False Alarms From Basement Motion


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Old 05-21-20, 05:10 PM
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False Alarms From Basement Motion

Hi!

In 2015 I installed a complete home security system with the great help of this forum. Thank you!

System: CADDX NX-8e
Motions: ITI 6540 UPI

However, there is one motion sensor that continues to give false alarms. It is in the basement laundry room. There is a furnace in there but it really does not get hot. There is a fridge and freezer in there too. It happened even before we got our cat.

I tried replacing it and the problem seemed to disappear for some months but the problem is back again. I also tried putting some of the paper to block a lot of the sensor. No help.

Should I just remove it from the system (I have another at the back of the basement that is never a problem). Or, are there some other troubleshooting steps I could try?

Could I have something loose or incorrect in the panel?

Thanks again for your help!
 

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05-21-20, 07:26 PM
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Basic motion sensors don't actually detect movement. They detect heat. They're called PIR's. Passive infrared sensors. The higher end models called Tritechs detect heat and actual motion thru microwaves/ultrasonics.

Your 6540 is a PIR only. If it's pointed at the furnace..... that will set it off.
It needs to be located so that it doesn't see any above ambient heat sources.
 
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Old 05-21-20, 07:26 PM
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Basic motion sensors don't actually detect movement. They detect heat. They're called PIR's. Passive infrared sensors. The higher end models called Tritechs detect heat and actual motion thru microwaves/ultrasonics.

Your 6540 is a PIR only. If it's pointed at the furnace..... that will set it off.
It needs to be located so that it doesn't see any above ambient heat sources.
 
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Old 05-21-20, 10:30 PM
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There are more things can trip a PIR in a utility area than I want to try to list, and even if I did, I'd probably miss some: Everything from mice, to dangling things swinging in a draft, to moths fluttering right in front of the lens, to spiders crawling across it. A spider dangling in front of the PIR lens can look as big as an elephant at 30 feet.

While PJ is right about it detecting heat, it's a little more complicated than that. Your PIR is aimed at an area of your basement and establishes a sort of mosaic picture of ambient temperatures of the area, i.e., a heat pattern of its area. What it reacts to is a sudden change in that pattern. For instance, if it's looking at a warm surface and a spider crawls across the lens, blocking the warm spot, and it now sees a suddenly lowered temperature in part of the pattern that could trip an alarm. A mouse walking across a cold floor can have the same affect, if the mouse is close enough to the PIR. Again, a close mouse can look as big as a cat or dog farther away.

If it's relatively easy to add a little extra wire to the location (e.g., if it's a utility area), one of the best false-alarm solutions is to add a 2nd PIR that covers the same area, but is separated from the 1st; and wire them in parallel, so that both PIRs have to trip within a couple of seconds of each other to trip the alarm. You can wire the 2nd PIR right from the first, so you don't have to run new wire from the Control Panel. The farther the two are, the better, but I've had this work with the two of them separated by only a few feet: It's hard for small critters to be right smack in front of both at the same time. You don't need a high-end PIR for this to work: The dual-sensor effect of 2 low-end PIRs is very effective at eliminating most environmental FA causes. Even low-end PIRs have pretty good signal-processing these days. Just be sure that they both cover the area you're protecting.
 
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Old 05-22-20, 04:04 AM
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Refrigerators and freezers give off heat, too.
 
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Old 05-22-20, 12:50 PM
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PJmax ChosunOne AllanJ First, let me say thank you for such quick and well explained responses. I appreciate each and everyone of the knowledgable members of this community that have helped me to install my trusty alarm system. In 2015 I installed this Caddx NX-8e system with 2 keypads and sensors for 3 doors, 8 windows, 2 smoke, 2 heat, 4 motion and 1 water. All hardwired in-wall and remote supervision.

I've never done anything electrical beyond installing lights. After I finished, I called the monitoring station and they said "looks good." I honestly didn't believe them at first.

