More about siding

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Old 02-08-10, 07:53 AM
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More about siding

I've been going around and around on lap siding types (fiber cement vs. vinyl vs. aluminum). I was leaning towards fiber-cement, but only because vinyl can't be painted darker colors but now I"m seeing they make darker colors in vinyl. Fiber-cement needs sheathing behind it here for impact resistance anyway, and vinyl would be easier to install I think? This would be DIY installation.

One question I have about all types: can individual planks (laps?) be replaced if needed? I read somewhere that with vinyl the whole wall would have to be redone. Fiber cement can be face nailed (through both planks) or blind nailed (top edge of underlying laps only). Does the nailing method affect whether individual laps can be replaced?

Water damage on bottom edges could be an issue with fiber cement because of the small distance between my bottom plate and grade on gable ends. This would be a problem especially if bottom courses can't be replaced easily.

During hurricanes the house gets hit by your odd branch or whatnot, so anything would need to be easily replaceable. There will be sheathing underneath so I'm not sure impact resistance of the siding is much of an issue.

Any recommendations for south Florida (hot/humid/wet in summer/damage-replacement issues)?
 

Last edited by suobs; 02-08-10 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 02-18-10, 10:16 PM
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Hi suobs,
1) You can replace individual fibre cement and vinyl and aluminum planks. All are fairly easy. I can detail if needed.
2) Run the roof flashing up higher by adding a piece to the wall. You can get colored alum. roll flashing from various manufacturers.
3) Vinyl is easiest to replace, but also breaks easier.

Richard
 
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Old 02-19-10, 04:25 AM
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I'd appreciate the detail on how to replace a single lap, since I'm having trouble visualizing it.

You must have to lever up the plank above the one you're replacing, but doesn't that crack it or break the nailholes? And then it seems like an impossible position for nailing down the new one.
 
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Old 02-19-10, 06:34 AM
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Vinyl siding is very easy to install. I think they are getting better about fading but pretty much everything will fade with exposure to the sun even the paint on cement siding. If you go with a premium vinyl siding you will get a better product as far a strength and color. Vinyl siding is also very easy to remove, replace, or change if you decide to want a window someplace. It just unzips and your good to go. They also sell vinyl with foam backer which adds a little R-value and impact resistance. The only "hard" part is getting the J-channel around windows and doors to look good but that just takes practice.

Fiber cement siding is more labor intensive to install but it is not hard to do. They now have power shears to cut the stuff so you are not in a dust storm and they also have blades to cut it with your Skil saw that are fairly inexpensive. You mentioned that fiber needs sheathing behind it but vinyl is the same way. In fact, if your sheathing is not flat the bumps will transmit to the vinyl and it will look wavy. After installing the siding you will then have to caulk all the seams (also while you are installing it) and then paint the entire house. You can get the prepainted stuff but I guess it is quite spendy.
 
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Old 02-19-10, 06:48 AM
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just to clarify

You caulk the vertical joints, not the horizontal where the laps meet.
 
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Old 02-19-10, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand View Post
Vinyl siding . . . I think they are getting better about fading but pretty much everything will fade with exposure to the sun
It seems to me the big advantage of fiber cement is that you can repaint it. I've been told painting is a waste of time with vinyl. So if it's faded and you have to replace one, (assuming they still make the color) you either live with it or have to redo the whole wall.

Steve
 
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Old 02-19-10, 09:14 AM
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"I've been told painting is a waste of time with vinyl"

Not sure I understand
I agree vinyl is better left unpainted but sometimes folks will buy a house and just don't like the vinyl color. With proper prep and the correct coating a paint job on vinyl can last 10 yrs or more.
 
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Old 02-20-10, 06:47 AM
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Well, maybe that advice about painting vinyl was wrong, and now I'm looking on the internet and seeing info to the contrary.
 
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Old 02-20-10, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by suobs View Post
Well, maybe that advice about painting vinyl was wrong, and now I'm looking on the internet and seeing info to the contrary.
I think in the past painting vinyl siding was a bad idea and wouldn't last because of how much it moves. The better paints now days can work better on vinyl. You wouldn't want to paint it a dark color though due to heat absorption. Here is a blurb from what I feel is a trusted source: Painting Vinyl Siding | Painting | Reader's Digest

Here is another good artical i thought you would be interested in: How to Remove and Install Vinyl Siding | Siding | Reader's Digest
 
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Old 02-20-10, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand View Post
Vinyl siding is very easy to install.
Well that's appealing! Considering your installation recommendation and comments about painting, vinyl is starting to sound much better. I'll be installing 2d floor long gable ends from a lift so I'm not looking forward to putting up 12' fiber cement planks.

