Making trusses for shed roof.

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Old 06-06-13, 07:19 AM
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Making trusses for shed roof.

So, in the middle of building my shed for my riding lawn mower, etc., and I'm at the part that freaks me out the most... The roof. In my opinion, one of the most important parts of any structure as it's the lid of the bloody thing.

Framing has been done in standard 2X4 construction. Shed is 10'X10'.

Wondering if anyone has any tips that would be helpful in making the trusses and fastening them to the shed framing. I've seen internet resources that tell you just to screw the trusses to the top plate. Others have suggested using the metal fasteners like the Simpsons ones.

Any thoughts?
 
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Old 06-06-13, 12:28 PM
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My thoughts are that trusses are engineered and certified. As such they technically cannot be made outside of a truss factory. I would use rafters and yes, I would use the Simpson plates for fastening the "tails" to the walls.
 
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Old 06-06-13, 12:46 PM
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Or use a ledger on the wall of the garage and joist hangers for the rafters to sit in against the wall, bird mouths at the tail end and hurricane ties to hold them to the top plate, as well as cross nailing.
 
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Old 06-06-13, 02:06 PM
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What is the shape of your roof, standard triangle, gambrel, vaulted? For a 10' x 10' trusses are not necessary unless you are doing something special. I have built a gusseted frame and although not technically a truss it served the purpose of creating a gambrel roof continuous to the 4' wall framing and deck boards (8' x 8'). But it was much more time consuming than just regular framing.

The other approach is to support a substantial ridge beam and nail your rafters to each side with a tie across the top, it almost eliminates the ceiling joists if the ridge is strong enough.

Also, nails and not screws. Good galvanized nails will last much longer than screws and if you use any pressure treated lumber, be sure all fasteners are appropriate for PT.

Bud
 
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Old 06-06-13, 03:43 PM
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I was under the impression it was a "shed" roof, thus the suggestion on the joist hangers.
 
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Old 06-07-13, 06:12 AM
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Hey guys, thanks for the replies. Some carpentry terminology in there that I don't understand, but I'll spend some time today trying to decipher it. Once I get to the painting stage, then I'll feel like a pro....

Hoping to go buy the lumber, and fasteners of whatever type I go with for this today and maybe get to it tomorrow.

It's a shed for sure. Going to house my riding mower, push mower, weed eater, rakes, shovels, etc. Not going to be occupied by any living thing.

It's 10' X 10', raised off the ground by patio stones under deck blocks. I want a simple triangle roof. Hoping to get a 10-12" overhang on the sides and whatever I can on the front and back.

This is my first adventure in building a structure like this. I've built myself two decks around our house. Absolutely nothing fancy as I have a really hard time thinking in three dimensions. Thus, why I paint.

Maybe I'll take a pic of what I've got done so far and hope you guys have a better picture of what's being built. In the end, it's basically going to look like a wee barn of sorts.
 
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Old 06-07-13, 06:25 AM
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Old 06-07-13, 06:36 AM
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Wow, thanks Joe! I'll fiddle with this for a while. It's asking questions I don't quite understand and I'm likely entering incorrect data in the fields.

For some reason it thinks I need 18 rafters over a 10' length which seems a bit much.

Just had an idea. I'll tell you what data I'm entering, what I can't because I don't know what it is.

Wall length 10'
Wall width 10'
Roof angle 22 degrees
overhang (level) I assume that means on the sides so I said 1'
overhang (gable) I assume that means front and back so I said 1'
birdsmouth seat I didn't enter anything. I have no clue what this means. Ok, I have googled this and now know what a birdsmouth seat is, but I have no idea what would be a good measurement to make this. This is getting complicated.
End of rafter setin Again, no clue what this means.
rafter thickness I'm assuming I'm using 2X4 so I said 3 1/2" Edit, I think I'm getting this. I changed this to 1 1/2"
rafter depth No clue Edit, changed this to 3 1/2"
ridge thickness 2X4 so 3 1/2"? Edit, changed to 1 1/2"
ridge depth It appears to have figured out 8" but I have no clue how or what this means. Edit, changed this to 3 1/2"
Rafter spacing It's entered 16". Sounds reasonable. Everything else is 16" OC.
I selected equal spacing.
 

Last edited by wildbill7145; 06-07-13 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 06-07-13, 07:43 AM
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Ok, so I think I'm starting to understand this. Possibly. Now that i know what a rafter is! I thought they were the horizontal parts you made ceilings from, not the angled roof part! Like in the saying "Hanging from the rafters"? So does this mean I don't need the horizontal boards (i.e. the bottom and thus third side of the triangle)?

Anyhoo, I also now understand that when it says I need 18 rafters, it means 9 sections of roof framing not 18. I hope.

Ok, so I think I'm understanding even more of what you guys are talking about. From what Bud said, if I use a "substantial" ridge beam and put in horizontal boards to tie each side of the roof together, that might eliminate the need for ceiling joists. I assume 2X4 wouldn't be considered substantial enough? Makes sense as the angled cut on the upper end of the rafter would leave more than a 3 1/2" face to nail to? So maybe my 12" ridge beam should be 2X6?
 

Last edited by wildbill7145; 06-07-13 at 08:25 AM. Reason: possible enlightenment
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Old 06-07-13, 09:59 AM
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Let's see if this link is close to what you are talking about?
Google Image Result for http://www.shedking.net/image-files/ridge-beam.jpg

Wow, that is a long link.
Bud
OK, looks better when posted.
If that is it, then on a 10 x 10 I would still use a substantial ridge beam, plus each end needs very good support as the beam ends will carry the entire roof load.
 

Last edited by Bud9051; 06-07-13 at 10:01 AM. Reason: comment
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Old 06-07-13, 10:42 AM
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That's the one Bud. Well, I just got back from the lumber store. One 12' 2X6, 18 8' 2X4 and a bunch of Simpsons strong ties to attach the rafters to the top plates.

Once you know the terminology of all this stuff it does get a bit easier to understand. I also find it funny that all these calculator websites measure stuff to within 1/32" when my tape only goes down to 1/16" and I'll be happy if I get it to within 1/8"!
 
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Old 06-07-13, 05:46 PM
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I don't need the horizontal boards
Don't want to bust your bubble, but what will keep the walls from pushing outward from the weight of the rafters?? You need ceiling joists. OH, BTW, this isn't a "shed" roof, but a gable roof. A shed roof is connected to the side or roof of an adjacent building.
 
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Old 06-08-13, 05:02 AM
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Correct you are once again Chandler. I'll be installing Collar ties from the looks of things. Ceiling joists will make for storage space as well I guess.

I never knew that a shed roof had a specific meaning either.

For others reading this, that website Joecaption1 linked was incredible. I would have been standing out in my backyard with my saw set up, staring at a pile of wood for hours not knowing what to do with it. It gave me all the cuts and measurements I needed perfectly.

Thanks again guys.
 
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Old 06-08-13, 05:09 AM
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If the ridge beam is substantial and fully supported on each end, then the walls will not push out. Collar ties about half way up will add some support, and increase the head room.

If that 12' 2x6 is your ridge beam, that is not what I would call substantial. And on each end, if there is a window or door under that header there needs to be a good header.

Bud
 
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Old 06-08-13, 05:16 AM
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Hmm, I thought the 2X6 was going to be enough considering that some of the online plans I was looking at didn't even suggest one at all.

There's going to be one door. A big one on the one end to get the riding mower through. For the header I used 2 2X8's nailed together.

I will take a look at things however, and see if there's something I can do to add more support under the ends however. Thanks for the advice Bud.

As an aside, a civil engineer friend of mine last night mentioned that he thought it would be prudent to install the plywood on the exterior walls before doing the roof decking to add strength prior to adding the weight of the sheething on the roof. Any thoughts on this?
 

Last edited by wildbill7145; 06-08-13 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 06-08-13, 06:29 AM
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A 10' 2x6 will bend slightly under your weight or the weight of a bunch of snow and ice. But the real concern is time. I've seen sheds look like our over weight America, bulging at the middle, after just a few years. If a little less ceiling height is ok, then move the collar ties down. Are you using a 6', 7', or 8' ceiling?

Now, don't use this as an excuse to not beef up the ridge beam, but if the results a few years from now are not good, attach a come-along and pull the walls into place and add a few 10' ceiling joists.

I recently completed a 10' x 16' shed. With an 8' ceiling I used 2x6's all the way around, ceiling joists, rafters, and ridge beam. I also added a small door at the top to utilize that space for storage. but I have a 9 on 12 pitch.

Bud
 
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Old 06-08-13, 06:40 AM
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8' ceiling. Could add two sets of collar ties if that would make things stronger?

Nope, won't make any excuses on this one Bud. Despite my lack of knowledge about this stuff, I'm trying really hard to do it right. The only advice I can get is what I can glean from the net which is always tough. My wife wants to see all the bills from this thing and compare them to an ad from a local shed builder to see where mine came in. I'm already using stronger lumber than his was for the flooring framing. I'm positive he has more skills and knowledge than I do of course.

I'll definitely do what I can about the ridge beam and will take a picture later today. I'm sure there's several things you guys could suggest without making me disassemble this whole bloody thing.
 
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Old 06-08-13, 07:02 AM
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Carpentry is a great DIY experience and DIY (IMO) is a must for everyone. As everything you own gets older, being able to fix things saves time and money, plus the benefits of personal satisfaction. In addition to trying to contribute here, where I have some experience, I am a frequent reader. As you spend time here you will get to know many of the super qualified professionals. I pale in comparison to this crowd.

Even if your shed costs more than a ready build one, you will have moved up the ladder a notch.

Note, if you keep the inside height an inch or so above 8' then you can stand up full sheets of 4 x 8 materials.

Bud
 
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Old 06-08-13, 07:18 AM
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Yep, I love carpentry. I just have no formal training and very little informal. Being a painter, I'm around it all the time so I watch and learn as much as possible. Bud, you've already given me loads of help with this which is greatly appreciated. Yep, there are lots of great pros on doityourself.com. I tend to hang with MarkSr in the painting forum and add input where I can, but whenever I try to do something outside that realm I always start on this site. I've been surfing this site for quite a while now.

Just hoping this particular project doesn't become a nightmare or an "just add a little pine here and there" type thing. Structure is not my forte.
 
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Old 06-08-13, 10:39 AM
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Yep, I love carpentry. I just have no formal training and very little informal.
Me too! Back in 89 I decided I wanted a 26x40 garage. Had a church group do the slab and a row of block, rest was up to me. Unfortunately, the 'brains' of my crew flaked out on me, "you have to have the windows right under the top plate."

What, I don't want my windows 8' up in the air? Turned out years later he was diagnosed to have MS and after going to a real doctor he didn't have MS at all but had had a stroke.

Anyway, now what do I do? I bought a set of Time Life books and built it from reading that. Turned out quite good, at least it's still standing.

Found out later I did two things wrong but not a disaster:

1) when I made the ladder over the drop truss I didn't line up the 'steps' with the seam in the plywood.

2) the windows were installed on top of the T1-11 siding rather than the siding butting up to the window.


Sure was fun though.
 
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Old 06-08-13, 04:10 PM
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As you spend time here you will get to know many of the super qualified professionals. I pale in comparison to this crowd.
Absolutely true in my case as well. When it comes to carpentry Chandler and X-sleeper are the real professionals., Electricity it is Nashkat1, Alarms systems has Mr RonFL, GEGuy and a couple of others. JerseyMatt in computers is tops, Mike Lawrosa in plumbing, NJTrooper and Grady in heating, Several in air conditioning and many more I can't even think of at this time.

I try to add my poor experience where I can.
 
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Old 06-08-13, 06:36 PM
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Thank you Furd for the compliment. It'll, now, take me 3 more years to live up to it . Oh,wildbill, don't put your commas in the wrong place, or use words that aren't words. Furd is like a chicken to a cicada !! Everyone has their forte. I was fortunate to have patient teachers (not school) in the trade. That is after I obtained a degree, worked for the "man" for umpteen years, while working my passion on the side. Then it hit me......you can do this stuff for a living . Never turned back. Books, codes, trade magazines....makes for much better reading than My Friend Flicka.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 05:23 AM
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Chandler, where did I put commas in the wrong spot? I do tend to over comma. Forte is a word isn't it? I'm sure it is.

Not having the training or practice for this stuff just showed through. Rafters went up great. I kept thinking "this is going way to easily! Something must be wrong!"

Then I realized that while studding the structure I measured in one direction going one length of wall and in the other direction on the opposite wall. They're all 16" on center, but don't line up under the rafters to help support the load. I guess I can just add more studs where necessary. Poop.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 05:32 AM
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Do you have a double plate at the top of your stud wall? Bottom plate is under the studs, the top plate is the 2x4 that runs across the top of the stud wall.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 05:45 AM
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Yep, double plate at the top. Overlapped the adjoining walls to tie them together.

I really have to bring the camera out there to take a picture of this thing before I consider it done! It just makes me nervous doing so as you guys are going to find all sorts of crap wrong with it.

Once I plywood the walls, roof the roof and paint all my mistakes will get hidden (just kidding, I'll likely make mistakes in the roofing).
 
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Old 06-09-13, 05:53 AM
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One good thing about being a painter - we know how to make most anything look good

The carpenters might correct me but I don't think it's a big deal not having the rafters directly under the studs since you have a double plate. I have walls in my barn that are built that way and have held up fine for the last 20+ yrs.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 05:58 AM
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Painters work miracles, believe me. While it is uniform to have the joisting over the studs, and more support is afforded in that manner, sometimes measurements don't cooperate. For instance....walls are 16" oc and joisting is 24" oc (not often)....no match. The double plate tends to spread the weight across to the vertical members, which are closer together.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 06:06 AM
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Hey, does that mean I don't have to add any more studs? Somehow, the website I used which lined up and measured everything perfectly (or so I thought) resulted in me having the rafters at 15"OC (I likely did something wrong, but can't figure out where). I planned on doing them at 16" rather than 24" just for the sake of doing so. Can't remember where, but I remember reading that someone's roof showed sagging between rafters after a number of years.

Ok, going to take a pic of this thing now and I'll put it up on here. If you guys laugh, my one remaining feeling is going to get hurt.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 06:18 AM
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No one is going to laugh - if they do, we'll ship them off to the Siberia forum

Most of us only have one or two trades that we are competent in but as diyers we do the best we can in other areas. We've all made our share of mistakes! Even if your shed doesn't come out perfect, as long as it works as intended and the permit office doesn't make you tear it down mission accomplished! You've gained experience which will help you later on and bragging rites to boot
 
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Old 06-09-13, 06:27 AM
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Well, lucky for me I didn't get a permit because around here if it's under 107' square you don't need one! Ok, here's the pic. Not all of the rafters are installed, and I haven't yet beefed up support for the ridge beam as suggested by Bud above. Did all of this by myself without any help whatsoever.



Thought I would add this one for fun. My Blue Jay peanut feeder from last year. After many attempts at foiling the squirrels, I eventually conceded defeat. I now admit I feed squirrels and Blue Jays without being ashamed anymore.

 
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Old 06-09-13, 07:06 AM
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No one is laughing. Looks pretty good. If I can interject a few pointers. Your header over your door is not supported. You should have had a king stud, then a jack stud for the header to sit on. Remember "vertical". I would have extended my (bottom) top wall plate to match your ridge so you can have something for the false rafter to sit on once it is doubled. I would like to have seen pressure treated bottom plate. None of this will require you to tear it down. Just points to ponder for the next project. The others may find more, but once your siding is up and roof decking is on, you're good.

I see no ridge rafter in the blue jay house at all, so it may have to come down JK
 
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Old 06-09-13, 07:24 AM
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Yep, thanks for the pointers Chandler. Yep, I totally blew the supporting for the header and plan on addressing that somehow. I'll re-measure the width of my riding mower. I made the door opening 6' wide for two 3' swinging doors. Kind of a barn type thing. Should be able to add a king and jack. I hope.

EDIT: Chandler, I sistered two 2X4 studs together and attached two sistered 2X8 for the header. If I put a stick of 2X4 under the header on each side, is that a jack stud? I think the two full length sistered studs make the king stud? I hope?

Yep, didn't even think of extending the bottom (top) wall plate when that was happening. Not sure if there's anything I can do about that now.

I knew I should have done the PT for the bottom plate. I asked around here and everyone said don't bother. I should have gone with my instinct and just did it. The flooring is PT 5/8" tongue and groove, which the guys at the lumber yard mangled the T&G on. Thanks guys. Got them mashed together as close as I could.

Any thoughts on whether or not I need to block the studs about halfway up? Contractor friend of mine said with 8' walls it wasn't necessary.

Any thoughts on how to beef up the ridge beam at this point?
 
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Old 06-09-13, 08:00 AM
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For no more span than you have, the ridge is fine. Yes, putting two jacks under the header is a good idea. If you do it carefully, cut back on your top plates in a staggered fashion with your cuts on top of adjoining studs and insert longer plate pieces to allow overhang to the front and back. Better to do it now than to not have that rafter support.

Do NOT laugh at my paint drawing

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Old 06-09-13, 08:09 AM
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Ah, ok. Now I see what you mean. Before you added the picture, I had no clue what you were describing. Great idea. I'll see if this is possible as I overlapped the top top plate to tie into the bottom top plate of the adjoining wall. This was suggested on one of those stupid free plan sites to tie the walls together.

I'll probably have to remove, or unfasten the rafters on the back of the shed to do this as I added them at the end of the day yesterday.

Thanks again.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 08:23 AM
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Crap, looks like this could involve a LOT of dismantling. I will do it if you think it's absolutely necessary though. One site I looked at suggested using short horizontal blocks in between the rafter that's flush with the outside wall and the 'false rafter' to support it. Not sure if that would add much/if any vertical support, but not sure if it's necessary. I hope that makes sense.

I'll work away at other stuff until you respond.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 08:29 AM
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You can install lookouts all along the run of the false rafter. It just isn't as solid on the lower side without the good support. If you want to do this, go up to your top plate. Cut through the top board at the third stud in. Then come back to the second stud in and cut through both top plates. Your cuts should be in the middle of the stud. Loosen the rafter tails from the plates, cut through your overlap on the end where it ties into the cross piece and remove the plate. Install a new bottom plate the length you want, then the top plate, which will be longer. Reset your rafter tails.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 08:35 AM
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Hmm, ok sounds good. I might as well just do this at this point rather than wishing I had later.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 08:37 AM
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Do it right now for a penny.....do it later for a dollar. Or as the old Shell Answer Man said..."Pay me now, or pay me later"! Let us know how it goes.
 
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Old 06-09-13, 07:10 PM
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Well, that was a challenge. Putting that thing together solidly was good, dismantling was not. I'm glad I did it and I think it was necessary in the end.

When you take things apart though, they come out of square. That's not fun to ammend. However, one foot was added to each end of the upper plates at the end of the day on all the corners.

Thanks again Chandler. I'll likely hit this thing again for more progress next weekend if not earlier if I get a rain day. Speaking of which, if I plan on plywooding this how long can that sit if it rains without being finished with paint? Personally, I wouldn't like it to sit with water anywhere near it at all, but if it has to endure water how much can it take?

I'm doing this in bits and pieces obviously. It's a grind, but that's life.
 
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Old 06-10-13, 04:40 AM
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If you used Advantech for subflooring, no worry. It has a wax like impregnation that sheds water. OSB, I'd cover it. One large tarp stretched over the roof will help keep it dry.
 
 

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