Stone/Brick on cement Board

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Old 09-20-13, 10:54 AM
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Stone/Brick on cement Board

first-timer in masonry work. i done my own roof and it came out great so next is i want to do a half wall of stone or brick on my exterior and top half to just be siding.

i want to do the stone/brick on cement board - exterior like hardie boards that will last throughout weather etc.

will portland cement adhere right with stone/brick on a cement board?
 
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Old 09-21-13, 01:57 PM
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does anyone know? i been researching that there is a bonding agent you can put on cement boards then special cement that will adhere to stone or brick but would love to hear from someone who has done this?
 
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Old 09-22-13, 04:37 AM
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I'm not a mason but most around here use Type S for stone work but I've never heard of anyone using cement board behind brick/stone on the exterior. Have you settled on a product yet? Brick needs a footer and then uses brick ties to secure it to the wall every so often. I assume with stone you mean a stone veneer ??
 
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Old 09-22-13, 07:10 AM
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You will need to look at the wall and determine if you can beef up the wall sufficiently without effecting the windows and or doors due to the extra thickness.

For Stone veneer (man made or natural) I would make sure my sheathing is at least 1/2" OSB and 1/2" Durock Hung 90 degrees to the ply, offset to the seams and screwed into the studs through the osb. Rather than trying to mix your own mortar, use a Large Format Tile Thinset Mortar such as LFT or Ultra Light both by Mapei. They have a high initial grab which you will need for your stone. They can be purchased at tile stores (not box stores). Type S or N will rely on the row beneath it to support the row above while they set up. It will slow you down. Not to say you won't experience any sag with the Large Format Mortars, it depends on the stone and how flat the back is and if you need to back butter to achieve proper coverage.
 
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Old 09-23-13, 09:00 PM
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@czizzi, i wanted to stay away from plywood which i assume OSB is as it can rot with weather/rain etc but yes i can beef up an inch of what you are recommending.

1) is OSB for added support and strength?

2) i'm not sure what you mean by 90 degrees to ply and offset seams and screwed into studs through osb? trying to visualize but perhaps you mean just attach the osb to studs and durock to studs through osb?

3) as for the large format mortars, i should be using that throughout the stone?

4) i assume more flat the back of a stone is, the less mortar?

5) about support of rows to the above, does that really matter if its dry stack?

6) also, its probably best to use the rough side of the durock when setting up mortar and stone?

7) logically, i should put felt paper first before osb and not in between osb and durock?


@marksr, i will look into those ties and that might be something i need



i appreciate the feedback guys
 

Last edited by qbhome; 09-23-13 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 09-24-13, 07:12 AM
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@czizzi, i wanted to stay away from plywood which i assume OSB is as it can rot with weather/rain etc but yes i can beef up an inch of what you are recommending.
Any rated sheathing will be fine.

1) is OSB for added support and strength?
Both, gives a solid base for lateral support and it guarantees that you will get a secure hold no matter where you nail or screw off the cement board.

2) i'm not sure what you mean by 90 degrees to ply and offset seams and screwed into studs through osb? trying to visualize but perhaps you mean just attach the osb to studs and durock to studs through osb?
If ply/osb is hung vertically, hang durock horizontally and don't have any seams line up with the ones underneath.

3) as for the large format mortars, i should be using that throughout the stone?

4) i assume more flat the back of a stone is, the less mortar?
You ideally want 90% coverage of mortar on the back of the stone/tile.

5) about support of rows to the above, does that really matter if its dry stack?
Lets just say, you will know if additional support is needed as you build the wall.

also, its probably best to use the rough side of the durock when setting up mortar and stone?
Printed side of the Durock goes out.

7) logically, i should put felt paper first before osb and not in between osb and durock?
Wrong, Felt on top of OSB installed horizontally starting from the bottom and overlap each successive row by 3". Any Moisture that gets past the stone and durock will sheet down the felt and protect the OSB from water damage.
 
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Old 09-24-13, 12:24 PM
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Thanks czizzi for clearing that up. The terminology for OSB is interchangable with sheathing and plywood.

I'm going shopping on stone today.
 
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Old 09-25-13, 07:57 PM
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@czizzi why would the large format tile slow one down than regular mortar.

have you tried large format tile on cultured stone for exterior?

the large tile format thinset covers less sq ft and a bit expensive then regular mortar. i'm worried that the cultured rough backing won't adhere as well.
 
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Old 09-26-13, 05:45 AM
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The opposite, regular thinset mortar needs time to set up, therefore the tile/stone will sag if not held in place. LFT mortar grabs quicker and helps prevent sagging. If you mix it on the thick side, it acts like a mastic - mix it thin and it acts like a regular thinset. Adjust depending on if you are working on walls or floors. Floors do not need a high initial grip as gravity is your friend. On a wall, gravity works against you.

If you have ever tiled a wall where you had to tile around a door or archway, you know that you tile one side of the door, go up and over the top and then DOWN the other side. Working from the top down (so everything lines up correctly) requires something that will help hold the tile in place. With a regular thinset, You have to drive temp. nails under the tile to hold while you set the row beneath.

You pay more for quality paint, more for #1 grade lumber etc. It is not unlike everything else, you pay a premium for better stuff.

Buy a bag of each to start, if you see no difference with the type of stone you are using, then go ahead and use the cheaper thinset.
 
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Old 09-26-13, 07:53 AM
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OK thanks for clearing that up.

Would you say dry stack is more forgiving in having to stay flushed/plumed to line?also i like the look of this and mortar joint isn't necessary for this stack i assume.

I'm only doing a half wall but I feel that can get complicated since I'm doing that to just the front of the house and not sure if I need corner pieces then cut it off into a vertical line on the adjacent wall and attached a j channel to continue with the vinyl siding or..

just do the half wall on front with no corner pieces and have it extend to just the vinyl trims/j-channel?

either way the vinyl siding will hide cuts of cultured stone. as i read online that you have to hide cuts of this kind of stone though i'm not to sure about that.
 
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Old 09-26-13, 12:14 PM
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Is the wall open ended on both sides? Sometimes you get lucky the way the layout is such that you can stretch the gap between stone starting several feet from the end and make it work out to a whole. You can also hide the cut inside the last 2 or 3 stones so you can end with whole piece. Depending on the length of the wall, it sometimes pays to pre-rack the stone on the ground. I have also purchased some concrete coloring agent and mixed it into small batches and smeared onto the stone to replicate a finished end. Don't cut the end with a saw, instead, snap it with a brick hammer to give a more natural break. Hold the stone in your hand and give it a good smack with the back side of the hammer until it cracks. Marshalltown 16 oz. Brick Hammer-BH760-HD at The Home Depot. Also, use a good mix of all size stones or you will end up with nothing but small ones as you near the top.

What is the name of the stone just out of curiosity, want to peak to make sure not surprises for you.
 
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Old 09-26-13, 11:40 PM
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the wall on all sides are closed up, vinyl siding on all four sides is just the front will have half stone (bottom) and other half (top) vinyl siding.

i appreciate the tips of spread or cutting the culture stone before getting to edge. i will have to worry about the front door edges (left and right) and the edge to the other 2 sides (left and right) of the spaces/cutting of the culture stones to have whole stone on the edge.

another great tip on the concrete coloring and tools for cutting.

about the cultured stones, its priced at 1.99 dollar a sq ft due to the fact they are sames stones but from different batches which i'm planning to mix them all for a cohesive look. its the Olde Country Ledgestone

i've gotten 2 other suggestions online for what product to use with cement boards/stones and wonder your thoughts on it,

first is Quikrete CSC-4 mortar and Acryl 60 bonding agent

second is Anti-Fracture Underlayments and Mortars - Prevent Cracks in Tile and Stone laticrete primer and mortar

do you use backer rods in this kind of masonary. if so, i'm not sure how to install that but i'll have to search more online
 
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Old 09-27-13, 01:35 AM
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Wrong application for backer rods. Use tile spacers instead, if you want to keep things in place until the bonding mortar (or thinset) takes a set.
 
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Old 09-27-13, 08:16 AM
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I wasn't planning to use the backer rods for spacing but for transitioning like shown here Stone Siding | Structure Tech Home Inspections. I'm not sure if that is even necessary.
 
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Old 09-27-13, 08:41 AM
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Backer rods are used to take up space. It saves you caulking a large void and wasting tube upon tube of caulking.

The mortars you mentioned are for a traditional stone application that involves installation of wire lath, a scratch coat, and then a final application of the veneer. You bypass the scratch coat by using cement board which has a pre-roughed up surface. Thinsets are designed specifically for use with cement board and already include the polymer bonding agent you also mentioned.

Having looked at the stone you plan on using, just a quick suggestion. The stone seems varied enough with lots of different sizes and shapes. Each box will be different, but there are not a limitless supply of shapes. They will repeat themselves. So, open up all the boxes and peek inside, look at the large ones and plan on randomly spacing these so that they are not adjacent to each other and are spread throughout the wall. We do the same thing with tile as a repeat pattern will look un-natural and ruin the look. You want a wall that looks like it was supplied by "Mother Nature" and not country ledgestone.
 
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Old 09-27-13, 12:37 PM
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czizzi i will definitely go with the LFT thinset but i like the laticrete air and water barrier primer used on cement boards and might incorporate that with LFT thinset. thanks for all your input. i feel like i have a really good grasp on how to do this now.
 
 

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