Installing water sensors with shut off water valve, zone no alarm

Reply

  #1  
Old 03-30-17, 08:32 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Installing water sensors with shut off water valve, zone no alarm

Hello,

I have a DSC 1832 alarm system with 18 zones plus 1 zone on keypad. The system installed by an installer.
So it is 19 zones in total. The keypad zone is the zone number 19.

I have 2 available zones (zone 15 and 16).
I have 9 motions sensor, 3 doors contacts, 1 Keypad PK5500, 2 smoke detectors 4 wires and one 4 wires water sensor (zone 14).
Two years ago I added an EVL-3 where I like it.

I did remark that there is 2 wires connected to PGM1. After reading, I suppose that for the two smoke detectors to reset
them (*7 2..).

My plan 1:
To add 2 extra water sensor in series to existing sensor in zone 14.
Add three others water sensor in series to new zone (zone 15).
So, I will have 2 zone of set of water sensors : up stairs water sensors zone and down stairs water sensors zone.

I find on the Internet a Econet water shut off valve z wave version, but I did contact the Econet company and I got
answer that there is a version that EBV105-UMK-RC which works with DSC system.
This model supports input from a relay (12V source) to open and close the valve.

My question : Can I program the PGM2 to shut off water via Econet valve if ONLY one of two water sensor is activated?

I did find in the installation guide that for [009] PGM output, I have to put 29 value for zone follower (zone 1-8).
But it is marked for all 8 zones. I did understand that I can not specify only for specific zone.

So, I like to get feedback and the solution. I do not want to install z wave way for this moment. I am happy with my
EVL-3 module via eyes-zone.

My Plan 2 :
In the last available zone, I like to add a sensor motion at outside at the door with definition 26 (24 Hour non Alaram ).
Add PGM extension or expander module. Program one PGM to light up or flash a LED light inside to mark that a somebody at the door
outside. So, this zone (number 16) is not alarm zone let PGM send signal to flash a LED light when the a motion sensor
is activated.

Is that possible to install PGM expander to be controlled by zone 16?
Is that possible to flash 12V LED ligth when motion sensor is activated?

thanks,
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 03-31-17, 07:12 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Sorry it is total of 17 zones and not 19
8 zones on 1832 and 8 on zones expander and 1 keypad zone
 
  #3  
Old 03-31-17, 05:09 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 15,986
Likes Received: 6
Nope, you are still stuck with the basic PGM programming limits, even if you add the PC5208. You can select any one or any combination of the first 8 zones to make the PGM work.

What you may need to do, if you want to make this work, at least for your water detectors, is to swap a couple of the higher zones with the lower ones.
 
  #4  
Old 03-31-17, 06:32 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Thanks for the answer MrRonFL.
I try to understand your comments specially I am not so technical. I am computer programmer.

I remarked the limitation of PGM programming.
I read that about the zone follower that all zones (AND option) or One of the selected zones range as options. So, I can not mix different type of zone (motion sensor and water sensor) in the same slot 1, or slot 2.

So I add a 8 zones expander and I put all my water sensor on this slot so the PGM programming will be OK. So one of the zones in this slot will active the PGM when a zone activated.

Sorry, can you explain what's you mean by higher or lower zones?

Thanks,
 
  #5  
Old 03-31-17, 07:43 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 15,986
Likes Received: 6
The PGMs can only be triggered (using zone trigger) by zones 1-8 (the lower zone numbers/the original hardwired zone inputs). You can, by turning the options in programming location 29 on or off, select which of those 8 zones will activate the output.

You can put all of your water sensors on one zone, as long as it is a zone between 1 and 8 in order to activate the PGM.
 
  #6  
Old 04-01-17, 03:19 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
After reading the installation guide, the PGMs can be triggered by zones 1-8, zones 9-16, zones 17-24, etc, by turning the options in programming location 29 on or off, 35 on or off, 36 on or off, etc. respectively.

The problem when I read the installation guide about the option 29 (zones 1-8) or 35 (zones 9-16), etc. it is marked the PGM active when any of the selected zones are active. So if I turn on the option 29 and I put my water sensor on the zone 5 for example, any zone from 1 to 8 will active the PGM.

I do not want to shut off the water for motion sensor alarm.
In my case, in my example, I want only the zone 5 for example to active the PGM and not all zones (1 to 8).

It looks there is no option to indicate that the only one zone or two zone when activated to active the the specific PGM. There is only this option : one of the selected range of zone (which slot) or all zones of selected slot, where AND option mentioned.

For that, I asked myself if I have to add a 8 zones expander and put one or two set of water sensors on it.

