DSC 8132 lost half its programming after long power failure

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  #1  
Old 07-26-20, 02:37 PM
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DSC 8132 lost half its programming after long power failure

Greetings,
I have a DSC 1832 panel with RFK5500 keypad.
The keypad is programmed to report Freeze alarm.
The system has been up and running without issues for a long time.
Recently, I experienced a long power failure.
When power was restored, the panel:
  1. Reports Keypad Freeze. panel won’t arm without bypass.
  2. Panel does not dial out when arm/disarm
  3. Panel does not respond to any arm/disarm code other than the master code.
    I cannot reset the panel with “Reset” or *72 “Function not allowed”
    The keypad DID retain the time/date and zone labels. However, delays appear to be reset to default. I have not investigated whether other settings like cross zones, smoke alarms, etc. are intact or no longer programmed.
Does anyone have suggestions as to whether the system programming can be salvaged? I would like to start by clearing the Freeze alarm. However, I don’t know what is lost/retained. Does anyone have experience they can share?

I would like to avoid reprogramming the entire panel if possible, but can do so. I don’t know how to verify the keypad is not damaged or bad at this point.

Thanks for any help.

Dave
 
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  #2  
Old 07-26-20, 03:55 PM
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Older DSC panels would get programming corrupted by being allowed to run on a failing battery, this is first I've seen from one of the new generation units.

Start with the basics. Power the system down, both AC and battery backup. Wait a few minutes and restore power. See if it will let you set the time/date and if all the glitches are gone.
 
  #3  
Old 07-28-20, 05:59 PM
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Alas, resets not effective.
The panel remembers the time/date.
I can adjust it with the keypad using normal procedure.
Zone labels are intact
user codes are not working ex. master.

Miraculously, I found the laptop I used to program the panel 4-5 years ago.
It has DLS5 on it and I think I managed to communicate with the panel. At least DLS5 produced no errors. My entire setup is there.

However, attempting to transmit it to the panel has no effect.
No errors, but no change either.

The pad still reports freeze alarm, which worries me. If the pad is dead, that's one thing. I have a replacement, but have not swapped it because I don't know if that is the prudent troubleshooting tack at this point.

Also, I'm not positive I can remember how to enroll a new keypad, to be honest.

I was hoping I could just re-download the settings to the panel and go from there, but that has not worked yet.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a rational approach to this? Is Keypad reporting Freeze a symptom of dead pad, sensor or programming? what are the best steps for isolating the issue?

Is there a good method of testing to see if I am ACTUALLY communicating with the panel without overwriting my current setup?

I'd rather tap the knowledge before I start flailing around, making matters worse.

Thanks for any help!

Dave

 
  #4  
Old 07-28-20, 08:09 PM
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If you are able to set the clock, then your master code is working. If the master code is still working, have you checked to see if any of the secondary codes are still programmed by using the *5 command?

The freeze warning function is something built into the keypad. It is turned off in keypad programming location 077.
https://cms.dsc.com/download.php?t=1&id=16949
I
You keep saying you have to bypass to arm, what zone(s) are you bypassing?

If you want to use the software, use it to do a download from the panel to new file, so you can view what is actually configured.
 
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Old 08-03-20, 11:38 AM
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Thanks.
The maser code and installer's codes are still working, and default, which is probably how I left them.
The other user codes are not programmed.
I can add a user 01 without any problem.

Sorry. I was not clear.
Zone 1 is Keypad Freeze. It is in alarm. I can't see any difffentce after turning #3,#8 off in [077]. It still reports "keypad Freeze"
I can't arm the panel unless I bypass it.
Once bypassed, I can arm the system.

It arms and sensors seem to work (doors, PIRs)

However, the delays are now defaulted and all the PIRs are now "instant violate" instead of stay/away and Cross Zone.

I'm having troubles getting the download to work, so I've decided to program the panel manually. I have the printout from DLS and pretty good notes from the previous install.

I'm worried about the keypad freeze. I don't need it, really, and can bypass it. However, if it is a symptom of a hardware problem with the keypad, then I want to address it before I get too far down the reprogramming path.

Any idea how to troubleshoot to see what is causing the "Keypad Freeze"? Is there a way to reset the keypad or the alarm it generates?

Thanks.

Dave
 
  #6  
Old 08-03-20, 03:36 PM
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If it is coming in as an actual zone, then it's either a physical device connected to the zone 1 terminals, or it's a keypad zone input (z terminal) configured as zone 1; or it's a programming glitch on the zone 1 zone type configuration.

Have you tried to view the settings for the zone programming in system programming location 001?
 
  #7  
Old 08-15-20, 07:14 PM
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Progress!
Well, I got DLS working and can communicate with the panel.
Nearly all programming was gone.
I added a keypad to make initiating download simple from where the computer is located.

Zone Labels survived, as did the serial number for the only wireless zone I have .
Everything else is gone.
I copied my old setup and just Null zones 01 (the keypad freeze) to avoid that issue until the main system is up. I can live without the freeze alarm if it is a bad keypad, or if I can't solve it.
I reentered my setup from the sheet I printed last time I installed and uploaded.

I have 2 problems.

First, all zones except CO and Fire are in alarm. I'm assuming I missed either the supervision SEOL resistors setup, or I have NC/NO toggled incorrectly. I can fix those.

However, the panel is in alarm, and I can't initiate a download.
I reprogrammed [013] for SEOL. hopefully that will solve that issue, but I have a more pressing problem:

Second, the Smoke alarms sound after a few minutes of the panel being powered on.
I recall this was a problem when I installed it, but cannot specifically remember the solution.
They are 4 wire smokes with a polarity reversal module that makes all sound when one trips. I assume I missed a programming input. Do you have any idea where I should start looking for that?

Finally, the RFK5500 I bought is not fully installed. I think I missed programming it for the proper partition. It mostly works, but shows 1-8 with an N below the 1. If I hold 1 down, it shows "Selecting system" and then behaves normally. Any ideas what step I skipped with the keypad setup?

Thanks for your help.

Dave
 
  #8  
Old 08-16-20, 09:59 AM
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For the keypad, I suspect that you programmed it as "global". You need to set the keypad address as 1x, not 0x.

For configuration. Remove the field wiring and dummy off the zone inputs with 5.6K Ω resistors. Then you can troubleshoot the field wiring zone by zone as you reconnect it.

For the smokes, check and see if any one of they is actually in alarm (LED on solid). You may have to disconnect the heads and put them back, one at a time, in case one has failed internally in the long down time.

The best way to troubleshoot this stuff, is to isolate the field wiring off while you work on programming, otherwise you can end up chasing your tail...
 
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Old 08-22-20, 02:10 PM
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Yep. This has turned into quite a project. I was hoping that I could reprogram and be off and running. No such luck.
I'm in the process of pulling the wiring off and starting from scratch.
Doing each zone on the benchtop first then hooking up will get this going faster, I think, in the long run. This is especially true with the 4 wire smokes, polarity reversal module and CO detector, which have required more wiring and programming than other doors/PIRs for me in the past.
I've pulled the Smokes and noticed they are almost 10 years old. That goes for the CO detector, too. I'll order new ones. None of the smokes were showing any LED when they were sounding. They all sounded as soon as the panel was powered up for 3 minutes. The PRM is functioning.

One thing has arisen that is cramping that plan:

I previously was able to initiate DSL download with *8,INSTALLERCODE,499,INSTALLERCODE,499 from a keypad.

That behavior has changed, but I cannot figure out why:

Now, *8, INSTALLERCODE, 499 gets me:
"enter installer code then 499
I enter INSTALLERCODE, 499
I get "Press (*) for <>
499 Begin PClink
Doing so gets me a long beep and return to Enter Installer code.

I'm not permitted to communicate with pane, but can't figure out what I've changed.

At this point, I'm considering unhooking everything and resetting the panel and keypads and going forward from scratch.

Some Googling shows that Shorting Z1 and PGM1 for 10 seconds at power-up will factory reset the panel. Is this correct? Do you think this is prudent, or overkill from a troubleshooting standpoint?

Do Keypads need individual reset or will they reset when the panel gets reset?

Once I can communicate with the panel again, do you think I should start an entirely new install, or try to salvage any of the programming? I guess that if I'm doing it from scratch, I should just get busy doing it from scratch since I can't figure out where I've gone wrong.

I've gotta keep reminding myself that this is all part of the fun!

