Ademco 11WH Vibration Contact usage?

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Old 07-19-20, 08:41 PM
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Ademco 11WH Vibration Contact usage?

Has anyone here used a vibration contact with a wireless door/window switch transmitter? I'd like to put one on a side door that would be the most likely to be kicked for attempted entry. The door is already alarmed and is reinforced quite a bit. What I'm wanting is for the alarm to trigger if someone puts their size 12 against the door. Hoping to find someone who has had experience with that device and can tell me how reliably they work. I don't want an alarm every time the wind blows hard or a noisy motorcycle goes by. They look to be a mechanical device with an adjusting screw. Would be nice if there was a solid state sensor with some intelligence like the glass break detectors. Thanks, Gary.
 
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Old 07-19-20, 10:12 PM
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That switch will do what you want. You can adjust it so that it's not overly sensitive.
If you use a glass break it will need 12v power to operate unless you use a wireless glass break compatible with your system.
 
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Old 07-20-20, 12:01 PM
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I think you're wrong Max. The #11 vibration contact is an inertia device. The reaction time of a wireless transmitter isn't fast enough to detect the vibration of the contacts. And ---- if you set the contacts so they are loose, you'll never be able to predict if or when the unit WILL trip the transmitter.

I believe the #11 was the first popular vibration sensor on the market back in the 60's. As a result of if's sometimes good, sometimes bad performance, subsequent "vibration" products were developed with processors that would convert the fast vibrations into slower and more intelligent sensing devices. Litton Industries Ultrak and the IEI Viper come to mind as viable type vibration/shock sensors. And I think Sentrol had a device also that was similar to their popular 1551 glass shock sensor. (1525 Glass Trap (?)The difference was that the sensor had a screw sensitivity adjustment with an LED indicator when it was activated. I forget the part number. Some of these devices may still be available on Ebay or from other sources.
But ---- the use of the #11 directly wired to a wireless transmitter is not likely to work or work reliably.
 
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Old 07-20-20, 04:48 PM
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Hello Jimmiee! Thanks for the comment. What I am trying to do is mount something on the door frame adjacent to the lock area that will trigger during a kick. I undertook this after watching a YouTube video on reinforcing entry doors (search "fortress door" on YouTube). After copying the strategies on my door, I took note of the "after" videos showing the flexing of the door jamb as the show host did his best to breach the door. It just seemed to me that there should be something that would detect that sudden movement and I searched for and found the #11 sensor. There is no glass in the door. I probably shouldn't have mentioned glass break detectors as it seems that led the conversation astray. It would be a challenge but I could get a wire from the door back to the Vista 20 board. Would this be the better solution that would allow the use of the old school #11? Would it be reliable in that application? With direct wiring possible is there something better I could use? Thanks, Gary.
 
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Old 07-20-20, 05:13 PM
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Jimmiee said,
"I think you're wrong Max. The #11 vibration contact is an inertia device. The reaction time of a wireless transmitter isn't fast enough to detect the vibration of the contacts. And ---- if you set the contacts so they are loose, you'll never be able to predict if or when the unit WILL trip the transmitter."

Jimmiee, I read Max's post as advising that garyemunson could use a wireless transmitter instead of a powered glassbreak device, as opposed to just using an unpowered device, such as the Ademco No. 11, in series with the door contact. He didn't advocate putting the No. 11 on a wireless transmitter.

At the same time, you point out the caveat that the No. 11 interrupts the protective circuit far too fast to be used with normal zone reaction times: The User needs to program the zone for its fastest reaction time---this is assuming garyemunson has a fairly modern control panel with programmable zone response time.

Garyemunson, for future reference, it's often helpful if you name your control panel model number and the specific zone involved. In this case, one of us could probably direct you to the specific program setting you'd need to change, to be sure the No. 11 contact would be effective. Be aware that if there is anything "flakey" about that zone wiring or door contact---poor connections or splices, or unusual vibrations at the door contact, etc---that you may start getting false alarms on that zone. If you live next to a railroad track, forget about it.

I honestly didn't know that the Ademco No. 11 contact was still in use. Garyemunson's is a rare case where it might actually be effective. I used to work with those back in the '70s, and my own not-so-humble opinion was that they should never have been sold as "glass-break" detectors. IIRC, their original purpose was to detect burglars smashing through walls--or kicking down doors. Trying to adjust them to react to breaking glass but not to other ambient vibrations was well-nigh impossible.

EDIT: Garyemunson, I see you posted while I was composing, and now I know you have a Vista-20. I'm going to leave my post as is. Let us know if you need any help with the programming.

 
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Old 07-20-20, 05:47 PM
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Thanks for the reply! I'm pretty good with programming (but the manual is my friend!). Just was having doubts if there was a sensor that would fit my requirement. As ancient as it is, it looks like the #11 is just what I need and, if I run a hardwire back to the Vista 20, should do what I want. As I understand the Vista's operation, it should be quick enough to catch the #11 circuit interruption from a kick if hardwired to a zone connection and the 11 is adjusted right and the control board is set to fastest response.
 
