Need recommendations for Vista20p leak sensor


  #1  
Old 01-04-22, 10:08 AM
B
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 8
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Need recommendations for Vista20p leak sensor

I want to add a water leak sensor to my Vista 20p system. I have a pump, a water heater, and a sink all next to each other, so I'd like to use a rope sensor that can cover them all. Honeywell has the 470-12 that can have up to two sensors attached, but only spot sensors to attach to it.

Can anyone recommend either a rope sensor for the 470-12, or a suitable alternative to the 470-12?
 
  #2  
Old 01-04-22, 03:06 PM
R
Member
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: United States
Posts: 59
Received 6 Upvotes on 6 Posts
You didn’t mention if a wired sensor is an absolute requirement. If your Vista-20P has a wireless receiver, the 5800FLOOD might be a good alternative.
 
  #3  
Old 01-11-22, 10:42 AM
B
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 8
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
I would prefer a wired solution. My alarm panel isn't set up for RF, and I was hoping to avoid going that direction. Nevertheless, thank you for the fallback plan.
 
  #4  
Old 01-11-22, 10:52 AM
B
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 8
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Question Can I just use a rope sensor with no electronics

I have a standalone water leak detector. I tested the rope sensor on it. When dry, it's an open connection. When wet, it clocks in at about 15 ohms, perfectly adequate for the Vista 20p to consider it tripped. (I'm ignoring the EOLR in this discussion as it doesn't alter the fundamentals here, but I'll include it when I wire this up.)

Is there any reason why I can't just connect the two conductors of a rope sensor to a zone on the alarm panel and configure it as an N.O. sensor? Why would I need the $100US Honeywell 470-12 or similar electronics in between?
 
  #5  
Old 01-11-22, 06:40 PM
E
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 21
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 2 Posts
How much current do you want this sensor to draw from the panel? 15V across 15 ohms sounds like 1 amp. I think that is the reason not to do that.
 
  #6  
Old 01-11-22, 07:32 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Jersey
Posts: 65,440
Received 4,051 Upvotes on 3,634 Posts
Alarm input points are current limited.

A normally operating point measures approx. 2.5vdc. An open circuit may measure 5vdc.
A short would need to be down around .5vdc or lower.

I find it hard to believe that a rope sensor approaches 15 ohms.
Is that a long piece placed in a pail of water ?
That wouldn't be a realistic detector of water.

The amplifier is used so that a slight decrease in resistance will cause a sensor dead short to the panel.
 
  #7  
Old 01-12-22, 10:10 AM
B
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 8
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Thank you, EdLank, I hadn't considered the current draw.

Thanks also to PJmax. I retested my measurements and found I'd made a basic rookie mistake. We're dealing with a lot more than 15 ohms there.

So now I know why I need the electronics, two questions:
1) The Honeywell 470-12 is made for a contact sensor instead of a rope sensor. Does anyone have any guesses as to whether it will work with a rope sensor, or am I back to the wireless 5800Flood?
2) Are there any recommendations for less expensive alternatives to the 470-12? All I want is a wired-in rope water sensor. It doesn't seem like it should be this hard to find.

Thanks in advance for any assistance anyone can provide.
 
  #8  
Old 01-12-22, 10:24 AM
B
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 8
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Actually, even the 5800Flood doesn't meet my requirements, since it appears to be a point sensor instead of a rope sensor.
 
  #9  
Old 01-12-22, 12:02 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Jersey
Posts: 65,440
Received 4,051 Upvotes on 3,634 Posts
There are rope sensors but they are very expensive.
 
  #10  
Old 01-12-22, 01:02 PM
B
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 8
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
The ropes themselves aren't hard to find, usually as extensions for existing sensors. It's the electronics that will interface them with the panel that I'm not finding much of. I suppose I could take a stand-alone battery powered one and replace the siren with a relay, but I was hoping for something a little more off-the-shelf. What are you aware of, Pete? Maybe if I know what I'm looking for, I can hunt up a used one on ebay or in my local gadget shop at a reasonable price.
 
  #11  
Old 01-17-22, 02:58 PM
B
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 8
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Just to follow up, I got in contact with a technician at AlarmGrid.com. The only product he could find that he thought would work was the WD-2PR series from Kele: https://www.kele.com/leak/wd-2pr.aspx. The prices were pretty outrageous, though at US$167 for the base detector (no rope), or $215 for the detector and 10' of rope, with prices going up from there. I form my opinion of "outrageous" based on the belief that the only difference between it and a stand-alone model would be to replace the sounder with a relay, and stand-alone products can be purchased for as little as US$20.

