What goes between studs and siding?

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Old 05-03-13, 07:51 PM
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What goes between studs and siding?

I have an old house that has/had brick veneer up to the windows and then siding from there up. The brick started falling away at the corner of the house and I needed to start replacing windows, so I decided to pull it off, replace that window and re-side that area. After pulling the brick off and starting to pull the siding off around the window I discovered the old wooden siding under the stuff on top. So, now I'm stuck pulling all of that off(have already started)...

The next layer is blackboard, it is attached to the studs. My question is...after taking all that siding and brick off do I take the blackboard off too and start again(would rather not). And if I leave the blackboard do I put the new siding on top of that or is there another layer I need to put on?
 
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Old 05-03-13, 08:26 PM
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It's called Cellotex and it's about worthless for anything.
Remove it and used CDX plywood or OSB.
Then house wrap, better known as Tyvex, then new siding.
 
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Old 05-04-13, 12:42 AM
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Is it possible to just put tar paper over the black board and put the siding on over that? (we already have tons of tar paper) I looked at the install instructions for Hardie Plank-fibered cement board- and it shows double wall construction has osb sheathing on studs then vapor barrier then siding. The single wall install instructions show vapor barrier on the studs, then siding.

If I could get a few different scenarios(options) that would be great! Thanks!
 
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Old 05-04-13, 01:05 AM
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There are tens of thousands of houses that were built with the gypsum sheathing and many of them are still standing and occupied. While they have developed better sheathing materials over the years there is nothing inherently wrong with the gypsum sheathing as long as the construction techniques needed are followed. Specifically, the walls must have bracing to prevent sideways movement since the gypsum panels have no lateral strength.

Yeah, covering the existing gypsum board with the tar paper is an acceptable method. Remember that you MUST nail the siding into the studs and not just the gypsum sheathing. The gypsum has no power to hold the nails.
 
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Old 05-04-13, 04:46 AM
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You use the term vapor barrier and in the location you mention there should not be a vapor barrier, very bad, Under the siding there should be a house wrap which is designed to specifically not be a vapor barrier.

I know you are in a hurry to get this done, but there are some details that can greatly improve your project and while you are down to the studs it would be a shame to not do it right.

You do get winter out there, so what is in those walls for insulation. If you pull the black board you wouold be able to address any improvements to insulation needed.

Over time, are you intending to replace all of the windows and siding. What you do here should match.

Air sealing a home is different from installing a vapor barrier. I would be concerned that leaving the black board and adding tar paper over it will leave a very leaky home and negate the improvements you are hoping for.

There are many references, are you interested?

Bud
 
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Old 05-04-13, 05:49 AM
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I'm with Bud on this one, no tar paper.
 
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Old 05-04-13, 06:25 AM
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To reiterate, too, I would like to see what type, or if any insulation is in the walls, and upgrade at the same time. Makes no sense to go that far and have an ill insulated house. I found quite often, turn of the century and later housing used tar board as an "insulator", and the walls were void. Just something to check into.
 
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Old 05-04-13, 12:38 PM
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My previous home was built in 1953. It had 2x4 studs and the gypsum sheathing. Over the gypsum it had 1x6 vertical cedar siding. I don't remember if it had tar paper between the gypsum and the cedar. A few stud bays had some sort of insulation, I think it was some shredded wood waste, but for the most part the walls were uninsulated. I did blow cellulose into the walls from the outside.

Many years later I installed a patio door in the bedroom and removed the large window. The cellulose I had blown still fully filled the stud bays and was fairly densely packed. There was absolutely no sign of moisture or rot.

I had previously replaced the original window in the bathroom, in the shower/tub area, and there WAS signs of rot along with a huge colony of Carpenter ants in this location. Fixing the rot and killing the ants I moved on. I have no doubt that the source of the moisture in this location was a result of the shower and the poor Melamine paneling that allowed the water to penetrate the regular drywall.