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Old 07-20-20, 09:34 PM
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The #11 vibration contact was originally promoted to be connected directly to the protective loop of a control panel. ----- and that was long before the reaction time of a protective loop could be modified. And yes, it was designed to be put on walls and heavy doors. (objects that didn't move or "rattle". ) However their use was always a gamble. There was a proscribed amount of pressure that was measured in grams that the #11 was supposed to be set. But really, no one really knew if the device was going to detect every kind of attack. I'm sure there were #11 vibration contacts that were screwed down so tight that they'd never trip.
So ------ yes, if it were me, I'd hardwire the #11 back to the control panel and do some extensive banging and rattling of the door. Try it with the regular sensitivity setting of the zone and the faster setting to see how it reacts. If you run into a problem you can try using more that one #11 wired in either series or in parallel.
.
Just as an aside ------ when I do installations in old vintage homes with the old fashioned wooden basement windows and doors I staple trap wire. (24 gauge solid insulated wire) in a wire mesh across the doors and windows and use pull traps because any sort of vibrations sensor would constantly be tripping, Usually much to dusty and buggy for motions detectors. It's a lost method that hardly anyone knows about anymore. I've saved a bunch of the old stuff for just such occasions..I even have a couple of rolls of window foil and a splicing tool ;-)
 
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Old 07-21-20, 04:52 AM
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Thanks for the #11 in series idea! The purchase I made came in packs of 2 and I had no idea where I'd ever use the other one! Wow. Window foil! Bet the adhesive on the back is pretty dead by now! Gary.
 
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Old 07-21-20, 05:47 AM
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I agree with Jimmiee; the response time of the transmitter my not be adequate.
Ademco's #11 shock sensor is ancient technology and gave me many grey hairs (those I didn't pull out). IIRC, the original data sheets said they were intended for us on concrete block walls. You mounted a 2x4 on the wall and mounted the #11 on the 2x4. Other than rolling-of-the-dice, you need Ademco's gram-meter to adjust them properly and I haven't seen one of those in probably 40 years.
IMHO, avoid them.
 
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Old 07-21-20, 11:05 AM
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I've kept the sticky back foil in my deep freezer and only take it out should I need it. Even so, the adhesive is beginning to lose it. HOWEVER ----- I was also able to get some of the original non-sticky foil before the Brooklyn Foil Co. closed it's doors. Probably not too many people left who have the skill to apply non adhesive window foil. I have foil blocks too. And in my "archive/museum" I have some of the old solder style foil take-offs. I've saved some pretty old stuff through the years.Ademco 215 keypads. #35 magnetic shunt contact, 1023 panel, 1200 photo beam, 612 tape dialer with a recorded tape. A # 12 tester which was used to test the #11 vibration contact. Some Adcor communicators, Napco and Adcor Eprom programmers.508 Fire panel. Some 5600 keypads transmitters and panels. And I could go on for another whole paragraph.
 
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Old 07-27-20, 08:21 AM
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I remember seeing that old foil on plate glass store fronts. Looked like the installer painted a strip of something like varnish on the glass and stuck bare foil to it and brushed another coat over it. As years went what ever that was would get pretty yellowed. Mostly saw it on jewelry store windows in my little hometown in the 50's/60's. Probably not much of that left anywhere.

 
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Old 07-28-20, 11:00 AM
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some of my finest work
 
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Old 08-09-20, 05:55 AM
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#11 contact follow up

Just to let everyone know... I installed the 2 #11 vibration contacts in series on my door frame hard wired to the controller, one about 6" above the strike area, one 6" below. I just left them at the adjustment they came out of the box with. I have to give a REALLY hard kick to the door to trigger them, about all this 70 year old can muster (just what I was hoping for). Yes, I taped some cardboard to the door to save it from my #9 footprint. I don't think anything else short of a serious earthquake will ever false alarm them. Thank you all for your help and suggestions. This is on a side entrance door into our garage behind a yard gate that if I were a burglar, I think that is where I'd try to kick my way in. I had previously "hardened" the door with an extended heavy strike plate, a Kwickset ( I know they are not the strongest) deadbolt with the bump resistant smartkey, lock area door wrap, 3" screws in the hinges and and a separate manual blocking device on the jamb below the lock area. Our house is also built with 2x6 framing so I'm pretty sure it would now take a police style battering ram to split the door down the middle to force an entry. My next thought is adding a sensor to the fence gate. I'd added then removed an annunciator device that would drive my wife nuts every time I went in and out. I do have motion detector lights and it is watched by one of my security cameras so maybe an alarm sensor on the gate may be more of a nuisance than a help. I prefer things that are not likely to give a false alarm. While I don't particularly want strangers in my backyard, I realize kids might bounce a ball in and want to retrieve it. The less complications the better for me, just remembering to arm and disarm the damn system taxes the Hell out of my senile old brain! Some time ago, to help me remember to lock the doors, I made a warning light system by putting a door jamb type magnet switch in the back of the jamb deadbolt pocket and epoxied one of the small round magnets I surgically removed from it's plastic holder to the end of the deadbolt. I mounted the small, red LED high on a wall visible from the main living area. It's not noticeable unless it's on. I have the entry doors all connected to this system.
 

Last edited by garyemunson; 08-09-20 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 08-09-20, 10:33 AM
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What garyemunson described is exactly how it was originally done. I was estatic when they brought out self-adhering foil. Some of the really old foil jobs I can only describe as pure art, as shown in the post from Jimmiee.
Foil on commercial doors created many "closing time" service calls.
 
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