Residential hardwired alarm system question

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  #1  
Old 09-14-15, 10:44 AM
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Post Residential hardwired alarm system question

I have had a hardwired home security system installed since the 1980's. It has worked fine all these years. Then, one day the keypad starting giving me trouble. The Keypad is a Corby model 7020 and uses a Corby 25 momentary relay. The control panel is a generic panel, made by Protection Products, Inc. and it's a Model 30-423. I can't find this control panel anywhere on the internet. This is how my system works: The Corby 7020 keypad has a green and red light on it. The green light indicates that all windows/doors are closed and that all contacts on those windows and doors are making contact. With the green light on, I can arm the system by inputting the code. Immediately the red light on the keypad turns on. I can now exit the home and go about my day. Once I return home, I enter through the door and I hear a high-pitch tone which says that I have 30 seconds to walk over to the keypad and I need to enter the code to disarm the system. One day I came home and when I entered the door, I walked over to the keypad and entered the code. The high-pitch sound turned off, but the red light would not turn off. I then armed it again, and disarmed it again. The red light just stayed on continuously. I knew that the system was actually disarmed but I couldn't get the red light to turn off at all. So I bought a new keypad. I replaced the keypad with a brand new Corby 7020 keypad and a new Corby 25 momentary relay. I tested the system. I entered the code. Everything works. I can arm the system and I can disarm the system. However, after a few hours, the system will disarm itself all by itself !! The system seems to work fine for a few hours. If I arm the system just before going to bed, by morning the system has disarmed itself meaning the green light is still on indicating all windows and doors are closed, but the red light is OFF. I can't figure out why the red light is shutting off after a few hours? If the system wasn't wired correctly, I shouldn't be able to arm it at all, and the system shouldn't be working even for an hour or two, correct??? The system works for a few hours, but then for some strange reason, after a few hours I would say like 4 or 5 hours, the system disarms itself. CAN SOMEONE TELL ME SOMETHING I MAY NOT BE AWARE OF THAT WOULD BE CAUSING THE SYSTEM TO DISARM ITSELF AFTER A FEW HOURS? THANK YOU SO MUCH !!!
 
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  #2  
Old 09-14-15, 11:40 AM
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Welcome to the forums.

That sounds like a problem in the panel itself. Unfortunately I've never heard of that company and can't locate them either.

Possibly a member may be able to help or the forum pro, Mr Ron.
 
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Old 09-14-15, 01:08 PM
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How to members reply?

I'm new at this forum stuff. How do other members read my problem and how do I get their replies?? THANKS FOR YOUR HELP
 
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Old 09-14-15, 01:26 PM
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The other members will see this thread, just like I did, and reply if they have any additional information to add.

Each reply will be listed one under the other. Many people work during the day and check in at night.
 
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Old 09-14-15, 10:37 PM
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I used to work on that generation of equipment, back in the 80's, including mating the Corby 7020 with the panel. I agree with PJmax, it does sound like it's the panel disarming itself.

Unfortunately, I don't remember coming across the Protection Products brand, but that generation of equipment didn't have a lot of variation to it anyway. It would be a lot like any of many panels I worked with. I would guess that there are between 5 to 9 wires between the panel and keypad?

Panels disarming themselves in that generation was vanishingly rare, however, so I'm at a loss for what's happening with your system.
It's _possible_ that there is an intermittent short in two wires between the keypad and panel, but that would also cause the panel to occasionally _arm_ itself as well as disarming. If your system hasn't armed itself yet, then that probably isn't the cause.

Be patient and some other old-school tech may be able to help. Remember this is an all-volunteer site and it may take some time.
 
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Old 09-15-15, 08:53 AM
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For setups like this, the keypad was usually a keyswitch input, where entering the code would toggle a relay to arm and then disarm.

It's hard to tell (especially with not technical references for this _very_ out of production system) just what is failing here. This kind of older hardware had volatile memory, and something like a power blip could conceivably make this happen.

Even silicon has a finite life span...
 
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Old 09-15-15, 10:03 AM
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Photos of my control panel and keypad

Here are photos for you all to look at. I pray this helps you to troubleshoot my problem !! I hope I attached the photos correctly, I'm new at this stuff. Thanks so much !Name:  CIMG4858.jpg
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Old 09-15-15, 10:51 AM
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Additional photos - wiring diagram and corby 25 relay

Here are additional photos..... Wiring diagram (from control panel to relay and keypad), plus photo of corby 25 momentary relay. Maybe you guys can figure out my problem? Thanks !!!!
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Old 09-15-15, 02:30 PM
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Pretty much what I thought. The keypad is a standard access control keypad that's being used to trip a relay that is actually doing the work. Since this thing is cobbled together from a bunch of independent parts, it could be anything from the configuration setup for the keypad, to the time delay setting for the relay. I suspect that the keypad has a time delay setting built in.

I would carefully read over the setup info for the keypad.
 
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Old 09-15-15, 05:14 PM
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Wow...a two zone alarm panel.

It would be helpful if your diagram and the front of the panel were readable. The DIY image system compresses the pictures to fit. I can't expand them enough to read them. You could post them on a free picture hosting site and then link them here or send them to me.
 
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Old 09-15-15, 06:24 PM
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How do I send them to you

PJ Max: How do I send photos directly to you? I don't know how to do that.
 
