4-Wire Smoke Detectors on Zone 1? ADEMCO Vista 20P

Reply

  #1  
Old 04-20-17, 05:51 PM
demetrax1's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 34
4-Wire Smoke Detectors on Zone 1? ADEMCO Vista 20P

Hello all,

I am moving closer to my install date for my home security system. However, I have a few questions about fire devices. I have two like-new perfectly working 4-wire smoke detectors (ESL/Sentrol/GE 448CT & a System Sensor 2112-24R). I was hoping to install them on the security system. A relative of mine had an ADEMCO VISTA 20 installed in 1998 with 2 ESL 449CT smoke detectors; one up in the master hallway, and one in the basement.) I know for a fact that the one upstairs was wired to zone 1, while the one downstairs was wired to zone 2, along with an AIP heat detector in the utility room on that same zone. How in the heck did they get that to work? I was under the impression that you could only use the 2-wire smokes on the first zone of any VISTA panel. However, it was wired in such a way that allowed for a 4-wire device on the first zone. How do you think this was done, and is there a workaround for me to go about this? I am familiar with the zone type 54 fire zone reset, but otherwise I'm not quite sure how to do it. Help is appreciated!

-Demetri P.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-20-17, 07:16 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 16,092
Upvotes Received: 21
All versions of the Vista 20 series only allow 4 wire smokes on zones 2-8. It's possible that the zone 1 device is actually a 2 wire smoke (on the ESL smokes there's no visual difference).
 
  #3  
Old 04-21-17, 08:28 AM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,312
4 wire smokes should only be on zones 2-8. This has to do with trigger 17 and the way 2-wire smokes reset. I think trigger 17 does not reset if there is a fire alarm on zone 1?

More...

Search google.com for the following including quotes....
"Do not use 4-wire smoke detectors on zone 1"
 
  #4  
Old 04-27-17, 11:50 AM
demetrax1's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 34
Exclamation

Hey guys,

I had a chance to stop by my relative's house this weekend and look at the model number of their now disconnected ESL smoke/heat detector they have. It is in fact an ESL #449CT. I could've sworn they were identical! The 4-wire smoke detector was in fact hooked up to ZN 1 on the VISTA 20.

I know this because my grandfather (the former relative's house of whom I'm speaking) left some fish in the toaster oven while we were on vacation in Canada back in Summer 2009. He went back to watch TV with his wireless headphones and forgot about it. Long story short, the fish caught fire, setting off the upstairs smoke alarm (449CT) and destroying the toaster (it could have been much worse; thank God the fire stayed localized to the toaster -- the house did not ignite!) In addition, he did not hear the siren go off at all! He remembered the fish later, according to him. Granted, he was wearing headphones due to his not-so-good hearing. Even though that Moose MPI-11 siren driver they had really could crank. Crazy!

Anyway, how did the installer do this? I remember the keypads (ADEMCO 6128s) showing a fire on zone 1. We also had to reset the panel by disconnecting the AC and battery (most likely because a fire on zone 1 would not require any aux power terminals to reset automatically.) Whatever the installer did, he made it work, and I am wondering how.
 
  #5  
Old 04-27-17, 03:48 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 16,092
Upvotes Received: 21
The fact that you had to power cycle the panel to reset the smoke is the reason why you aren't supposed to put 4 wire smokes on zone 1. The reset will not reset the aux power when the fire alarm comes in on that zone.

It will still _report_ the alarm contact closure; but it isn't actually working correctly.
 
  #6  
Old 04-30-17, 06:18 AM
demetrax1's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 34
Thanks, that makes sense. Your responses always help a lot.

Real quick - this topic came up in a conversation I had last night:

So then what if I wanted to hook up those four wire smoke detectors to have them auto-reset when I disarm? I will likely be using trigger pins 17 and 18 already for my remote key switch LEDs. Do they sell standalone external relay/trigger boards? Would I have to trade out my 4219 for a 4229? As I said, I want to be able to program an external trigger as a zone type 54 fire zone reset, but then also be able to have my two key switch LEDs (red & green) hooked up. Or would I have to reset them manually? How would I go about doing this? Not to change the thread topic.
 
  #7  
Old 04-30-17, 09:45 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 16,092
Upvotes Received: 21
With the configuration you are after, the simple solution is to add the 4229.
 
  #8  
Old 04-30-17, 01:12 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: usa
Posts: 603
You can put a 4-wire smoke on zone 1 and get it to reset, though not the traditional way.

You wire the red and black to zone 1 terminals [paying attention to polarity] with a 2k resistor and the other two wires to any other zone terminals -- Doing so will use one extra zone but, you will still have outputs 17 and 18 available [and no need for fields 79, 80 programming] and no connector for the pins is needed.
 
  #9  
Old 05-01-17, 12:57 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 223
Have you tested that solution tpring because from what I know of the VISTA panels, that would not work?

When a 2-wire smoke goes into alarm, I believe it increases the resistance on the zone, which drops voltage to the zone and that's how the VISTA system know to go into fire alarm. Once this happens, the 2nd disarm command (code + off), resets power to the zone. If you wire it up like you suggest, I woudl think you'll never get the voltage drop, and therefore, never get a reset.
 
  #10  
Old 05-01-17, 09:25 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: usa
Posts: 603
Originally Posted by Sterling D
Have you tested that solution tpring because from what I know of the VISTA panels, that would not work?
Yes, many times, [I disable zone 1 reporting] hasn't failed me yet.

Not sure what happens internally on the board. Picked it up from another poster [SameBigChief] a few years ago.

Not "the correct way" but, it does work.
 
  #11  
Old 05-05-17, 08:24 AM
demetrax1's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 34
Interesting solution, tpring. I think I tried something like that a few years back with my System Sensor 2112-24R, but then I would just get a FIRE TROUBLE 01 when I exited programming. Must not have had the resistor wired in properly. Sterling D might have a point if that's the case. However, that would be a great solution if it would keep Outputs 17 & 18 free, because I really want that keyswitch next to the kitchen side door to be operational. This would surely save me the hassle of going and adding the ADEMCO no. 4204 Relay Board to my shopping list. Heck, I've already got the AD12612 due to the multiple powered devices I'll have easily exceeding 500/600 mA.

On the flip side, though, if I do get the 4204, not only will I have the VISTA's on-board trigger pins, but I'll have enough "room" to reset my four-wire smokes, and be able to activate the second keyswitch at our house. There is an ADEMCO keyswitch that sits in the doorframe of our front door, not sure the model. But it has a slimmer/skinnier plate than normal ADEMCO keyswitches. I know for a fact it has never been wired-up or used since it was installed in 1978-79; the wire to it sits unspliced, dangling in the panel closet. According to my Dad, who's lived there since then -- our family built this house in 1978 -- says no one used the front door to come in and disarm the alarm system. It was there because the house was pre-wired for an older ADEMCO system at the time. All they had were keyswitches at the time. Of course, that system was removed and the VISTA-20 was installed in 1998 by the same installer, but the keyswitches were left alone. The key barrel might need replacement from weathering, perhaps. But the LEDs should be pristine enough for first-time use. It'd simply be an added convenience, say if we were on vacation, and the neighbor needed to gain entry to water our plants.

Anyways, hope I didn't stray too off-topic from my own thread. Would the ADEMCO #4204 be good for resetting my four-wire smoke detectors and be of use for two more r&g keyswitch LEDs?
 
  #12  
Old 05-16-17, 11:09 AM
demetrax1's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 34
I found a solution.

*Ignore my last post about keyswitches, that is for a separate thread.

Please see the attached image. When referring to the "ADEMCO VISTA-20 Summary of Connections", I found the answer to the 4-wire smoke detector dilemma. Notice in the top right hand corner it says to wire your power connections for 4-wire smokes into terminals 4 & 5 on the board. Then, near 4 & 5 it says that power will drop automatically for a fire alarm reset sequence. It's as simple as that. Your main AUX power outputs for keypads and modules will reset for smoke detectors. Hope this helps someone, it sure helped me.

Name:  ADEMCO VISTA-20 Summary of Connections.jpg
Views: 3677
Size:  63.9 KB
Name:  ADEMCO VISTA-20 4 & 5.png
Views: 858
Size:  9.7 KB
Name:  ADEMCO VISTA-20 4-Wire Smoke.png
Views: 1610
Size:  15.8 KB
 

Last edited by demetrax1; 05-16-17 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Picture quality was bad.
  #13  
Old 05-16-17, 06:42 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 16,092
Upvotes Received: 21
Gotta be careful with that. The different generations of Vista panels have different rules. That diagram is for the original Vista 20. The current Vista 20p, and the one before (Vista 20se), both require the use of the output terminals or a relay.

http://www.nationwidesecuritycorp.co...all-Manual.pdf
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes