Moose Z1100E Fire Alarm failure

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Old 10-21-20, 02:00 PM
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Moose Z1100E Fire Alarm failure

I have am testing my smoke alarms and getting them to latch but the alarm will not sound.

1. No error codes noted

2. Zone 8 is set-up for fire, install code 058 = [66] which appears to be factory

3. Each (total of 3) smokes will latch (solid light), and able to reset using the key pad (blinks)

4. Aux A panic button wired for fire. When pressed at key pad will activate alarm.

5. Zone 8 resistance reads 1638 ohms when unlatched (normal). Resistance changes to 20 ohms during latch condition. Measuring at pins 11 & 12.

6. J connector pin 11 (pink) used for fire.

7. Contacts driving siren board (MPI-11) wired from K1 contactor. 12V present on board during Aux A alarm, but is not present when smoke latched.

8. All other burglar alarms work, and all panic buttons A, B, and C work.



It appears Pin J11 will send output signal to contactor when Aux A is pressed, but fails to send output when latched condition.



My questions:

1. What triggers the J11 output signal? I assume the Moose board measures changes in the circuit and when detected triggers the event. Does the same panel circuit monitor both Aux A and Zone 8 connected to J11? They are responding differently.

2. Should I replace the smokes?

3. Is this a panel board issue and should I replace the board?

4. Will be selling house in next 8 months and want to avoid an upgrade. Can I use Zone 7 for fire? It is currently used for low temp detection and has EOL resistor connecting the terms. Can I use smokes that are hard wired, push button reset and completely disconnected from Z1100E since I have 12V power at each of the smokes?



I have seen really good replies in this forum from people that really seem to know their stuff. Any help is much appreciated.
 
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  #2  
Old 10-21-20, 04:22 PM
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Simple test: Jumper from common to the zone 8 terminal. If you get the fire alarm activation, then the problem is with the smokes and/or field wiring. If not, and these smokes have triggered the alarm sounder in the past, either there is a problem with the relay on the board that actually provides voltage to the driver board, the siren driver board itself, or the siren.
The way these old panels worked, there were a lot of potential failure points.

Look at the diagrams on pages 22-23 of the install manual.

http://static.interlogix.com/library...anual_1996.pdf
 

Last edited by MrRonFL; 10-21-20 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 10-21-20, 05:11 PM
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Thanks. Just to be clear, can you give me the terminal numbers to jumper? Zone 8 is terminal 11 and 12, and the contact K1 has term 23 as trigger, 21 is common, and 20 is normally open.
Another piece of info, Iíve been in the house 6 years and never used the system so canít comment on verifying alarms. The back-up battery died and I disconnected the system, not thinking about the smoke alarm. We had a recent fire event (high smoke free smoldering plastic) and it failed to trip the alarm. This started my quest. Battery now replaced, but found when testing all 3 smokes nothing alarmed. I did trace all the field wiring and found continuity and correct wiring. Does it seem probable all 3 smokes would be faulty? The resistance does change when latched, just fails to signal J output at pin 11, unless the Aux A fire button is pressed, and then it alarms.
 
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Old 10-21-20, 06:11 PM
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Put a jumper from terminal 11 to terminal 12. That will test if the alarm rely closure on the smokes are the problem.

Look at the pink wire coming off the trigger harness. When the smokes are triggered, there should be12v dc being sent from that wire to the trigger point on whichever relay is being used for fire output.

Not knowing the exact wiring on your alarm relay connections makes this hard to diagnose without photos or better descriptions.

Again, the diagrams in the user manual are very helpful.
 
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Old 10-21-20, 06:48 PM
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Thanks and will try the jump. I do get voltage on the pink wire when the Aux A is pressed, but do not get voltage when the smokes latch and the resistance at term 11 & 12 changes. The alarm board seems to be wired correctly and sounds the alarm on all burglar terms 1-6 and Aux A,B,C activations. If it helps I can send a pix of pink wire linking to sure board.
Iíll short the 11 & 12 terminals and report back.
 