That is my testimony of the power of this community and the power of free speech and society. It disturbs me when I see government trying to pass laws for things like outlawing repairs of your own car (yes, that was proposed in my state!). Mostly PJmax and MrRonFL answered my many, many questions. But the entire set up and install cost me around $500. Probably less. It was one of the most rewarding things I've done. Well, finishing it was! So please know I am very very grateful.

ChosunOne I will try your advice. It sounds very clever. My plan is to add a second sensor right beside the furnace, almost on top of it. The current sensor is right across from it. Since the range seems to have about a 1m limit on the floor area and a 2m limit to the sides, it should not detect the furnace. Please let me know if you think that could work.

QUESTION: To wire "in parallel" do I just add wire to each of the current sensor's connections and then attach them to the same connections on the second one? This would be essentially just extending the wires to the second sensor from the first one? Thanks in advance.

 
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Old 05-22-20, 02:10 PM
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This would be essentially just extending the wires to the second sensor from the first one?
Yes..... that is exactly correct..............
 
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Old 05-27-20, 02:13 PM
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ChosunOne So I hooked up a second motion. I'm getting a fault on that zone. I double checked the same wires are going to the same connections on both sensors. The walk test is lighting up on both sensors so they seem to be working and getting power.

Am I missing something?
 
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Old 05-27-20, 04:16 PM
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Where is the End-of-Line Resistor (EOLR) on that zone? The two motions have to be wired in parallel, but the EOLR has to be in series in the loop.
 
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Old 05-27-20, 09:41 PM
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Tx. Will check and let you know.
 
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Old 06-07-20, 11:29 PM
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ChosunOne If my terminology is lacking, please excuse. I'm not sure what all the parts are called

After looking in the panel box, each motion is definitely its own zone, but it seems I've connected the power of all of them together into one power "terminal." There is NO EOL resistor on the motions.

Does it seem I've observed this correctly? I'm trying to dig up my knowledge which has layed dormant since 2015!

Can I connect one EOL to the combined motion connection? If so, what type/size/etc.?
 
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Old 06-08-20, 07:09 AM
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ChosunOne Actually, I've just realized EOLR goes on the zone wires, not the power wires. Let me figure out which zone has the EOLR. I will post later.
 
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Old 06-08-20, 10:01 PM
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OK, so it appears I put EOLRs on the doors, windows and water sensor, but no EOLR on the motion sensors. All the power are combined at the panel and each motion goes to a separate zone.

I believe I was advised somewhere along the line that the motions didn't need an EOLR. It seems I've not got these wired up correctly.

ChosunOne If you could clarify where the EOLR should go given my setup and what type, I would be very grateful.

I have 4 motion sensor zones: 2nd floor, 1st floor, basement and laundry room (with the 5th sensor now on the laundry room zone).

Thank you in advance!
 
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Old 06-08-20, 10:31 PM
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Am I correct in assuming I put a 5.6k resistor on each of the motion zones? So with the laundry room should I just add a resistor to the existing zone connection. Currently, the wires are just extended to the new sensor from the first sensor which is connected to the panel. It wouldn't be too much trouble to change the wires since it is accessible.
 
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Old 06-10-20, 09:57 AM
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Disregard previous posts

ChosunOne Please just disregard my previous posts. There is no EOLR on the motions.

If I connect 5.6k resistors to the motion zones (including the original laundry room sensor) should that correct the fault?
 
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Old 06-10-20, 10:01 AM
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There is only one EOL resistor per zone. So if you are using two motions on one zone..... use one resistor. Since you are wiring two motions in parallel...... the wiring between the units is terminal to terminal. The resistor goes in one of the zone wires between the first motion and the alarm panel.

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Old 06-10-20, 02:56 PM
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aileron8 asked: Am I correct in assuming I put a 5.6k resistor on each of the motion zones?


OK, to avoid any further confusion, which zone _number_ is the basement laundry room motion(s)? Last I heard, we were talking about just one zone that wouldn't set up, i.e., that remained faulted. That zone has a number, and calling it Zone xx (where "xx" is a two-digit number, e.g., Zone 01) is easier and less confusing than referring to "The zone of the motion that covers the basement laundry room."

