or don't work. I can make any of the non-working sensors the very first one I try to enroll and it won't work.

The one odd thing about the theory that it's just the age (vintage) of the sensors is that I have at least one example of two sensors that are both ~14 years old and original to the system where one works and one does not. They are both the same model sensor (5816), and their ESNs are even almost identical, so I have to think they come from the same batch or lot and definitely were made around the same time. For these two sensors, the first 3 digits in the ESN are identical, the last 4 digits are numerically about 8100 apart.

It's also not confined to the 5816 sensors...I have two of the combination shock/door sensor (Model 5819, I think). One is original to the system and one is about 4 years old...the new one works and the old one doesn't.

Olivier

 

Are we seeing a bit of corporate greed here perhaps?

Make some of the "old" wireless sensors stop working so you need to buy new sensors?

I'll bet all the new sensors work just fine!

 

Not that I'd put that beyond Honeywell, Bill, but I suspect what we're seeing is just some defective new panels (hopefully not all of them coming off the assembly line).

Regardless of age, the "incompatible" sensor/transmitters are working devices, as all 3 of you can attest from using them in your previous systems. Bill, IIRC, you fired up an separate Lynx panel to confirm your "old" sensors worked.
The Vista-20P panel, regardless of revision number, is supposed to work with 5800-series sensor/transmitters. The "newer" sensor/transmitters don't have revision numbers that I'm aware of, and if the new V-20P panels don't work with all 5800-series devices, then Honeywell needs to tell its customers that up front, and the distributors need to know that and let their customers know, before selling them the panel. This problem is on Honeywell: If some of their V-20P panels don't accept some working 5800 equipment, then those panels are defective. Dealers have always expected to know what a given panel will and will not accept as compatible.

Bill, I'm with you in that I prefer hardwired zones wherever I can get them. Wireless has always been either last resort or things like portable panic buttons. But if you decide to add a portable panic and decide you want to buy it cheap off eBay, you ought to have that option and only worry about whether the device works, not how long ago it was manufactured: Modern electronic equipment made by reputable manufacturers (like Honeywell/Ademco) typically will outlive the user if it's not abused. Saying equipment is "old" is NOT a reason to discount its compatibility.
I don't expect the newer panels to accept 5700 or 5600 or 5500-series wireless, but all 5800-series are in the same generation and there's no good technical reason for all working sensors in that generation not to be compatible with the panels designed for them.

I can understand professional techs in the field just replacing the "old" sensors with newer ones, because the hassle of replacing the panel again isn't worth it--it costs about $60-$70/hour for a dealer to keep a tech in the field. But it's a different situation with a DIYer--you can afford to get the panel you paid for.

I sincerely hope that some if not all buyers of these Vista-20P panels will demand replacement with panels that will accept any and all working 5800-series devices, which is what the panels are supposed to do. The more people who demand what they paid for, and the sooner they demand it, the sooner Honeywell will fix the production glitch.

 

I emailed Honeywell about this issue since I've seen quite a few people complaining about this very same issue on this forum and other DIY alarm forums.

Honeywell tech support emailed back with a Direct Wire note that says the following:

When planning service calls to upgrade or replace Vista or Lynx control panels using 5800 sensors built before 2003, it is likely that some of the pre-2003 wireless devices may also need to be replaced.
Therefore, Honeywell recommends reviewing the system installation profile prior to dispatching a service team, in the event that some pre-2003 5800 devices older than 12 years will require replacement.
Background
• In 2003 Honeywell made a manufacturing process change to all 5800 wireless sensors. As a result of that change, some original 5800 sensors (older than 2003) may not enroll properly with recently built VISTA or Lynx series control panels.
• In the case where a pre-2003 5800 sensor does not enroll into a recent VISTA or Lynx control panel, Honeywell recommends replacement of that sensor.
• If a sensor older than 2003 does enroll into a newer VISTA or Lynx system, the sensor can be used normally.

Therefore, it does seem to be a wireless sensor incompatibility with the new panels. They didn't say exactly which versions don't support the older sensors but if I hear from them, I'll post again.

 

Many thanks to Sterling D. I hadn't had time to poke around the Honeywell Webtech site to try to find this. I've copied his post and made it into sticky at the head of this forum.

 

I've found out that panels with date code of T181 or later will support the older sensors. I haven't received word on the beginning date code for when the panels that don't support the older wireless first were made. I will update once I hear from Honeywell.

 

Is there another brand of security system for which their wireless sensors all work?

And the manufacturer stands behind their products?

 

Thanks Sterling and all. I just got my second new panel, and it's having the same issues. I can also confirm that it's definitely only some of the older sensors. 6 of the original 15 sensors installed with the system in 2001 work, and all of the 16 sensors installed after that (and most likely after 2003) work fine. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to which of the older sensors work and which do not. I have some that are very close in ESN sequence and one works and the other doesn't. I'm not sure if it's the date code, but the closest thing I can find on the front of my second new panel is a sticker that says "SAVS20P5 Y118 P"...perhaps the Y118 is an earlier date code than T181?

 

Yes, on the date codes, the letter is the year and the 3-digit number is the day of the year so it seems you got another panel that was in the batch that doesn't support the older wireless sensors.

You should have your seller confirm they are sending you a panel that will support the older sensors as there certainly are tons of versions that do support all Honeywell wireless sensors.

 

I was reading about the Honeywell warranty to see if this wireless defect on the brand new Vista 20p is covered or not and at the bottom of the page are manufacturing date codes!

U.S. Product Warranty - Honeywell Intrusion and Communications

 

Okay, I received another update from Honeywell.

Only panels that are date code Y000 (January 1st of this year) to Y181 (June 30th of this year) will not support the pre-2003 sensors.

I would think you can ask your seller to get you a panel outside of that date code range if you want to make use of all of your existing wireless sensors.

 

Hi all,

Just a final update from me (the OP)...

I received 2 new 5816 sensors and they enrolled immediately. So the board and sensors were certainly incompatible, as discovered by Sterling D. Certainly frustrating and I wish I had many hours of my life back that were spent troubleshooting, but c'est la vie.

Everything is working now as it should! Good luck out there.

Ryan

 

I just had this same issue with a new Vista 20p (Y date code in the bad range) that I am using to replace an old ADT panel. I have a bunch of older wireless sensors and it took me a while to find out that the Vista 20p boards from earlier this year do not enroll some (most?) older wireless sensors.

I bought a used ebay board from 2014 (X date code) with 9.18 firmware (this board was supposed to work but did not power up). I put the 9.18 firmware chip into the 2015 Y board and it did not enroll the old sensors but everything else worked (including new sensors). I had to fix the ebay "X" board (the crystal was bad!!) using the crystal from the "Y" board (took a while to find this), and I put the 10.23 chip into the X board, and everything worked!.

So it is not a firmware issue (i.e. 10.23 CAN enroll older sensors if it is in the right board), but as others suspected it is something in the way the board is set up, configured or built. The board is exactly the same (same part number on the board copper, same part number before the date code). I did some rough checking but I could not see any obvious differences in components or resistor values. I have spent too much time with this so I will just call it done and move on.. Maybe someday I will compare the resistor values between the boards. Maybe there is some configuration on the eeprom chip that is different between builds? (I am temped to swap the eeprom chip because I have all the SMD soldering stuff to do this and the Y board is all programmed with all the serial numbers and alpha codes for 25 or so zones).


Hopefully this helps someone - It was GREAT to find the info on this board about this problem, because it kept me from wasting more time than I already had..

Thanks
Fred

 

Where does the firmware reside? In the EEPROM perhaps?

Does it say what version when powering up (on keypad)?

 

The firmware is definitely on the microcontroller chip (the square chip that is in a socket). It has internal flash memory in it. The keypad indicates the firmware version that matches what is on the chip when you power up the panel. Some places sell firmware upgrades which are a new microcontroller programmed with the new version. I just didn't want anyone to assume they could change the firmware and have it work with a "Y" board in the incompatible date code range. The issue is on the board itself, so if you are having this issue, swapping to a different firmware will not solve it.

 

Well that is REALLY weird! I can't imagine anything other than programming which would cause this problem. Perhaps the firmware on the main chip references a "look-up table" on the EEPROM?

 

To be honest, it's hard to tell. Alarm manufacturers are extremely secretive about their firmware code and hardware components; and often use standard components in rather non-standard ways.

Historically, it's like pulling teeth to get any of them to admit that they have a glitch like this...