cedar siding and staining

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  #1  
Old 08-01-10, 04:34 PM
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cedar siding and staining

well....its that time again where i need to stain the face of my garage. It sits in direct sun most of the day.

The previous owner used the Behr Premium weather proofing stuff from HomeDepot and that is what i used the last time. It looks really good. It is a semi transparent style stain.

The problem is....it starts to peel because of the sun (and probably the quality of the stain). I cant complain too bad. This last one i did lasted 3 - 4 years. I used the same thing on my deck and need to do that ever 1.5 - 2 years (again in direct sunlight).

I have been to a place that sells the Sikkens product. I cant find a comparable color to the Behr Natrual Wood Tone Cedar 501 stuff.

I didnt have that place mix up any semi transparent stuff. Apparently they have to mix that and dont have any test stuff for the Semi Transparent.

A gallon of that stuff was upwards of 70 to 80 bucks.

Now the question. Do i go with another better quality product and hope it will last longer or go Behr again? Heck id think a 3 - 4 year job in direct sunlight is pretty good. What can i expect out of somthing of better quality. I know Behr sucks but can i expect to get longer life out of any stain in direct sunlight and 4 months of snow?

The behr stuff was almost a coating. It seeped in and gave a stained coating which held up decent (hence semi transparent i suppose).

Im just wondering if i should spend the extra money...get a better product and prey that it will match the house and deck when finished

I also cant remember how i prepped the garage siding last time. I dont recall if i stripped off the old. It seems to me i did but i cant remember what product i used to do it. I know i used a cleaner but i cant recal if i used somthing else prior to strip or if the cleaner did the stripping. I remember when i went to stain the siding....the boards were raw and bright white or Extremely light brown from the cleaner / bleach solution.

My guess is that any stain i choose is going to break down if it sits in direct sunlight.

Funny...the front of my house was done 6 years ago and still looks brand new. It is fully shaded. Im not sure what product is up there but it must be the sun that is killing my deck / garage and rear of the house.

Id like to take a long weekend and bang out the back of the house...the deck and the garage.
 
  #2  
Old 08-02-10, 04:43 AM
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I don't think I've ever used any sikkens stain but they do have a good reputation. I've also not used much behr and it doesn't have a great reputation.

Dark colors will often fail quicker than the lighter tones and a lot of direct sun along with the other elements can be hard on any coating. Generally you don't need to strip the existing stain before you restain but any/all failing stain should be removed!

I'd suggest going to your local paint store [not a paint dept] and discussing your options with them. Neighbors and local painters should know the most about which coatings hold up the best in your locale.

Generally the better coatings are worth the extra cost although occasionally there are circumstances that cause a superior coating not to hold up much better than a cheap coating
 
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Old 08-02-10, 10:13 PM
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I'd suggest Flood products

I've used Behr and found that it didn't hold up well at all. My deck is in the sun and in the winter we need to remove the snow from it. I found that when I shoveled the snow, the stain came off with the snow. The next year we stripped the Behr product off again (not fun) and put on Flood CWF. It's also available at Home Depot and a much, much better product. It's worth it to pay a bit more for the product and not have to deal with restaining as often.
 
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Old 08-03-10, 07:15 AM
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I love the look of flood's CWF. I have it on my covered front and back porches along with the steps. The only problem with CWF is it doesn't hold up real well in full sun and rain. My steps need to be redone most every year although I can wait 2 yrs before it really needs it.
 
  #5  
Old 08-25-10, 05:58 AM
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well im still removing the old stain. I cant find anything in the same color and im afraid it wont match once im done. Im having problems getting the old stuff off the rough sawn cedar siding. I dont want to sand because it probably wont help get into the nicks of the rough sawn areas.

I have some MD-80 stripper that i have been using. I believe this stuff i have is acrylic stain.

I have silicone that seals the corners and seams of the siding and it is clear. THe stain under it will never match any other stain.

If i go with an oil based stain......it might not look right.

What i need is to find a few houses that have the product on the house that looks like my house. Looks like a weekend project is going on 1.5 months. What a waste of summer.

If i just stick with Behr i know it will match. I did get 3 -4 years out of the siding which probably isnt that bad considering it is stain. Most reviews i have read on the internet say that is what you can expect on any stain. My horizontal surfaces (the deck) peeled about 1 later.

I hate to say it but maybe i should just stick with behr. At the end of the day im probably not going to be able to get all the old stain completely off the existing wood. It makes it tough to switch to any other product.
 
  #6  
Old 08-25-10, 06:18 AM
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You don't have to remove all the old stain - just what's failing. With translucent/toner stains you must stick with the same color. Semi-transparent needs to be close to the previous color. Solid stains can be changed to most any color.

There a numerous factors that go into how long an exterior stain job will last. Most any siding stain will last 3-5 yrs and have known of some to last 10yrs. Stains used on decks are a different story because they receive more weather. 3 yrs is just about max time although some of the cheap stains won't last 1 yr You can use a deck stain on siding but you shouldn't use a siding stain on decks - they're not formulated for traffic or standing moisture.
 
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Old 08-25-10, 06:54 AM
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thanks...

well im off to the paint store for the 4th time to buy another sample of what i think might match....

i want to put somthing on the house / garage / deck that i can just clean and coat the next time without all the peeling and messing around that i ended up with using the behr product. Oil based may be the way to go but i want to make sure it looks good, matches and doesnt mildew up and mold.

Lots of work. I hope it pays off.

THe behr product is 100% acrylic at 40 bucks per gallon. Sikkens is oil based and is the same price. The cabots brand was sold off to Valspar a couple years ago and the guy at the paint store says it is no where near the quality that it used to be. He shyed me away from that product.

Im really leaning toward sikkens 1 coat srd product. He says that is what all the contractors put on there own houses because they know the quality and reputation.

I just have to find somthing that is the right color. I can find it in the Flood CWF product and of course behr.....


ill get there but i hate when a weekend project turns into a 2 month nightmare. I guess that is all part of owning a home...
 
  #8  
Old 08-26-10, 06:06 AM
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here are some pics of the progress so far

This is the siding before starting:

As you can see it is failing.




after stripping twice

As you can see i still have some of the old product on there. I assume this has to come off?




on this one you can see the top boards are still quite coated:



Here are some close ups of how much product is still left on the siding:






here is what the big picture looks like:




Now on to the house. I have stripped the bottom 3 boards here because they were the only ones that were failing (due to rain spash back from the water comming off the roof and hitting the deck.




 
  #9  
Old 08-26-10, 06:12 AM
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more help with stripping and staining (now with pics)

THe deck as a whole:




as you can see i have most fo the deck completely stripped and sanded away:



Close up of the current stain. THis is the color i would like to find (it is a darker cedar color but you cant quite see the brightness of it ....see above pics of it in the sun to get an idea. I believe this a semi transparent):



As you can see i still have plenty to strip off.

It is a 100% acrylic behr stain that is on their now and i assume i want to compeltely remove it before going with an oil based prodcut right?

I cant really sand the siding due to its rough texture so getting this stuff off has been hard.

on some of most stripped photos above...do you think that is good enough to apply new stain. Im having problems in the corners and under the ridges getting all the small specs off (as you can see).

On the right side of the garage from the top down ....you can see i stil have stripping work to do. I dont know at which point i should throw in the towel......brighten it and stain. How much do i have to remove when switching products like this?

thanks for any help / suggestions. As you can see.....i need it
 
  #10  
Old 08-26-10, 06:53 AM
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I don't know that I've ever switched to oil stain from a latex stain although I've never had any issues from switching from oil to latex.

Generally you don't have to remove all the previous stain to apply the new stain. The raw areas may need 2 coats of stain to make them look the same as the areas that still have stain on them.

I'm not sure if your current stain is semi-transparent or translucent/toner. Given the current state of the siding/stain it might be difficult to get a translucent stain to look right [short of removing 95% of the old stain] but there shouldn't be any issues using a semi-transparent stain providing the color is the same or slightly darker.

That's assuming the remaining stain is bonded well to the wood. What happens if you drag a wire brush along the siding [with the direction of the grain]? I'm not talking about 'scrubbing' the wood with the wire brush, just dragging it across the wood.
 
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Old 08-26-10, 10:22 AM
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dragging across with a wire brush on the stripped areas where there is a bit of old product left doesnt do much. THe old stain stays on the wood.

I need to strip on the garage near the top and over on the right side a bit more.

im still searching for a stain that matches this stuff but is better quality. im nervous about going over the existing stain with the new stuff i find because im afraid it will look bad if i do that.
 
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Old 08-30-10, 05:15 PM
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well.....still no new news. I havent found anything that matches the exisiting stain. I have run another bout of stripper across the whole thing but it didnt remove much more old stain. I think that stain is there to stay for good. im not sure how much more abuse i can give the wood with the stripper. I have sprayed it on and hand strubbed the entire face of the garage, deck and house with a stiff brissle brush. Wood fibers are starting to come off from the stripper and im getting the fuzzy effect.

that said......sikkens cetrol srd 077 natrual cedar isnt even close. THe paint store near me wont mix any semi transparent stuff to test with without purchasing an entire quart at almost $15 bucks. $15 is alot just to test a small area.

I tried a small sample bottle of a darker bottle of Mahogany SRD coloring but that came out nothing like the sample card. It was bright red. The card appeared more of a brown. Blasted $5 there.

Might have to stick with behr again. Christ i dont want to have to do this again in 2 years. Wasted at least a month of summer that could have been better spent doing anything else.

Any other thoughts? Recommendations?
 
  #13  
Old 08-31-10, 04:26 AM
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Often I've had to have paint matched to a brand I don't use. You can buy a quart/gallon of the other brand and take it to the paint store for them to match. I've never had it done with a stain but it should also be doable. You can mix the sample stain in with the better stain if you want - just make sure they have compatible bases, latex with latex, oil with oil.
 
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Old 08-31-10, 05:51 AM
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the place will color match for $20 but no guarantee that it will be close. I cant mix the 2 because im thinking of going to oil from a 100% acyrlic.
 
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Old 08-31-10, 10:48 AM
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You might try another paint store, I've never been charged for custom matching any coating and I've never known the paint stores I've dealt with to charge a walk in customer either.
 
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Old 08-31-10, 04:49 PM
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thanks for the advice. Im looking for another vendor now. I was looking at hirshfields here in Minnesota. I havent been overly impressed with the response from them on my questions. Ive gotten better advice here so far

Appreciate it.
 
  #17  
Old 08-31-10, 07:14 PM
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i stopped of at a place that had cabots tonight. Of course they were out of stock on the 2 or 3 colors i thought would work. The guy at the first paint store stated that a couple years ago cabots was bought by valspar...and that the quality of the stain isnt what it used to be. Not sure how truthful that is. I have read good experiences with cabots and bad.
 
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Old 09-01-10, 05:06 AM
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I used a lot of Cabot stain 30-40 yrs ago but that was back when it was creosote based. I don't think I've used more than an odd gallon or so in the last 10-15 yrs, so I can't comment on their current quality.
 
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Old 09-01-10, 06:03 AM
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the more i read, the more i find that there is no good answer to quality stain. Everyone has tons of different opinions. Some folks swear by Sikkens and others say it is worthless. Same with other products.

I guess at this point id like to find somthing that matches the front of my house which is going to be tough because i have no idea what product the previous home owner used there.


The other thing id like is to be be able just clean it and slap on antoher coat when it comes time and have it look refreshed.

Ive also noticed that some stains that are recommended are not recommended for siding.....and vise versa. It would be nice to find a product that would do both and is somewhat durable.

Also...i dont want it to peel. That is what i ran into with Behr. Granted....from what i have read, behr is probably the worst for this type of behavior. The guy at the paint store i was at claimed sikkens was some of the best. The cetrol srd product looks good. It is a single coat product. I just cant find the color match or even a close. one. Im thinking of stopping off at a local lumber yard here. They have Penofin prodcuts and i have read good things about them.
 
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Old 09-01-10, 10:36 AM
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I'm not aware of any exterior wood stains that aren't rated for siding. Deck stains can be used on siding but siding stains shouldn't be used on decks.
 