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Old 09-18-15, 10:18 PM
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The two pictures below are the important ones. You can click on them for full size.
I'll check out the wiring diagram and post.



 
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Old 09-19-15, 07:54 AM
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Simple test: Take the wires off of 19 & 20 (Or disconnect that pair from the relay). Short them (19 & 20) together, and release, this should toggle the system to armed. Shorting again should toggle to disarmed.

That's _if_ this is setup to work like a standard keyswitch. The alternative is that the switch has to _stay_ shorted for the system to be armed.

If the first scenario is how this unit is supposed to work, then the problem is in your configuration with the keypad/relay combo, and it's cycling again after a span of time.

If the second scenario is how it's supposed to work, then your keypad/relay combo isn't staying set.
 
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Old 09-19-15, 09:41 AM
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Question About Shorting

Thanks for this advice. I do have one question. Will shorting 19 & 20 cause the control panel harm? In other words, by shorting these 2 wires, might it ruin the control panel and cause the system not to work at all? (Remember, the system works correctly at least for a few hours). THANKS FOR ALL YOUR PATIENCE !!!!
 
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Old 09-19-15, 10:59 AM
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Connecting 19 to 20 will not harm the panel. That would be the normal arming connection.
 
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Old 09-19-15, 12:34 PM
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Will Try It !

OK thanks for this information. You're terrific !!
 
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Old 09-19-15, 01:54 PM
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One more question please ?

Regarding the Wiring Diagram ---- Is there anything in the diagram that looks incorrectly wired? I mean, do any of the colored wires look like they shouldn't be connected to any of the other colored wires? THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME !!! BLESSINGS !!
 
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Old 09-19-15, 09:23 PM
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Based on the Corby keypad installer instructions: http://www.corby.com/docs/man_7000.pdf

Your wiring looks correct. How old is your backup battery? A weak battery _could_ be making the voltage to this thing fluctuate so that the relay cycles and disarms the alarm control.
 
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Old 09-19-15, 10:00 PM
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Backup Battery

The backup battery is new. I bought a new backup battery when I bought the new keypad and relay. Say, a thought: Could the control panel's transformer be getting old? It's the original transformer that came with the control panel . Your thoughts? As usual, THANKS !!!!!
 
  #20  
Old 09-20-15, 07:31 AM
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Wall plug transformers are pretty much of the "it works or it doesn't work" school.

Arming and disarming for this primitive little system is purely a function of what's happening on terminals 19 & 20. The only piece of info we don't have to give you better advice is whether the keyswitch input requires a momentary or a sustained input to work. (this thing is old enough to not show up on a documentation search).
 
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Old 09-20-15, 08:51 AM
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For what it's worth, I used to work on that generation of panel--roughly equivalent to the old Ademco 332 panel--and I never saw one that armed & disarmed with sustained input. _Every_ panel that supported remote stations (keypads or keyswitches) used momentary closure.

They _had_ to use momentary closure to support more than one Remote Station (keypad). Sustained closure on one keypad would have rendered any other keypads unable to disarm the panel, because the 19 & 20 equivalents would remained shorted.

(Just looked back at the OP and noticed she called her relay a Corby 25 Momentary Relay, so that's a clue.)

I agree that a time delay built into the keypad is the simplest explanation for the system spontaneously re-arming itself. If you take wires off 19 & 20, as Ron suggested, and short the terminals with a paper clip or something. You'll probably hear a "click" (probably a double-click) from the panel's ratcheting relay activating.

Leave it armed long enough to see if it disarms itself without the keypad connected, and that will tell you if the trouble is in your panel or the keypad/relay configuration.

It's possible you need to "program" your keypad somehow to make it work with the relay. I seem to remember dipswitches or jumpers on some of those Corby keypads.
 
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Old 09-20-15, 09:21 AM
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Relay and Fuse

To try to address your statement that says: “Whether the keyswitch input requires a momentary or a sustained input to work” ------ My response: I have the Corby 7000 Series Keypad instruction sheet (see link below). Under the heading: RELAY/RELAY MODULES: It says: Use the following relay modules if dry circuit relay contacts are required. Then it lists the Model 25 (which is the relay that I have). (P.S. The only reason I bought a Corby 7020 keypad and Corby 25 Relay is because that’s what my system was installed with and so I figured I had to replace the old ones with exact new ones of the exact same models.) So, because my system uses a Corby 25 Momentary Relay, doesn’t this mean that my keyswitch input requires a momentary input to work? (See the photo I posted of the Corby 25 Momentary Relay, I posted 2 photos of it).

Also, see the photo of the control panel. At the bottom right, it says it uses a 3Amp fuse. Might that fuse need replacing? Just curious.

AGAIN THANKS TO YOU ALL !!!!

http://www.corby.com/docs/man_22_25_78.pdf

http://www.corby.com/docs/man_7000.pdf
 
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Old 09-21-15, 02:42 AM
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You are kind of "over thinking" the problem. Do the shorting test. You need to establish whether the problem is with the alarm control or with the keypad/relay assembly.
 
  #24  
Old 09-21-15, 11:37 AM
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Relay

Hi, I was only trying to respond to MrRonFL and ChosenOne's posts by confirming to you all that my Corby 25 relay is in fact a "Momentary" relay. I thought that by clarifying this that it would help. Again, thank you !
 
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