Then I installed a patio door in the kitchen, or I should say I attempted to install it. I had a crew installing vinyl siding at the time and paid them an addition $100 to install the door. The foreman told me it was the lousiest and most difficult door he had ever installed. It had been the top-of-the-line door sold by the local predecessor of the red and blue homecenter and that experience taught me to never use a homecenter brand but to stick with the national name brands. I mention all of this just to state that there were no moisture or rot problems in this wall just like no problems in the bedroom walls that I opened.

So, I have no doubts that there ARE better ways to construct walls than were used fifty years ago, I'm just saying that those earlier methods are not automatically bad today.
 
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Old 05-04-13, 01:53 PM
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Thank you everyone for the info so far. I was up half the night trying to figure some of this out. I'm a little confused with the terms vapor barrier and house wrap now after your comments. I thought they were the same. Is tar paper a vapor barrier? I went back & looked again at the install for the Hardieplank & it says "water resistive barrier" not vapor barrier--there is a difference?

Bud: I am definitely interested in references! Thanks

This house is an old rental of my parents' and I'm just slowly trying to upgrade some things...of course b/c it's a rental they want to keep costs as low as possible, using materials we already have if possible(tar paper). Luckily I'm stocked up on insulation from the left overs when we did the floor.

This house was actually moved to this location in the late 70's. I have no idea how old it actually is but it has LOTS of problems. Where the brick veneer started falling away was about 15' from the front door. So I decided to pull that brick off first & am replacing the one window and the siding up to the door. Later in the summer I'll probably tackle the rest of the front siding and windows. Baby steps.

One other question-if I go all the way down to the studs to deal with possible insulation issues, I am going to order a "new construction" window? I'm replacing an old crappy single pane aluminum window. And is this going to screw up the drywall inside the room?(have all the trim off and ready to take window out)

Thanks for your time!
 
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Old 05-04-13, 02:17 PM
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These two will get you started. The building science link will connect to an almost endless list of other links noted at the side and bottom of each site you visit.

Check the current rough opening of your window against the standard sizes available or the availability of a custom ordered window before you remove the old. That's just in case you have to wait 2 to 5 weeks for it to come in. If the replacement is close, the trim should cover the install as before, give or take a bit.

Although many older homes avoided moisture problems by simply allowing the structure to dry because they were leaky, they did so at the expense of very low cost fuel. Between the cost of fuel or the concerns about using too much, we now need to look for better ways to seal up those old homes. Cutting those heating bills in half would certainly help out on the rent.

Here is a link on air sealing as well.
Bud

http://www.efficiencyvermont.com/ste...ide_062507.pdf

BSD-012: Moisture Control for New Residential Buildings — Building Science Information

Vapor Barriers or Vapor Diffusion Retarders | Department of Energy
 
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Old 05-04-13, 03:05 PM
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Thank you Bud--I have a lot of reading ahead of me. How do I measure the rough opening of the window without taking the old window out first?
 
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Old 05-04-13, 05:13 PM
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Vapor barrier prevents moisture from traveling through the vapor barrier material. Few products qualify so the term vapor retarder is more accurate. House wrap does NOT retard vapor (moisture) travel to any significant extent as its purpose is to provide greater resistance to air exchange by air "sealing" the building.

Older homes, older than fifty years or so often did not use pre-assembled window units but had the windows assembled and installed on site. If your house is more than fifty years old the chance of finding a "stock" window that will be an exact replacement, size wise, is remote. Replacement windows, usually custom made, slip into the existing window jambs and are then trimmed out for looks. If you have the trim pieces off on the inside you can usually make a pretty good guess as to the original rough opening. The drywall will end either on, or slightly closer to the window from the rough framing.

This picture shows foam being injected in the space between the window unit and the rough framing to give you an idea of how a window is set. Shims are used between the window unit and the framing to center and secure.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12223[/ATTACH]
(Photo courtesy of building.dow.com)
 
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