Initially, I want to see if I can make this works without adding some thing (expander) on the panel.

Copy/paste from the installation guide :

Section [009] to [011] PGM Outputs
The PC1616 and PC1832 have two on-board PGM outputs (PGM1 and PGM2). The PC1864 has four on-board PGM outputs (PGM1 to
PGM4). The panel has the capacity for up to 14 PGM outputs (8 additional low-current PGM outputs with PC5208 module, 4 additional
high-current PGM outputs with a PC5204 module).

PGM Output Options:
........
[29] *Zone Follower (Zones 1-8): Active when any of the selected zones are active and deactivates when all of the selected zones are restored.

[35] *Zone Follower (Zones 9-16): Active when any of the selected zones are active and deactivates when all of the selected zones are restored.

[37] *Zone Follower (Zones 25-32): Active when any of the selected zones are active and deactivates when all of the selected zones are restored
.........
[41] *Zone Follower (Zones 57-64): Active when any of the selected zones are active and deactivates when all of the selected zones are restored.

* See Section [501]-[514] Programmable Output Attributes, PGM Output Option [29] and [35]-[41] option 8 on page 23
....

Section [501] to [514] Programmable Output Attributes
These Sections are used to customize the operation of the PGM outputs (Section [501] for PGM 1, Section [502] for PGM 2 etc.). The available
options depend on which PGM output type is programmed.
When the PGM Output Options (Section [009] to [011]) are programmed, the system will change the PGM Attributes to the default settings.
The PGM Attributes will default if a new PGM output option is programmed.

PGM Output Option [29] and [35]-[41]
Option Description
[1]-[2] For Future Use
[3] ON: the PGM will switch to ground when the event occurs. OFF: the PGM will switch to open when the event occurs.
[4]-[7] For Future Use
[8] ON: AND logic is selected, all zones that are enabled must be violated before the PGM will activate. OFF: OR Logic is selected, only one
violated zone is required to activate the PGM. All zones must be restored to turn it OFF.

Zones are assigned to this PGM in the PGM Partition Assignment Section [551]-[564]
 
  #7  
Old 04-02-17, 11:33 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 15,986
Likes Received: 6
Ok, one more time for posterity: In an option selection screen like programming location 529, when you enter it, the display will show options 1-8 as not enabled.

If, (in the example programming location 529) of zones 1-8 you only want zone 1 to activate the zone follower you ONLY turn on the option to make zone 1 active, if you want zone 1 & 3 you turn on options 1 & 3.

(Took me a couple of looks to realize that you were using Version 4.6 as a reference, while I was using Version 4.1. Version number actually mattered in this instance): http://cms.dsc.com/download.php?t=1&id=17007
 
  #8  
Old 04-02-17, 04:03 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Thanks for your reply.

In the next months, I have to install a new DSC alarm system at my daughter condo, so in the next weeks, I will order a new DSC system with the necessary accessories and I will practice. After that, I will apply my plan 1 at my actual alarm system. If I have trouble in the programming, I will post my questions and my result, in the same time, I have to read more about PGMs programming and possibility. Specially, that there are many relays compatible with DSC to check or to consider at
Enjoy great low prices in our Relays & More product line at HomeSecurityStore!.
 
  #9  
Old 04-02-17, 04:14 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 15,986
Likes Received: 6
A commonly used relay for this sort of thing is the "PAM-2" or its equivalent (several brands make versions of this relay): http://www.ap-c.com/assets/pdf/produ...PAM_Series.pdf

basically you want a relay with a coil that is well below the current limits of the PGM output (~50mA), ones like this draw about 15mA.
 
  #10  
Old 04-02-17, 04:32 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
In my case, the Econet shut off valve comes with Relay, but I don't know about amperage consummation or limit (mA). Any way, I will note your remark.

I already read in the installation guide that PGM 1 supports to 50 mA and PGM2 to 300mA
 
  #11  
Old 04-03-17, 07:02 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Hello,
Today I got a message from Econet about the shut off valve, relay contact version.

The message :
----------------------------------------
The EBV105 comes complete with a 1amp 12V DC adapter. The EBV105 requires about 800ma max. at 12V DC.

The EBV105RC-UMK looks the same as our standard EBV105-UMK (Z-Wave), except it has a terminal block at the end of itís cable for connection to the 12v power/adapter and a button/relay.
------------------------------------

I did understand that in the relay there are 2 wires, simulate open/close circuit. So I suppose when the wires connected it is close circuit, so the valve it is open. When the 2 wires are disconnected the valve will close, etc.

My question 1 :
How I can connect the Relay contact to PGM? My friend told me that I need a 12 Volt Relay connected to PGM and to Relay Valve.

So, hHow I connect the valve relay to PGM? Do I need another relay to simulate open/close circuit?

My question 2 :
Can I connect the valve power to my DSC panel instead to 12Volt DC adapter? only to get backup power from DSC panel in case of electricity outlage.

Is 800mA too much power for control panel?
Or I have to buy an UPS for the shut off valve?

Thanks,
 
  #12  
Old 04-03-17, 07:48 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 15,986
Likes Received: 6
The aux power max output for the PC1832 is 700mA, and that's including keypads, PGM connected devices, and things like motions/glassbreaks.

I'd recommend using the power pack that comes with the valve, and plug it into a UPS.

That input point: "for connection to the 12v power/adapter and a button/relay." That last sounds like it's looking for a dry contact (switch) input. That's where something like the PAM relay would come into play. The PAM changes state, and provides the contact closure to make the valve do it's thing.
 
  #13  
Old 04-04-17, 04:07 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Hello,

Is this DSC 12V Relay Module OK instead PAM? It is less expensive and in the same place where I will order my DSC system kit.

Thanks,
 
  #14  
Old 04-04-17, 06:24 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 15,986
Likes Received: 6
Yup, will work just fine. I work on this stuff all the time, so the PAM was the model that happened to be sitting on my desk. You just want a 12v coil relay that will close a contact on activation.
 
  #15  
Old 04-14-17, 03:54 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
First, I like to thank you MrRonFL.

I will post my projet. It may be help some body, specially many people helped me by their posts on internet or videos on youtube.

My project : A DSC alarm system, normally closed circuit with no EOL resistors, with many motion detectors, one door contact, one keypad, one smoke detector, two zones of two water sensors each where if a water detected by one sensor of four will trigger a signal to shutoff water valve to shut off the main entry water, IP module to be controlled by remote and drive way sensor or outside at door sensor to chime the keypad (no alarm trigger for this one). There is no need for phone line monitoring.

The system's components are :
1 DSC PC1836 Kit (RFK5500 keypad, Bell, Battery)
5 DSC motion detectors (LC-100-PI)
4 Water sensors 4 wires each (GRI2600)
1 DSC Smoke Detector (FSA-410AST)
1 Econet Shut off water valve, relay version (EBV105RC-UMK-PB)
1 DSC 12V Relay Module (RM-1). 5 wires R/B/Y/G/W
1 IP module EVL-4
1 Door contact
Cable wire 22 AVG 4 wires (R/B/Y/G)

My configuration :
Zone no and label Zone Type
------------------------------------------ ---------
Zone 1 Salon (Motion detector ) 05
Zone 2 Master Room ( Motion Detector) 05
Zone 3 Guest Room (Motion Detector ) 05
Zone 4 Office Room (Motion Detector ) 05
Zone 5 Smoke Detector (4 wires, 75mA) 08
Zone 6 Water sensor (4 wires, 2 in series) 19
Zone 7 Water Sensor Heat-Washer (2 series) 19
Zone 8 Drive way (Motion Detector)24-Hour Non-Alarm 26
Zone 9 Entry Door (Z Keypad) 01

Notes for wiring (IN MY CASE) :
All motion detectors wiring are standard, Red/Black to Aux + / - and Yellow/Green to Zone/COM

Door contact is Z Keypad zone. One contact door wire to Z on keypad and the second wire to Keypad's black.

The water sensor wiring is standard like motion detector, Yellow/Green to Zone/COM and power Red/Black to Aux + / - .
Water sensor in series is connected like door contact for zone and com wires. Each water sensor has it power red/black

PGM1 used to control the Econet shut off valve water by Relay module :
So, Relay module (RM)'s Red wire to Auxi +, RM's black wire to PGM1, RM's white wire to Econet valve's white wire,
RM's yellow wire to Econet valve's yellow wire. The RM's green is not used.
The Econet valve has its own power by DC adapter 1A. It needs about 800mA power where the DSC panel capacity is 700mA. So, I can not connect it to Aux + / -.
I have to add UPS power for it later if I want 24/7 power on.

Smoke detector (SD): In my case, I have a 4 wires smoke detector, there are + + - NO C on it.
Smoke detector's red to Aux +, SD's black to PGM2, SD's Yellow to Zone and SD's Green to COM.
The smoke detector is normally open, so we have to connect a 5.6K resistor between NO (Normally Open) and C (COM) in the smoke detector.


EVL-4 like keypad connect to R/B/Y/G wires.