If I start with a darker color (sage green) I guess vinyl will be fine if it has to be painted with a color in the same range, right?

Still, my vision of a butt connection where two vinyl lap planks meet is a floppy wavy vinyl surface that won't hold caulk . . . not accurate?

Also, there are places where the laps would butt against wood, like gable ends to the fascia board. How does the mandatory vinyl 3/8" gap get covered there?
 
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Old 02-20-10, 11:11 AM
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"Easy to install" is all relative. A floppy 12' piece of vinyl siding isn't very easy to lock into place on a windy day when you are 20' high and working by yourself. You also don't need to install a bunch of j-channels and finish trims when working with fiber cement. Not that I'm advocating one or the other, just stating the facts. The easiest vinyl siding I have ever worked with was "Structure" by Alcoa. It has ISO foam laminated to the back of it, making it lay very straight, making it easier for one person to lock into place.

With fiber cement, they do make various types of gauges that you can hook onto the siding. Then you have something to rest your next piece on while you reach for the nail gun.



image credit: acehardware dot com

And you don't caulk vinyl siding together. On a gable end, the siding fits up into a j-channel, and the edge of the j-channel can be caulked if desired... but not the siding, even where they overlap. (the vertical joints to caulk that marksr mentioned were on fiber cement) Water can get behind vinyl siding in multiple places, making the WRB behind it very important.
 
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Old 02-20-10, 02:01 PM
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painting vinyl

Traditionally because vinyl is color sensitive, it was best to paint vinyl the same or a lighter color. This prevented the siding from absorbing more heat than it was made to handle = warping

Since I've retired, they've come out with a paint additive that supposedly lets you paint vinyl any color - I've not used it. It's important for the siding to be clean! It's best to add about 15-20% emulsa bond to the latex paint, it will help with adhesion. Generally no primer is needed, especially if you can get coverage with 1 coat. It is important to use a good grade of latex paint.
 
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Old 02-20-10, 02:40 PM
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Vinyl siding also has holes in the bottom that allows water to get out from behind the siding if needed. I also agree with Sleeper, a house wrap like Tyvek would be a must but the same can be said with fiber cement. I am not pro vinyl or fiber. Each are good products and have pros and cons and different looks.

Another pro I thought of for vinyl is you can pretty much do all your work with a hammer and a pair of tin snips.
 
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Old 02-20-10, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by suobs View Post
I'd appreciate the detail on how to replace a single lap, since I'm having trouble visualizing it.

You must have to lever up the plank above the one you're replacing, but doesn't that crack it or break the nailholes? And then it seems like an impossible position for nailing down the new one.
Assuming the plank is blind nailed; break ( or cut horizontally the depth of the siding- then break ) the siding out from under the top plank. Use a pry bar or similar to pound down the nails. slid in a new piece and I use 16 gauge stainless finish nails ( with air ) through the bottom original and the top of the replacement sheet ~ every 8".
Face nailed; use recip. saw to cut nails holding bad sheet including the sheet above. Use scrap sheet metal inserted behind sheet where saw blade will travel to avoid marking sheet or cutting paper.
vinyl; use a zip tool ( ~$10.00 @ lumberyard) to unlock the two sheets above the one your replacing. remove the nails holding the replaceable sheet, r + r with new sheet. Use the zip tool to pull the top two sheets back into place.
Richard
 
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Old 02-20-10, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by alwaysFlOoReD View Post
use a zip tool ( ~$10.00 @ lumberyard) to unlock the two sheets above the one your replacing. remove the nails holding the replaceable sheet, r + r with new sheet. Use the zip tool to pull the top two sheets back into place.
Thanks for remembering that question! Your instructions are for fiber-c or vinyl or both? Zip tool is for vinyl, no? But face-nailing ("through the bottom original and top of the replacement sheet") wouldn't work on vinyl, or would it?
 

Last edited by suobs; 02-20-10 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 02-20-10, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand View Post
I also agree with Sleeper, a house wrap like Tyvek would be a must but the same can be said with fiber cement
At the risk of starting a controversy, I think I detect a recommendation to not use 30# builder's felt?

Speaking of house wrap, I think I asked in another thread about this, but just to double-check . . . I plan on putting the lap over the existing T1-11 siding, which does not have sheathing behind it just builder's felt. I'll put the new wrap (whatever you guys recommend) over the plywood, then the lap siding over that. Make sense? One concern was whether having the plywood sandwiched between two waterproof layers would cause a problem.

The only real defects in the T1-11 are minor cracks in the top layer, some small bulges where it's starting to delaminate (these I'll slice and glue back down), and some shallow oval areas where the top ply was removed (I think the previous owner must have thought he was scraping off peeling paint). Minor rot along the bottom edges I'll fix with an epoxy filler.
 

Last edited by suobs; 02-20-10 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 02-21-10, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by alwaysFlOoReD View Post
- Fiber cement - Assuming the plank is blind nailed; break ( or cut horizontally the depth of the siding- then break ) the siding out from under the top plank. Use a pry bar or similar to pound down the nails. slid in a new piece and I use 16 gauge stainless finish nails ( with air ) through the bottom original and the top of the replacement sheet ~ every 8".
- Fiber cement - Face nailed; use recip. saw to cut nails holding bad sheet including the sheet above. Use scrap sheet metal inserted behind sheet where saw blade will travel to avoid marking sheet or cutting paper.
- Vinyl siding ; use a zip tool ( ~$10.00 @ lumberyard) to unlock the two sheets above the one your replacing. remove the nails holding the replaceable sheet, r + r with new sheet. Use the zip tool to pull the top two sheets back into place.
Richard
Clarified quote - I hope. Vinyl siding is never face nailed. If you have to, use a nail or screw through the drip hole at bottom of sheet. Colored alum. nail - good or colored screw - better. Also clear silicone caulking can be applied to inside bottom of sheet - best
Richard
 
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Old 02-21-10, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by suobs View Post
At the risk of starting a controversy, I think I detect a recommendation to not use 30# builder's felt?

Speaking of house wrap, I think I asked in another thread about this, but just to double-check . . . I plan on putting the lap over the existing T1-11 siding, which does not have sheathing behind it just builder's felt. I'll put the new wrap (whatever you guys recommend) over the plywood, then the lap siding over that. Make sense? One concern was whether having the plywood sandwiched between two waterproof layers would cause a problem.

The only real defects in the T1-11 are minor cracks in the top layer, some small bulges where it's starting to delaminate (these I'll slice and glue back down), and some shallow oval areas where the top ply was removed (I think the previous owner must have thought he was scraping off peeling paint). Minor rot along the bottom edges I'll fix with an epoxy filler.
Not sure what t1-11 is but I'll assume it's plywood that simulates vertical cedar siding. The WRB should allow moisture to move away from the building but not towards, so shouldn't be a problem. Also the grooves in the plywood would help drain water to the bottom - so don't block water flow.
Richard
 
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Old 02-21-10, 10:19 AM
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Richard....
Just wondering where you are located? I thought T1-11 was a pretty universal designation...could be wrong...so let us know ok? Hate to be using terms that are different in some areas.....Thanks.
 
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Old 02-21-10, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Gunguy45 View Post
Richard....
Just wondering where you are located? I thought T1-11 was a pretty universal designation...could be wrong...so let us know ok? Hate to be using terms that are different in some areas.....Thanks.
Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
I've never used it, probably why I don't know the name.
Richard
P.S. I notice that there is a location under the join date for everyone else, how do I do that?
 
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Old 02-21-10, 09:10 PM
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I've used a lot of T1-11, but I've never seen it actually officially called that on the sheet markings or on store labels, altho I think it's a tradename of Louisiana Pacific so maybe that company doesn't get where I am either.

Basically it's exterior plywood with one side rough sawn to look like cedar, sometimes with vertical grooves to look like board and batten . . . but not always with grooves and not mine. My house has vertical battens nailed at studs over plain T1-11 (no grooves). The battens will come off before the lap goes on.
 
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Old 02-22-10, 05:11 AM
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It's always been my understanding that T-111 has narrow grooves at 6" or 8" intervals. The plywood siding that has the wide grooves at 12" intervals is call RB&B or reverse board and batten.

I'm like Vic, I thought T-111 was a universal term..... but I've never worked in Canada
 
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