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Old 09-10-10, 05:48 AM
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well i thought i had penofin lined up. A local company here let me take there sample boards home to compare. I found one ultra preimum color (the red can stuff) that was the exact color i needed.

THey were not open at all over the holiday weekend and are only open till 5pm daily. I finally made it back there to buy the stain and they have more samle boards out. These are totally different. Both board samples were from penofin. The one sample board pack i took home...the color i wanted was dead on and matched the house entirely. The replacement swatch boards that they put out showed the color i wanted entirely differnet. IT was actually bright yellow.....COMPLETELY different.

the guy at the store let me take an entire gallon just to test with and it is indeed bright yellow. The penofin stain samples were completely wrong.

I guess it is back to the drawing board. Glad i didnt just buy the stuff. It is like $50 per gallon.
 
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Old 09-10-10, 06:40 AM
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Samples can vary by the type of wood they are applied to. Also it's possible that the samples were old and aged where the yellow had faded out.
 
  #23  
Old 09-10-10, 07:59 AM
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nope.....

not in this case. The swatches from penofin were side by side...same type of wood...same thickness....same grain...

completely different. ONe was brown like tree bark .....one was yellow like mustard.

even the guy at the store was confused. Totally different ends of the spectrum...
 
  #24  
Old 09-10-10, 04:28 PM
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got my cabots samples in the mail finally. None of them are close.

I even called the old home owner and he couldnt remember what he used.

Looks like im screwed.
 
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Old 09-11-10, 05:06 AM
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You could buy a quart of the Behr and apply it to a scrap piece of wood and then have them match their stain to the stain on the scrap wood.
 
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Old 09-12-10, 12:21 PM
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wish i could.

behr isnt the color i want in the end. IT is whatever is on the front side of my house. I cant seem to figure out what kind of stain it is. I was able to reach the old home owner finally and he said he has no idea. He got it at Menards but that is all he remembers. He was pretty sure that when he went to buy more they didnt make it any more.

All stains that i have tried........appear yellow or orange. Im looking for a light brown.

I know when i tried the penofins on a scrap piece it was a heavy oil and that soaked in an even on the scrap now appears horrible looking. The sikkens was too yellow as well. The cabots was all over the place with the color and appears to be latex which im not sure is good or bad. The acyrlic of the behr on the siding lasted 3 - 4 years. I can almost imagine that will be about the best i will get out of any product. I found some 100% acyrlic Ultra brand from pittsburg paints but that is extremely orange.

Not sure what to do yet.


One thing i can tell you.....


Every time it rains the DECK looks awesome. It gets really good color and looks very good. I think i might want to leave that somewhat clear. I found some clears in the ultra brand.....but they say they are a toner (you can get different shades but they are mostly opaque) and the can says it is a sealer. Not sure if a sealer is a good idea. Not sure what it means actually. I have heard horror stories of people who put Thompsons Sealer on decks and then have a nightmare.....

I would like it to withstand minnesota winters what what ever i use.

At this point ive been staring at a half finished project for over a month and not sure what to do.

The front side of the house has the right color but i cant just start removing siding to bring it to some place to color match.

Funny thing is the Penofin samples that the guy gave me to bring home had one that was dead on. I wish i would have just kept his sample pack so i could color match off of that but i had to give it back to him.

Is the color matching done by computer? If so .....woudl i close up digital photo work to get the right color. I suppose that sounds dumb but figure why not ask....
 
  #27  
Old 09-12-10, 01:19 PM
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Many paint stores use a computer gizmo to match the sample you bring in and get the formula to make it out of whatever base is chosen. The better stores will tweak the formula a little as the computer rarely gets the color dead on. I'm sure they could use a pic but I don't know how accurate that would be.

Flood's CWF will give you close to the color of your deck when wet. I love the look of CWF but it isn't one of the longer lasting coatings. I have it on both my front and back porch siding and steps. The siding is well protected from the weather so it holds up well [about 5-7 yrs] The steps and railing is another story - it needs to be redone every 1-2 yrs.

Thompson's Waterseal is a short lived coating. Often it only lasts 6 months to a year. It doesn't change the look of the wood much other than keeping it from graying until the coating wears off. All deck stains are sealers, unlike interior wood stains that need a sealer [varnish or poly] applied over them.
 
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Old 09-12-10, 02:49 PM
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thanks.

I just came back from a sherwin wiliams store. They had their house brand only. Coudlnt find any color samples or swatches that i coudl take home but then again...it looked like every other brand i have looked at as far as colors go.

Im curious about the Floods....
Any idea where to get it? I dont mind redoing the deck every 1 to 2 years if you dont have to strip and sand the entire thing. I woudl like to just clean it with a proper cleaner and hit it with the fresh coat and have it look great again.

How are latex stains? This cabots color i have might be close enough....and im thinking about ordering 1 more color sample from them online to see if i can find a closer match. I think it is a latex. Smells like a latex paint anyway...
 
  #29  
Old 09-13-10, 05:38 AM
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Most paint stores sell CWF including SWP. You can also buy it at Lowes and probably most any big box store. Like a lot of the waterborne deck coatings it has a specific recoat window or you must wait until it's well weathered before recoating. Make sure you get the UV resistant CWF.

Latex stains [not the same as waterborne] generally keep their color better than oil base formulas. Most only come in solid stain [like paint but thinner] They can be recoated at any time.

SWP should have a deck stain brochure with their standard colors pictured but what you'll probably need is to have a custom mix to get the color you desire.
 
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Old 09-13-10, 06:19 AM
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took a few more pics

Here is the color im after on the siding:







Not sure why it is so hard to find this color. I cant tell if it is a oil, latex or acyrlic.



Here are some of the pics of the wet deck.

The last one it is a bit overcast so it looks dull.








 
  #31  
Old 09-13-10, 09:48 AM
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The siding stain is oil base or waterborne, exterior latex stains are almost always solid color. Waterborne coatings aren't the same as latex. A waterborne stain cleans up with soap and water but has a lot of the same properties as a similar oil base coating.

CWF should give the same approximate coloring as your deck is when wet. Basically it's a clear coating [looks a little muddy in the bucket but dries fairly clear] that deepens the colors naturally in the wood.
 
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Old 09-13-10, 10:45 AM
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So are you saying that i should stay away from the cabots stuff for my siding? the color sample i got was a semi transparent and smells like latex
 
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Old 09-13-10, 02:30 PM
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When did I say not use Cabot stain?

I haven't used Cabot stains in quite awhile. I've never used a latex semi-transparent stain but that's not to say there isn't one. I'd suspect that it would be a waterborne stain.
 
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Old 09-13-10, 02:57 PM
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fair enough.

Thanks for all the help and advice. Ive got one more sample comming to be sure...before i pull the trigger on the product.

Ill take some after shots if i ever get there
 
  #35  
Old 09-18-10, 08:16 PM
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I don't have any suggestions for a product, but i will tell you this -- feel good about your siding. it looks to be in fantastic condition. i have been dealing with painted cedar sided homes in the chicago area and i can tell you there is nothing worse than trying to remove 12 layers of checked, alligatored, cracked old latex paint covering cracked/warped/cupped/rotting cedar boards. the only solution i've found is to grind all the paint (and much of the wood) off with a porter cable paint grinder. it is the worst job imagineable. the result is butchered wood siding that will at least accept a new base coat of alkyd primer.
 
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Old 10-08-10, 10:23 AM
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well i just finished staining yesterday after take 2 days off work to do so. I tested about 7 differerent brands and had about 7 color samples. I went with cabots new redwood because it matched the front side of my house nicely from what i could tell wiht the samples.

I did the face of my garage and my deck. It came out almost a bright orange. Nothing like the samples i tried. All in all ... a huge waste of time and effort. I can only hope it holds up to protect the wood. The behr product sure did look 10X better than this stuff. I just hope it will hold up better so im not restaining every 6 months.

If i had to do it all over again id just redo it with the behr product and get decent looking results. I got 5 years out of my verticals and 1 to 2 years out of the horizontals...and from what i have read and researched....that isnt bad.

THanks for the help / suggestions everyone.
 
 

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