Dave
 
  #10  
Old 08-22-20, 02:21 PM
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What I am suspecting is that the installer code is no longer what you think it is. Sometimes with this kind of glitch, the easiest fix is to do the hard reset and start over. There are unused programming locations that this kind of thing can change that can produce erratic results, as well as the obvious stuff.

Do the default is my recommendation.
 
  #11  
Old 08-22-20, 03:30 PM
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This will sound dumb:

I installed a jumper between Z1 and PGM1
powered up for 10 seconds
powered down
Remove Jumper

The panel lost time setting, as expected, but keypads are still
1) displaying zone labels
2) are already enrolled in partition/slot

Did I not get a factory reset of the panel for some reason? Or is this information in the keypads themselves?
 
  #12  
Old 08-22-20, 03:32 PM
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That reset only resets main panel programming. The wireless receiver and keypad has their own reset mechanism.
 
  #13  
Old 08-24-20, 09:55 AM
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I'm off and running now.
I have all the zones apart from the CO and smokes up and running. Some tweaking like cross zone on the PIRs still to be done, but I'm making progress.

for the Smoke detectors: I have 3 DSC FSA-410BSTs installed, one on each level of the house.

Looking for replacements, I see this model is not widely available. The suppliers that come up on google don't seem to have stock.

Is there another 4 wire detector with audible alarm that is compatible with the polarity reversal module I have set up? Alternatively, is there a reliable supplier I should look up?

If not, what is a feasible alternative? I like the PRM setup where if one is tripped, they all sound. Is there another method that accomplishes that function?

Thanks.

Dave
 
  #14  
Old 08-24-20, 04:12 PM
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They are still available, but there's really just a couple of vendors that stock them.

I like the System Sensor models, because they are easy to install and are widely available.

You will probably have to swap out the reversing module for the System Sensor module.

https://www.systemsensor.com/en-us/Pages/4WTA-B.aspx
https://www.systemsensor.com/en-us/D...t_A05-0350.pdf
 
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Old 08-24-20, 06:24 PM
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Thank you!
System Sensor equipment looks good.
I ordered my detectors and module.
I also got their CO detector while I was at it.

So far, everything has been pretty smooth once I reset and got going.

Thank you so much for your help!

I happened to notice, in my notes from the original install that you were a HUGE help (and patient) with all my problems last time around. Reading the alarms section of this forum shows you are VERY generous with with your expertise and time. I wanted to take a moment to thank you for your efforts on this forum. It is much appreciated. I’m sure I would have spent more effort and head pounding against various walls without your help.

Very much appreciated.

Thanks.

Dave
 
  #16  
Old 08-29-20, 03:50 PM
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Hopefully, a final question
Everything seems to be up and running with exception of the smoke alarms.
they power up and will throw each other into alarm with the RRS-MOD polarity reversal.

However, the reset (*72) does not silence and reset the alarms. PGM2 is set for "sensor reset" and pushing *72 initiates a PGM output, but the alarms continue until I power the panel off.

My question is: do I require an EOLR-1 Relay in addition to the RRS-MOD, or is this a symptom of some other problem.

The install instructions (I'm following figure 7) shows an EOL Relay at the last detector.
https://www.systemsensor.com/en-us/D...l_I56-2203.pdf

I've double checked the programming and wiring, and can't locate an error.

I was unsure if the relay was handled by the RRS-MOD, or if I require another component.

Sorry that this is such a dumb question.

Dave
 
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Old 08-29-20, 07:40 PM
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The EOL relay is only for the purpose of supervising the presence of smoke detector power for the 4 wire smokes, it's not an operational component. There _should_ be one for good wiring practices, but as long as you have the correct end of line resistor in place, for troubleshooting purposes, it's not critical.

RSS-MOD manual: https://www.systemsensor.com/en-us/D...l_I56-2203.pdf

I'm not sure what you disconnected in the troubleshooting process, but it' not impossible that your module is actually the source of the problem. If you can connect the smokes _without_ the reversing module and not trigger an alarm, then the module is your most likely problem.
 
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Old 09-10-20, 08:12 PM
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I think that I had mis-programmed the PGM output. Once I revisited it, the problem resolved. I’ll admit it COULD have been a wiring issue. I re-did that,too.

All is well, now.

THANKS for your assistance!

Great recommendation on the System Sensor hardware, by the way. Very well made and documented.

Thanks again!

I think I’m set with this project. Yay.

Dave
 
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