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Old 10-21-20, 07:24 PM
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You can post pictures here..... how-to-insert-pictures.
 

Last edited by PJmax; 10-21-20 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 10-21-20, 07:36 PM
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I shorted 11 & 12 and alarm did not sound. The output pink wire connects to K1 contacts and there is 13 V volts between trigger term 22 and common term 21, but no output voltage to siren board from normally open term 20.
It appears the panel board is not responding to the contact input from smokes which suggests a board issue. It is curious the pink wire has voltage when Aux A pressed but not when zone 8 smokes are latched.
What do you recommend?
 
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Old 10-21-20, 08:34 PM
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Attached pix of relay connect to siren board.


 

Last edited by RFC91; 10-21-20 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 10-21-20, 10:28 PM
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I see the pink aux wire on K1 trigger. I see the K1 relay is powering siren driver steady.
I see the gray & tan aux wires on K2 trigger. I see the K2 relay is powering siren driver yelp.

The K relays require + to activate. Typically the AUX wires switch to ground.
I'm guessing the AUX wires can be programmed to switch to +

Shorting between terminals 11 and 12 (Z8) should show an alarm on the keypad.
If it's not seen on the keypad.... it won't trigger the aux output.




 
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Old 10-22-20, 03:26 AM
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The trigger wires on the old Moose panels are a + voltage output, and are use to trigger the on board relay.

Given that they are getting an alarm activation on a manual fire test, and the additional information that this is a system that has not really been used, my suspicion is that the zone 8 may not be configured, in programming, as a fire zone.
 
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Old 10-22-20, 08:27 AM
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Thanks for the responses. The jumper did not trigger any alarm condition at any of the key pads. I was thinking the same that perhaps Zone 8 was not programmed as a 24-hr fire zone but rather a burglar. So, I readied the alarm system with "leave" and then tripped the smoke as if it were any other contact like motion or door and nothing happened. I did get a resistance change at zone 8 terms 11 & 12, but no output voltage to trip the relay from the pink wire. When I went upstairs to check the key pad, I of course set off the motion detector and the alarm sounded.
I did check the program install code for 058 (which is zone 8) and the value = 66 which I believe is the factory setting for this loop which should have come configured as fire.
Is there another way to confirm if zone 8 is setup as a fire loop? What do you recommend as a next step?
Thanks again for your immediate responses. Very helpful in trying to get me through this problem. I want to believe it is not a board issue since many other easier issues can be the cause, but at this point it seems to be the most likely.


 
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Old 10-22-20, 03:39 PM
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If a a direct short from z8 to zone common didn't give any reaction from the keypad or the output, and you have verified that the programming is correct; then the only remaining possibility is that the zone input has failed.
 
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Old 10-22-20, 03:57 PM
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Thanks. Zone 7 is being used for low temp and I can easily dedicate these terminals 10 & 11 for the smokes. How do I convert this zone to 24-hr fire? Is it as easy as moving the contact input wires and changing the installer zone definition for Zone 7 [057] to a new value of 66? Will the output signal from the J plug still be the pink wire that drives the relay?
 
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Old 10-22-20, 04:49 PM
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Correct, the inputs simply do what they are configured to do. You could program _any_ input to be fire. The firmware directs the outputs based on what the inputs are configured to be.
 
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Old 10-22-20, 05:44 PM
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Ok. So if you confirm, I will re-wire zone 7 to utilize the input wiring from zone 8, change the install value of [057] to a value of 66, and leave the pink wire from J11 unchanged. Will this convert zone 7 to fire?
 
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Old 10-22-20, 06:44 PM
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Yes, assuming that there are no other issues with this 20+ year old system, reprogramming another zone input as a fire zone _should_ trigger the fire output. As previously stated, _any_ input can be programmed for fire.
 
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Old 10-23-20, 10:28 AM
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I converted Zone 7 to fire by moving the wires and changing the setup of zone to a value of 66 as described above. However, I still can't get the system to alarm, even when I jumper across the terminals, which suggest that the circuit is behaving as a normally closed loop. When I look at the zone jumpers for zones 1-8, they are all cut. If this is a supervised circuit such as Fire, shouldn't the zone jumper NOT be cut per the installation manual? I'll send some pix.
 
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Old 10-23-20, 10:32 AM
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Old 10-23-20, 12:07 PM
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OK I think I can answer this myself, they do all have resistors in the circuit so therefore are supervised end of line. For the fire loop, the resistor is at the end of the loop. Therefore all should be cut so it is correct.
I do get an alarm when the positive wire is removed for each of the zones...I do not get an alarm when I short across each zone to common, including burglar zones even when armed.
What am I doing wrong when I manually jumper to each zone seeking an alarm condition?
 
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Old 10-23-20, 02:13 PM
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Update...
I simplified my trouble shooting to a simple circuit in zone 7 to eliminate potential issues from the smokes. Z7 is a low temp sensor and I directly shorted the contacts. The alarm will not sound. I have changed setup code to 65, 66, 67, then 68 and still no alarm. Did I do something incorrectly and if not what is my next step?




 
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Old 10-23-20, 04:34 PM
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If someone in the past cut all of the zone jumpers, then they will only work as unsupervised NC zones, which means that you can't use them for fire zones.

As I said, "Yes, assuming that there are no other issues with this 20+ year old system,"

If you are feeling ambitious, you could try soldering the jumper back closed, but ultimately the only real fix is to replace the alarm control and keypads, I have a suspicion that this system had a lot of ill advised tinkering done to it.
 
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Old 10-23-20, 05:44 PM
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Thanks. I am the second owner of home built in 94. The prior home owners were not the ones to tinker, they would have hired pros. I also know they used the system frequently, with the menu buttons worn down from use. I have no issue soldering the jumper. If I can just get a zone trip from shorting the contacts I would feel great. Itís crazy that a direct short on a simple circuit does not create alarm, yet all of the burglar circuit work perfectly.
 
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Old 10-23-20, 05:57 PM
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Trust me, I've been an electronics tech for pushing 40 years, and in the alarm and life-safety field for 20 of those years. Many "professional" installers can, and do, horrifically kludged install work; especially during the mid 90s years when there was huge competition in the residential intrusion field.

That said: it's not a bug, it's a design feature. NO contact closure zones, like smokes have to have the EOL across the open contact to work. That same configuration allows you to also have closed contacts in the same loop. Not really a common configuration in residential installs; but sometimes useful in commercial intrusion; which is what the Moose Z1100 was originally designed for.

 
  #24  
Old 10-24-20, 02:51 PM
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At least for testing, change Location 058 (Zone 8 Configuration) to 002. That removes the slow the slow response.
 
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Old 10-27-20, 10:12 AM
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Thank you. I tried what you suggested and still no alarm with a dead short across the terms. Unless anyone has another suggestion, I have to assume there is an issue with the panel. It seems odd that all burglar alarms work, no system errors showing, all of the panic buttons will alarm, but can't get the 24-hr configured alarms to sound. This included zone 8, 7, and also reconfigured zone 6 with no success.
Any other ideas?
 
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Old 10-27-20, 05:43 PM
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As long as the zone jumpers are cut, the zone will not work with the fire zone.
 
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Old 10-28-20, 09:51 AM
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All zone jumpers are cut. Not sure if you can tell from the picture posted earlier. Should I solder jumper on zone 8 and see what happens? Nothing to lose at this point.


 
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Old 10-28-20, 03:52 PM
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As previously stated: "If you are feeling ambitious, you could try soldering the jumper back closed"...

Not a certainty that it will make the zone work correctly; but it's all you have to work with at this point.
 
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Old 10-29-20, 05:47 PM
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I reconnected the zone 7 & 8 jumpers and the system now works! Thanks all (especially Ron from Fl) for your help and prompt replies!
 
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