I suspect you may be confusing sensors with zones. When you added an extra sensor on Zone xx, it was still only one zone: Zone xx, whatever xx is. If the other zones covering other parts of the house are not having issues, then we don't need to talk about plural zones.

Each zone usually (meaning in most installations) has _one_ 5.6K EOLR in the zone loop, the two wires that carry the electronic circuit out to the sensor(s) and back. It's possible to have a particular zone programmed in Panel Programming not to need an EOLR, which is why I said "usually". But the default setting is to have an EOLR on the zones, which means that the Control Panel is looking for 5.6K of resistance or it will see the zone as faulted.

You don't need to go into programming to see if the zone is still set at default to look for the 5.6K. All you have to know is did the zone loop have an EOLR before you added the 2nd motion in parallel to the 1st? If it did, and if you didn't remove that resistor, then it's still there, and the Panel is still looking for it.

There are really only two places where the resistor can be: Either it's installed on one of the zone loop screw terminals at the control panel, or it was at one or two of the screw terminals at the original motion sensor. I'm not there to see where it was/is, which is why I asked you where it is (working on the assumption that there is an EOLR on the zone, as ther usually is.

The reason I asked where the EOLR is, is because IF it's installed between two of the screw terminals of the motion sensor, which is how it's sometimes done, then will probably be shorted by the closed relay of the 2nd motion, and it (the resistor) will have to be moved so that it's in series in the now-modified circuit. All of which, remember, is IF the circuit loop is configured with the EOLR connected to two of the original motion's terminals.

So for future reference, please, when I ask a question; please answer the question so I don't have to make such a long reply. This is not the only possibility for the zone staying faulted, but it is one possibility and we need to verify or eliminate it to move on in the troubleshooting.

So is there an EOLR on that zone? If so, where is it?


NOTE: PJmax posted while I was composing my lengthy reply, but I'm going to post anyway. But PJmax's diagram gives you what you need to know about placing the EOLR.
If the resistor is connected to two of the original motion's terminals, then the loop wires will need to be reconfigured so that they connect to NC and C of the motion.
 
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Old 06-10-20, 06:23 PM
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Thanks PJmax . So to confirm, the 5.6K ohm, .5 Watt 5% Tolerance Carbon Film Resistor does NOT go in the panel. If I put it inside the second motion sensor, connecting the zone wire from the first sensor (that is connected to the panel) to the second sensor, it should solve the fault?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Old 06-10-20, 06:31 PM
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Wait, I got it wrong, I know, sorry. ChosunOne thank you for taking the time to respond.

I know my last message was incorrect.

1) The zone that is faulting is 16. No other zones fault.
2) None of the motion zones have EOLRs. All the others do. There was not a fault until adding the second sensor, in parallel to the zone16 sensor.

I will add the EOLR to the zone wire connection at the panel.

Please disregard my last message, and, if possible, please confirm this is correct. I have ordered more 5.6K oh, 1/2W .5 Watt 5% Tolerance Carbon Film Resistors to add to this zone and the other motion sensors.
 
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Old 06-12-20, 02:50 AM
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aileron8 said: None of the motion zones have EOLRs. All the others do.

It's possible to program zones like that, but it would be unusual and I'd be surprised to find a system programmed that way. The original installer (you?) would have to go out of his way to do it that way; and I can't think of any reason why s/he would. So frankly, I'm a little skeptical that your motion zones aren't programmed to need EOLRs. I suspect what is happening is that you haven't found the EOLRs on your motion zones, even though they're there.

I could be wrong.
If I were to show up at a site with your problem and the User told me "None of the motion zones have EOLRs. All the others do," then the first thing I would do is meter the 2 zone wires (disconnected from the Panel) of one of the working motion zones to see if I found near-zero resistance ( a few Ohms at most), or if I found 5.6K Ohms, +/- 5% ; and that's what I recommend you do. With the motion powered, but not connected to the zone at the panel, and nobody moving in the motion's line-of-sight.

The EOL Resistors can be pretty small because they only have to handle a very small power level; and they can be hidden under tape around a splice, or not obvious even if they're exposed. (One panel I worked with came with EOLRs so small, they looked like little bumps in their wire leads.) My conjecture is that when you added the 2nd sensor by wiring terminal-to-terminal, to wire the 2 motions in parallel, you also inadvertently wired the EOLR in parallel to the 2nd sensor, so that in normal state it shorts the EOLR.

Again: I could be wrong: I'm going with the simplest hypothesis that explains the symptoms; but I'm not there to check. If you meter the (disconnected) zone wires of a working motion zone on Resistance (Ohms) and the loop reads a few Ohms (no more than 10 Ω, probably less than 5), then you're right and I'm wrong. But I'd check before changing things. Troubleshooting-By-Replacing-Parts is an expensive, time-consuming, and frustrating method of fixing anything.

If you're correct that the motion zones don't have EOLRs, then they're already programmed not to look for 5.6K EOLRs; and that means they not only don't need EOLRs, they can't function with EOLRs. In other words, if they didn't have them before, adding them now would cause all the motion zones to stay faulted. If they did have them before, adding extra EOLRs would give the loop 11.2Kof resistance, the they'd stay faulted.

So please, DON'T add any EOLRs to zones that are working. It won't make them better, it will make them faulted.

If you don't already have a Digital MultiMeter (DMM), invest $10-$20 at the local hardwire store; and check the resistance of your motion zone loops. I strongly suspect you'll find ~5.6KΩ on a working motion zone (when nobody moving in sight of the motion) and near-zero Ω on Zone 16.



PS: Here's a quick check you can do without a meter: If you can have someone move something in front of the 2nd motion, but without tripping the first motion (cover the 1st motion if necessary), while you watch the Keypad.

If tripping the 2nd motion while leaving the 1st motion un-tripped, causes the zone to go momentarily Normal (not faulted), then my hypothesis is probably correct.
 
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Old 06-12-20, 09:49 AM
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Thanks ChosunOne . I do appreciate your thorough explanation. Indeed, I am the "installer"! I'm not sure where I was advised to not use EOLRs on the motions but I don't believe they are there. I'm attaching a picture of the panel. I'm pretty sure no resistors on the motions they could be elsewhere.
1) The faulting laundry motion is zone 6, not 16 that I incorrectly stated before.
2) The power to all 4 motions (zones 3-6) are tied to the aux power.


Please let me know if this picture changes anything or if I should still do the other test you mentioned covering the 1st sensor and watching the keypad. I also have a multi-meter (still getting my understanding of how it works).
 
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Old 06-12-20, 10:00 AM
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ChosunOne I think I have discovered what's happening! When you said how tiny resistors could be I thought, is it possible that my sensor model has a built-in resistor and I found:

ITI 6540 UPI
Built-in EOL Resistor of 3.3k Ohm!

Interlogix 65xx Series

So, that explains why I didn't install resistors. Also, when we were discussing if the resistor could go at the device or the panel, I thought it may be possible to build it into the device. Well, I am certainly learning some things.

I'm actually really enjoying this and I thank you for your expertise patience and generosity.

So can I use 2 of these sensors? Perhaps I could disable the resistor? I'm not sure where to go from here.

 
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Old 06-13-20, 10:46 AM
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Aileron8, thanks for the link, even though I couldn't find a way to navigate to any page with technical specs. I'll take your word for it that that model PIR has a built-in 3.3K Resistor. In my cursory search, I haven't found a site that will give much info. I found one site that seemed to have the cutsheet for the PIR, but it was too small to read and didn't allow enlarging the window.

But for future reference, I'll now know not to buy that model PIR. It's the only one I've heard of with built-in resistor in the protective loop. Which means it can't be used for any panel that doesn't use 3.3K EOLRs. AFAIK, Every other model PIR made for standard hardwired zones (as opposed to multiplex) can be used on any brand panel.