There's a market here for someone that wants to start a little home business I think. Modify an existing product, sell them for $40 and you'll probably make $15 profit each. Or make your own and you could probably make $35 each!
 
  #12  
Old 01-18-22, 07:19 PM
E
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 21
Upvotes: 0
Received 2 Upvotes on 2 Posts
The Honeywell RWD41 is such a product. It has a rope sensor and is battery powered (9V) and triggers an audible piezo sounder. I saw a description on another security system forum (now gone when the sponsoring company went out of business, and I cannot even recall its name). The poster wrote that he disassembled the RWD41 and found the circuit board had the traces and holes for more components, so he analyzed it, and added the relay and diodes to make it a remote sensor with binary output for an alarm. I thought "I can do that!" and bought the components, but found it uses SMD (surface mount devices) components and I had never soldered such tiny components. I did it, but it did not work. I may have shorted the ends of a diode or overheated and ruined one, or something like that. I ran out of time before I could debug it.

Anyway, clearly Honeywell designed the board for a freestanding battery powered water alert and as a device to be part of a system. They just never brought the system component into production. I also planned to add a DC/DC converter to avoid the battery, but with it not working, skipped that part.

That other forum was a treasure chest of wisdom on security systems. Unfortunately, Keeper deleted all my records when I paid to upgrade, and they say it is my fault. I had the site saved in Keeper, so could have told you the site. It may have been archived somewhere.
 
  #13  
Old 02-20-22, 04:55 PM
J
Member
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 2
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Upvote on 1 Post
What about using a 2600T?

Will the 2600T with a WM2600-10 do what you want? I am totally new to alarms, I will in fact be replacing an old DSC PC1500 with a 20P myself very soon, so hopefully I understood what they were describing on their website (GRI | George Risk Industries | Magnetic Reed Switches | Data Entry Peripherals | Push Button Switches | Keyboard Switches | Proximity Sensors | Engraved Keycaps). I think I saw somewhere the WM2600T was ~$100. If all rope sensors are the same perhaps use Eve Home’s Water Guard extension cable instead of the WM2600T. I believe it costs less money and has 3.5mm connectors on their end for forming long “ropes”. Please let us know if you solve this, as I am interested in the same thing.

Thanks,
JD
 
bmartin voted this post useful.
  #14  
Old 02-20-22, 09:19 PM
B
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 8
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Looks good to me. I found it at JMAC for $30 plus shipping. I ordered one and we'll see. Thank you for sharing this.

Re the Eve extension cables, I already modified my old Honeywell battery operated sensor to have a male 3.5mm plug on the end, added two Eve extensions, and it tested out just fine.I can use the same ones for the 2600T if it works as expected.

Re the DSC vs the Vista -- the Vista has some odd quirks I'm told, though I haven't tested these myself. I understand that it sends door-open messages to keyboards and add-ons, but doesn't send door-closed, apparently assuming those after some interval of time. (It knows, but add-on boards don't). Also, when in some sort of Armed state (notably STAY mode), it doesn't report sensors at all to add-on devices. So some non-alarm sensor (e.g. motion sensor activity isn't an alarm in STAY mode) doesn't get reported. This doesn't matter for straight alarm purposes, but if you want to tie some of these sensors into a home automation system, they won't know of these other activities. That's all second hand, I think from information from the Envisalink 4 add-on board, but I can't find the article now. By inference, I gathered that the DSC doesn't have these quirks. You'll want to try to verify my fuzzy recollection, but I wanted you to be aware.

Thanks again for the GRI recommendation. I'll see how it goes.
 
  #15  
Old 02-21-22, 07:50 AM
J
Member
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 2
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Upvote on 1 Post
Thanks for the heads up on the possible 20P behavior and the Eve extension cables. Please let me know how the 2600T works.

I don’t know how much home automation I’ll be doing yet. The big thing is the water sensor. I had an HVAC condensate pump overflow once, so I want to monitor for that so I can shutoff the HVAC and fix things. I like the idea of a rope sensor rather than a single point. I may tie in the alarm’s output to turn off power to the HVAC or get a smart thermostat. HydroCheck sells a stand alone device called a WaterWatcher that will do that as well. I do plan on getting an Envisalink after I finish the alarm installation, so I can monitor for a leak via the alarm when I’m away.
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: