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  #1  
Old 09-27-09, 10:27 AM
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Looking for comments regarding website

After reading in our appliances forum, regarding how the poster is looking to dismantle their washing machine to use the motor out of it for a "cavitation heater", my curiousity was piced. So I went to the search engine. I read a website that said things which seem hard to understand, and also unbelievable. Here is the site:

Cavitation Heaters

Now go to the 4th blue paragraph and tell me how they derived at the 2nd sentence.

And also the paragraph below it and the photo that begins at "At Rome.....", where they end by saying that it produces over 100 efficient. How? What do they mean by that? Sounds like magic.

Can you describe the "cavitation heater" in more lay terms, and cite common applications that we might be familiar with, or familiar with the principles of this?
 
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  #2  
Old 09-29-09, 04:32 AM
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How cavitation works

I looked the article over; but, it's getting close to my bed time; and, it seems simpler to just address the basic question of how cavitation works, rather than the article.

"Cavitation" is the result of micro-bubbles which occur in a hydraulic system. When these micro-bubbles implode, a great deal of heat (cumulatively) results. It would take a long explanation to explain why; but, it's a long known fact which has been extremely problematic in industrial applications. A "cavitation heater" simply turns one person's problem into another person's solution.

The claims of over-unity come more from thinking that only a certain amount of heat can be obtained from a certain amount of electricity. This "thought box" doesn't factor in other reactions which occur. An iron-clad interpretation of this mind set would consider a compact fluorescent bulb would have a COP of over 4; since, it's putting out 60 watts of light for 13 watts of electricity... In both instances, the electricity used is a catalyst for subsequent reactions, which are just a lot more efficient than the way we've been doing things. There is a rather common misconception that anything with a COP over 1 is "free energy" or even "perpetual motion;" but, typically, the problem is that other factors simply aren't being included in the equation.

I'm now up way past my bedtime; so, I'll leave it at that, for now. It might be a few days before I'm able to get back. Bear in mind, though, that there were serious proposals, in 1899, to close the patent office; since, "everything of any importance has already been invented..."
 

Last edited by MsKathy; 09-29-09 at 04:46 AM. Reason: exhaustion
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Old 09-29-09, 07:59 AM
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I have a big problem with this statement from that website:

" As a result this process is producing 70% more energy than was put into the system."

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thats' one of the basic tenets of physics. This "cavitation heater" sounds like wishful thinking along the lines of perpetual motion machines. Unless you're talking heat pumps, one watt of electricity is going to deliver 3.413 BTU of heat, regardless of all the bells and whistles. That's why I shake my head at these ads in the Sunday newsmagazines for $400 "miracle" electric heaters that somehow will heat your house on a standard 15 amp circuit for half of what it costs to heat with your usual heating sytem.
 
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Old 09-29-09, 08:45 AM
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I'm in the middle of my work day and I will read and respond to the posts later. This subject sounds hard to understand, how things are worded, regarding this.
 
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Old 09-29-09, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Beachboy View Post
That's why I shake my head at these ads in the Sunday newsmagazines for $400 "miracle" electric heaters that somehow will heat your house on a standard 15 amp circuit for half of what it costs to heat with your usual heating sytem.
Ah yessssssss.......that Bob Villa endorsed one, and also the new faux fireplace one they are now advertising.
 
  #6  
Old 09-29-09, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachboy View Post
, one watt of electricity is going to deliver 3.413 BTU of heat, regardless of all the bells and whistles. That's why I shake my head at these ads in the Sunday newsmagazines for $400 "miracle" electric heaters that somehow will heat your house on a standard 15 amp circuit for half of what it costs to heat with your usual heating sytem.
But did you see their comparative heat camera (infrared imaging?) pictures (on the tv infomercial that showed with their heater how the heat warms the entire room from floor to ceiling from floor to ceiling in 13 minutes? - but with the typical conventional electric space heater, the bulk of the heat is just going up to the ceiling? An amazing difference in the two pictures they showed.

They do not claim it will heat your house. They even show on tv how they turn the house stat down somewheres between 50-60, and then use their heater in one room. They also claim that you can save up to 50%..... All kinds of factors come into play. Like what if you compared a tight one room house to some old leaky many-room house. You'd save far more in dollars and percent in the large leaky house, by cordoning off one room and using that space heater.

That is what I was more or less doing where I lived to save up to about 37% on total energy, with a radiant quartz infrared blowerless tower space heater in front of me. (Although I also was taking advantage of 1/2 price on off-peak kw rate in the evening when I got home!) The house would be about 53-56 degrees elsewhere, while behind me the thermometer would get to 72-74 or so!

What I am not sure about though is your argument you make that only a certain X btu can be generated per X watt of electric. But say you are right - If there is not a way to do this, then I guess we can be mindful of that fact - but they still can lay claim to the fact if their heater warms up an entire room in 13 minutes, where the other (same watt)space heater only heats the ceiling in that time. Even if the same amount of heat escaped the heating element, what good does it do anyone at the ceiling?
 
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Old 09-29-09, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MsKathy View Post
"Cavitation" is the result of micro-bubbles which occur in a hydraulic system. When these micro-bubbles implode, a great deal of heat (cumulatively) results. It would take a long explanation to explain why; but, it's a long known fact which has been extremely problematic in industrial applications. A "cavitation heater" simply turns one person's problem into another person's solution.
It's your last sentence. How? And if cavitation from bubbles (that I can understand) causes heat, and this is a problem, then why do you want to make a cavitation heater(out of a washing machine motor)? Why not make a de-cavitation heater?

Or - do you suppose that you have found a way to make free heat by churning bubbles in fluid? If so, what is the projected heat gain? Anything really useful? Enough to offset the cost of running the motor? If so, this is fascinating to learn more about.

The claims of over-unity come more from thinking that only a certain amount of heat can be obtained from a certain amount of electricity. This "thought box" doesn't factor in other reactions which occur. An iron-clad interpretation of this mind set would consider a compact fluorescent bulb would have a COP of over 4; since, it's putting out 60 watts of light for 13 watts of electricity... In both instances, the electricity used is a catalyst for subsequent reactions, which are just a lot more efficient than the way we've been doing things. There is a rather common misconception that anything with a COP over 1 is "free energy" or even "perpetual motion;" but, typically, the problem is that other factors simply aren't being included in the equation.
I follow this thought process. And if your first sentence is true, then it is possible, at least in theory, that one space heater that uses X watts can generate more heat than some other space heater using the same X watts?


Bear in mind, though, that there were serious proposals, in 1899, to close the patent office; since, "everything of any importance has already been invented..."
I heard of that one. Yes, that is a good one alright. I fell prey to that same reasoning when I was a teenager, living in the modern age.
 
  #8  
Old 10-19-09, 12:37 AM
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Quick note

I've been really busy lately; and, it's looking like things might be getting even more hectic for a while. When I can get my heater put together and tested, I'll post my results here, either way...

Regarding the question above, about "de-cavitation" : DEcavitation would defeat the whole purpose of trying this. The "general idea" is to put the heat generated by the cavitaion process to use! Going back to my comparison with a compact fluorescent bulb versus an incandescent bulb, the electricty used is triggering another reaction. Can I fully explain that reaction? No. I'm not even a hyraulics professional, much less a scientist. I'm just someone who lives out in the boonies, has a lot of junk laying around, has more time than money, and is tired of being cold in the winter. All I really know is that there are a LOT more patents based on this principle than I've been able to download (I'm well past the 200 point); and, from what I've read in hydraulics related literature, cavitation causes a lot of heat. Also, that some rather nasty things seem to happen to folks who try to go into production with these things; so, they must be stepping on somebody's toes... If this thing works, I'll report my own results, use it for reducing my own propane bill, and let other folks do whatever they want to with the information... What the heck, it's not costing me anything but a little time to play around with this; and, if any "nasty characters" were to show up to try to harm me (probably not very likely; since, I'm just doing it for my own personal use), at least I DO live in a state with a "stand your ground" law...
At least I WAS able to get some propane last week; so, that bought me some time. Good thing; since, I'm having problems getting stuff apart without having a spanner wrench.
 
  #9  
Old 10-19-09, 03:26 AM
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A good link for getting a better understanding of cavitation

I haven't read through all of this PDF; but, it seems to lay a good, general groundwork for understanding what cavitation is and some of its current uses.
http://mittonvalve.com/media/cavitation.pdf

One interesting comment occurs on page 3, where it makes referrence to non-Neutonian physics. At this point of my reading this, there hasn't been any mention of using cavitation as a heater; but, there have been several referrences to using cooling methods to counteract the heat being produced.

Also, I should've mentioned in my earlier post that the ONLY use of electricity in one of these heaters is to spin the inner drum, in an oil bath. Since the drag is minimal, the amount of electricity needed to spin the inner drum is minimal. It's the cavitation which produces the heat; electricity is only used to cause the spinning motion, causing cavitation to occur in the oil.
 
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Old 10-19-09, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MsKathy View Post
I've been really busy lately; and, it's looking like things might be getting even more hectic for a while. When I can get my heater put together and tested, I'll post my results here, either way...

Regarding the question above, about "de-cavitation" : DEcavitation would defeat the whole purpose of trying this. The "general idea" is to put the heat generated by the cavitaion process to use! Going back to my comparison with a compact fluorescent bulb versus an incandescent bulb, the electricty used is triggering another reaction. Can I fully explain that reaction? No. I'm not even a hyraulics professional, much less a scientist. I'm just someone who lives out in the boonies, has a lot of junk laying around, has more time than money, and is tired of being cold in the winter. All I really know is that there are a LOT more patents based on this principle than I've been able to download (I'm well past the 200 point); and, from what I've read in hydraulics related literature, cavitation causes a lot of heat. Also, that some rather nasty things seem to happen to folks who try to go into production with these things; so, they must be stepping on somebody's toes... If this thing works, I'll report my own results, use it for reducing my own propane bill, and let other folks do whatever they want to with the information... What the heck, it's not costing me anything but a little time to play around with this; and, if any "nasty characters" were to show up to try to harm me (probably not very likely; since, I'm just doing it for my own personal use), at least I DO live in a state with a "stand your ground" law...
At least I WAS able to get some propane last week; so, that bought me some time. Good thing; since, I'm having problems getting stuff apart without having a spanner wrench.
You mean there is actually enough heat generated to actually have a positive energy gain, beyond that of electrical generation costs? Sounds unbelievable, if I must say. It sounds like someone trying to run their car engine with their brakes dragging so they can harness the heat from the dragging brakes. ??? Where am I wrong in my thinking?

You live in the sticks and have time to experiment. Love it. You are my kind of person. If you have any interesting stories regarding things you have done and learned to do that might help us out, post about them in our chat forum way down there near the bottom of all the forums here. There are many other regular posters here, that I know, that would also be interested, I can assure you. And then they could argue with you also why maybe some of the plans will not work.

Do you subscribe to Mother Earth News(build earth berm homes, your own wind genmerator, turn old refrigerators into smokers, grow lawns on your roof with goats up there, etc.), and/or ASHRAE (HVAC engineering) magazines?
 
  #11  
Old 10-23-09, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
You mean there is actually enough heat generated to actually have a positive energy gain, beyond that of electrical generation costs? Sounds unbelievable, if I must say. It sounds like someone trying to run their car engine with their brakes dragging so they can harness the heat from the dragging brakes. ??? Where am I wrong in my thinking?

And then they could argue with you also why maybe some of the plans will not work.

Do you subscribe to Mother Earth News(build earth berm homes, your own wind genmerator, turn old refrigerators into smokers, grow lawns on your roof with goats up there, etc.), and/or ASHRAE (HVAC engineering) magazines?
The ONLY thing that the electric motor does is spin the inner cylinder in an oil bath, which puts VERY little load on the motor. The heat is produced by the resulting chemical reaction; hence, my comparison to a compact flourescent bulb outputting more light (by using the electricity simply as a catalyst for a chemical reaction) than an incandescent bulb would for the same wattage...

I don't have much in the way of time for just hanging out on forums right now. I have some physical disabilities which make getting things done about 20+ times slower than than they would've been before I got hurt. By the time I go on-line, it's generally in search of specific information. This is especially true right now; since, I'm needing to get this project up and working before it gets much colder around here. If not, my dogs and I are going to be getting pretty darned cold; since, I haven't been able to afford enough propane this year to not have to severely ration it. I do have a wood stove; but, I've VERY uneasy about using it much in my mobile home... (Not even factoring in how hard it is to tote wood with a couple of lumbar disk that are totally deteriorated.)

I've talked to enough folks who are familiar with cavitation to know that the principles are sound; so, I'm not interested in debating the fundamental principles with folks who just want to shoot down anything which is "outside of the box." (Not referring to you; since, you seem genuinely curious.) If some specific point or method "isn't going to work," I'm interested in substitute "work arounds;" but, {{{I'M}}} the only one who will scrap the project; and, then, ONLY when I've tinkered with it enough to satisfy myself that it won't work... I'm not interested in the opinions of naysayers who haven't even tried it. Most of my computer time lately has been spent reading through the patents I've been able to download, to minimize the amount of time I spend "reinventing the wheel."

As for other stuff: I have a start made on an underground; but, now that I'm into a pretty solid sandstone shelf, that's on hold until I can afford to rent a backhoe for about a month. I tinker around with hydroxy; but, I'm having to wait until I can scrape together the money for an EFIE unit before trying it out on my truck, to see how much of a milage improvement I can get. I've done weird stuff that's worked like skirting my mobile home with "dead" refrigerators and freezers; and, fencing my 7 acres with "dead" mattress' and box springs. It still looks pretty crappy; but, I'm getting climbing plants established; so, eventually, I'll have a pretty descent looking privacy fence. I've gotten "pretty creative" in a few other areas, too; but, this isn't the right venue for going into some of those details... I'm up over 2 hours past my bed time, anyway; so, I let it go at that...

BTW, old water heater tanks make really good bar b-q'ers and smokers. I used to build and sell them back in the '80's. I haven't ever tried making one out of an old refrigerator, though...
 
  #12  
Old 10-23-09, 07:45 AM
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Let us know, in all honesty, how your cavitation project works out for you. Yes, I am genuinely curious and have no mind to talk you out of it. Sounds like you have spent a lot of time researching this.

Regarding burning wood in the trailer, hopefully you have a good stainless double or triple wall stack and have one of those woodstove pads underneath, and maybe out in front. I know that going to bed, or leaving the house with something like that going can be a little disconcerning. Also remember not to store volitile liquids that have vapors escape that can creep along the floor. Sometimes, people who live in trailers packrat all kinds of stuff that should not be in the trailer. All it takes sometimes is a curious cat or a dog's tail.

Hopefully your health does not get you down, too badly. My best wishes.
 
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