If what you say you've found is true, then there's no easy way to parallel two motions on one zone reliably. The only way I know to do it involves running the zone loop through a relay to isolate it from the panel: Probably more trouble than it's worth.
 
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Old 06-15-20, 07:12 PM
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Thanks ChosunOne . The specs are on the second tab "Standard Features", below the picture.

I hate to give up after all. What if I replace the second PIR with one that does not have a built-in EOLR? Could that stop the fault? I could keep the original PIR with the built-in EOLR because that is the one that is connected to the panel, correct?
 
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Old 06-15-20, 11:54 PM
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I hate to give up after all. What if I replace the second PIR with one that does not have a built-in EOLR? Could that stop the fault? I could keep the original PIR with the built-in EOLR because that is the one that is connected to the panel, correct?

No, the problem is that you want to wire a 2nd PIR in parallel with the 1st PIR, and since a built-in resistor is part of the PIR, the 2nd PIR would still short the resistor in its (the 2nd PIR's Normal state.

However, if you used two PIRs that didn't have built-in resistors---"normal" PIRs, in other words, that aren't made for just one kind of system---, and added a 3.3K resistor on one terminal in the Control Panel, then that would work fine. It's more expensive than running the zone loop through an isolating relay, but less complicated and much easier to understand.
 
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Old 06-20-20, 09:59 AM
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ChosunOne Ah, yes, that makes sense. I found this PIR that I would like to get. I cannot find any information that says it has a built-in EOLR.

Is there any way to tell from the installation instructions if it might have a built-in:

Thank you in advance.
 

Last edited by aileron8; 06-20-20 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Update link
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Old 06-20-20, 09:04 PM
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That looks like a typical PIR to me: No indication of any built-in resistor. Your existing PIR is the first one I've heard of that has a built-in EOLR. I can only speculate why ITI would make theirs that way, but every other manufacturer I know of, doesn't.

You should be able to use it like you want to.
 
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Old 06-20-20, 09:45 PM
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Ordered. Will post results. Thank you, sir.
 
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Old 07-03-20, 10:05 AM
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So, I am still getting a fault on zone 6. Here is my troubleshooting so far:
  1. I twisted the wires together at the original location and installed a single original sensor 9w/ built-in EOLR) at the new, extended location. This results in Ready system (no fault). So the wiring is sound.
  2. Then I replaced that original sensor at the extended location with a new sensor (w/o built-in EOLR) and put a 3.3k EOLR in the panel on the white/zone wire. Results in Fault.
  3. Removed 3.3k EOLR results in Fault.
Possible cause:
  1. The new sensors have different connector labels. I may have wired it wrong. I wired it thusly: T = empty, T = green, + = red, - = black, NC = white, C = empty.
  2. The zone 6 red and black wires share the other motion zones' inputs at the panel. Maybe because the new sensor with panel EOLR is sharing the Aux Power and Common with sensors that have built-in EOLRs in the sensors.
  3. The other sensors such as windows and doors have 5.6k resistors. Should I be using 5.6k on the motion (even though the built-ins on the other motions are 3.3k)?
Apologies for my limited electrical knowledge.
 
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Old 07-03-20, 10:23 AM
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The T terminals are tamper. In your application.... skip using the tamper contacts.
Power is + and --
Your switch is C and NC.





 
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Old 07-04-20, 09:01 PM
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Happy Independence Day and thank you PJmax It worked! I switched the green to the C, connected the second PIR and the revised system is up and running. Thank you ChosunOne for the solution of adding a second PIR to the zone. I will post back on the results to confirm the false alarms have stopped.

Thanks for your patience and guidance. Stay free!
 
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Old 07-04-20, 09:11 PM
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Same back. Thanks for letting us know how you made out.
 
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Old 12-22-21, 10:20 PM
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Just to let you know, the 2-sensor setup is still rock solid. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
 
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Old 12-22-21, 10:24 PM
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Great news. Happy Holidays to you too. ..........
 
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Old 12-23-21, 06:03 AM
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Thanks for posting feedback, it always helps to know how it worked out.
 
 

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