Programming :
After programming 001 section for zones from 1 to 9 see table before, 006 section for delays,
Section 009 29 for PGM1 and 03 for PGM2. where 29 for Zone (1-8) follower and 03 for smoke reset *[7][2]
Section 013 1 3 567
Section 015 1234
Section 017 1 6
Keypad zone assignment ( in my case the zone 09)
Section 020 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 09

Changing the zone attribute for drive way motion detector, I want to hear the buzzer keypad at zone 8
Section 108 NNYNYNNN

Partition programming, in my case partition 1 only
Section 202 12345678
Section 203 1

programming the output attributes for the two PGMs : PGM1 in section 501 and PGM2 in section 502 (defaults)
Section 501 NNYNNNNN
Section 502 NNYNNNNN

Now, PGM Output partition assignment. If my PGM type is 29, 35-41 for follower zone 1-8, 9-16, 17-24, etc, so, you have to choose the zones selected.
in my case the 6 and 7. So, if the zone 6 or the zone 7 trigger, the PGM1 will trigger to the Relay module.
Section 551 . . . . . 6 7 . (Type 29 follower)
Section 552 1 . . . . . . . Default for Type 03

To change the chime tone for drive way (zone 8) to be different than the entry door, go to LCD programming by
*8[installer code]* than 208, activate only 3, than ## (you have choice of 4 different tone 1, 2, 3 and 4)

Note : In this way, if you have 3 doors and you are activated the chime tone and want a different at each door, you make the same thing for each zone.
*8[installer code]* than 2XX, (XX for the zone number), than choose 1, 2, 3 or 4, than ##

To change the zone names :
*8[installer code]* than XXX, (XXX for the zone number), example 001 for the zone 1
than write the zone name.
After * than scroll to choose the Save option


During my progress and test, I use strobe instead bell. My system was connected to shut off valve, but the last was not connected to water host.

Thanks,
 
  #16  
Old 04-23-17, 12:21 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
How to be advised that there is no power for shut off valve with separate power

Hello MrRonFL,

I did remark the following point : if my shut off valve water lost power (powered by separate source of power), my alarm system does not detect that.
So, when the shut off valve loose power, the valve stays in the last status (valve open or close in that moment).

I like to know what's I can do to know that the shut off water has no power in keypad by displaying a trouble for example or some some thing like that.

I do not use EOL resistor in my alarm system.

Thanks,
 
  #17  
Old 04-23-17, 02:07 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 15,986
Likes Received: 6
The easy way is to plug the power pack for the valves operator into the same outlet or circuit that the alarm system is plugged into. If you are showing loss of power to the system, then you would know that the valve operator.

Otherwise, if you go with the suggestion of a UPS for the valve operator power pack, nearly all models have an audible alarm when AC power fails.

If you really want the alarm panel to monitor for presence of power on the valve operator power supply, you can always put another 12v relay on the power output, and connect the relay connection to an alarm zone programmed for 24 hour supervisory (when the relay changes state on power loss, it triggers the zone).
 
  #18  
Old 04-23-17, 04:55 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Thanks for the ideas. May be, I will consider the first point.

I read in the PC1832 manual that I can add PC5200 or PC5204 module to add more power including extra PGMS. I did not read how to install it.

So, one more PC5204 module, plus another power supply, may be I need an extra battery, it does the job, but it is little bit expensive.

Thanks,
 
  #19  
Old 04-23-17, 06:39 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 15,986
Likes Received: 6
Modular systems are flexible, but the hardware cost can add up.
 
  #20  
Old 04-24-17, 10:15 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Hello MrRonFL,

Can you explain more in detail to implement this option :
"If you really want the alarm panel to monitor for presence of power on the valve operator power supply, you can always put another 12v relay on the power output, and connect the relay connection to an alarm zone programmed for 24 hour supervisory (when the relay changes state on power loss, it triggers the zone).".

Remark : I have only two PGMs and they are already used.

Thanks,
 
  #21  
Old 04-24-17, 03:49 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 15,986
Likes Received: 6
Step one: run another pair of wires back to a unused zone input on the alarm control.

Step two: Connect a 12v relay to the same terminals/wires that power the valve operator. The relay will be constantly energized.

Step three: connect one leg of the zone input to the relay common, connect the eol resistor for the zone in series with the other zone wire, and connect it to the relay Normally Open terminal (which will be closed because the relay is energized).

Step four: program the zone as a supervisory zone type.

If the 12v power fails, the relay will change states, opening that zone input and generating the supervisory indication on the keypad (one of the supervisory zone types will also make the keypad beep).
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes