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How to I prepare the surface to install stone panel on the stucco?

How to I prepare the surface to install stone panel on the stucco?

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  #1  
Old 08-04-14, 08:34 AM
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How to I prepare the surface to install stone panel on the stucco?

Hi,

I would like to install the stone panel on my front porch. As you can see in the picture, can I just apply thin-set to the stucco? If not, then what to do? And how do I install the archway and the underneath?

Thanks,

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  #2  
Old 08-04-14, 10:13 AM
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Welcome to the forums!

As a painter I've seen a lot of stone attached directly to masonry but the fact that the stucco is painted complicates things. A bare minimum would be applying a bonding agent, might need to install lath a bed coat of mortar. Stick around and see what some of the others say.
 
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Old 08-04-14, 10:15 AM
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Are you just doing the inner/back wall or do you also want to veneer the arch?
 
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Old 08-04-14, 11:01 AM
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Thank you guys.

I want to cover the whole thing ( 2 poles and the archway) with the stone panel.

I don't mind removing the stucco before installing the stone panel. I just need some proper instruction as I am a DIY newbie.
 
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Old 08-04-14, 12:48 PM
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Before doing anything I would come up with a plan to handle the arch. Do you have the ability to cut the stone? Can you install the stone without the cut edge showing? Will the cut edge be attractive enough for you? A flat wall with straight lines is pretty easy but the inner face of the arch and the curve of the arch on the face may open a can of worms especially for a first time project.
 
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Old 08-04-14, 01:00 PM
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Those are the questions I am asking myself too. I would use the wet tile saw to cut the stone. Never try it so not sure how good I can get. Let's say if I just do the front/back/side flat wall straight installation, would it look awkward leaving the archway uncover with stucco?
 
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Old 08-04-14, 01:26 PM
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I've painted homes where the brick/rock only came part way up on the arch so it's not unheard of. A lot depends on what you want it to look like along with what you might be willing to sacrifice because of cost or ability.
 
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Old 08-04-14, 01:37 PM
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I am willing to leave the inner of the archway the way it is. But then how do I prepare the surface for the stone panel installation? Can I just apply thin-set? or I will need to remove the stucco surface. If so, what tools do I need, and instruction?
 
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Old 08-04-14, 01:44 PM
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to be more precise, I guess I don't really need to remove the stucco as I don't know what material beneath under. I just need to find out what to do to prepare the stucco surface for the thin-set application?
 
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Old 08-04-14, 01:45 PM
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I'm a painter, not a mason although I have been on numerous jobs [new construction] with stone masons. I don't know if you can mortar directly to the stucco although I'm sure if you do you'd need to either scrape off some of the paint or apply a bonding agent.

Thin set is for tile and wouldn't be used for stone. Most of the masons I've been around use type S mortar with their stone work.
 
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Old 08-04-14, 02:03 PM
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Thanks for the quick response. I am clearer to what to do now. What tools would you use to scrape off the paint and what bonding agent to use?

One more question, how do I hang the stone on the middle section of the arch before it gets set from the mortar? Since there's no support from the ground.
 
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Old 08-04-14, 02:15 PM
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Most anything can be used to scrape off the paint, it's not like you care if you damage the stucco any.
While I've rolled on some bonding agents before I really don't know anything about them. Hopefully some of the others will have more/better info for you.
 
  #13  
Old 08-04-14, 03:21 PM
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What type of stone are you installing, can you share the make and model?

What type of stucco? Is it real cement stucco or the fake hardcoat over styrofoam?

Need to start at the basics first to determine course of action.
 
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Old 08-04-14, 06:05 PM
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Riverside Stone Veneer, Inc. - Product
Southern 211118-B

MS International Golden Honey Ledger Panel 6 in. x 24 in. Natural Quartzite Wall Tile (5 cases / 30 sq. ft. / Pallet)-LPNLQGLDHON624 at The Home Depot

The above are the stones that I would like to install.

What can I do to check "What type of stucco? It looks like real cement because it's really hard.

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/exterior-paneling-all-exterior-sidings/531351-how-i-prepare-surface-install-stone-panel-stucco.html#ixzz39THxn14T"
 
  #15  
Old 08-04-14, 09:01 PM
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Has the stucco been painted? If the dash finish is Portland cement based and not painted you don't need to remove anything. To tell if it is paint just toss some water on it. If it darkens substantially and the water soaks n it has not been painted. If there is not a substantial color change and the water sheds it is painted.
Now if there is paint you can use a bonding agent like WeldCrete by Larsen's products. that is a lotto hang on only a thin layer of bonding agent, however. If it is not painted you should probably apply a scratch coat of Portland cement plaster in order to get more suction and a bond with the mortar you use to stick the stone.
I don't trust bonding agent to hold the stone's weight so an easier solution is to lath withs 2.5 diamond much metal laths stick the stone to that. if you find you don't have enough suction with the lath alone then scratch it and stick the stone to the scratch.
you can use screws derived below the surface of the stone below the stones to support the stones until your mortar has set then you can Eire leave the screws, they will hardly show or else remove them.
 
  #16  
Old 08-05-14, 06:28 AM
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Fake stucco will sound hollow when tapped on.

Need to account for the stone thickness in your plan. The sheets are 1 1/2" thick and will create issues around the window and door. I have used a similar product that was 6" x 12" but basically the same stone. Was fairly easy to work with. It is a dry stack type as grout is not used, so the arch is going to be a challenge.

When I did the 12"x12" column with this stone, I used a complimentary stone tile as a border to to handle the edge treatment. I then used the stone as an inlay to the border.

When you choose your mortar, consider looking to a tile shop and ask for a Large Format Tile mortar, they usually are stickier and you will have less problem with sag.
 
  #17  
Old 08-05-14, 11:16 AM
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so the best practice would be to apply an extra bonding agent before I install the stone with mortar on the stucco, right?

The guys at home depot are not too helpful on questions like these.
 
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Old 08-05-14, 11:35 AM
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Mortar doesn't like to adhere to paint so anywhere that comes into play it would be best to apply the bonding agent.

Generally the help at the big box stores barely know about the products they sell, you'll almost always get better advice [materials too] wherever the pros buy their materials. The sales help at a supplier usually know more about their products and when they don't there is usually a pro handy they get more info from.
 
  #19  
Old 08-05-14, 11:38 AM
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Pony 6 in. Opening 3-1/2 in. Deep Frame Light-duty C-clamp-1460-C at The Home Depot

Should I use something like this to hold the stone for the arch section? If not, please give me the name of tools to use.

One last question, so you guys suggesting that I don't need to scrape anything off from the stucco to start the installation?
 
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Old 08-05-14, 11:43 AM
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by the way, thanks for all the input. It really helps.
 
  #21  
Old 08-05-14, 12:54 PM
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Is the stucco painted? It is typical that the stucco finish coat is colored it might not be painted. I told you how to tell if it is paint. If it is not painted but is clean you should be able to stick the stone to that. If it is painted use bonding agent at your risk. You are trusting a thin film of paint like material to hold a lot of weight. And the bonding agent is only as good as the paint it is applied to. If the paint loosens so will the bonding agent and so will the mortar you stick it with and so will the stone. We all use bonding agent to stick cementitious material to paint and we do this knowing full well that if the paint fails so does our work. Sometimes it happens and when it does it is usually from trying to put on too much stuff. Now if the wall is painted lath is a better option. You will have to find the studs and nail through the stucco into the studs. Use long enough nails. You might want to predrill the holes through the stucco before you nail or screw the lath.

If you use a clamp what are you clamping to? And how many pieces do you intend to put up at once and how many clamps will that take?

I have 45 year's experience in the plastering and stuccoing trade. I know whereof I speak. I have applied manufactured stone many times. If my stucco were painted I would lath it or remove the paint. Lathing seems like less work than removing paint to me. If it were not painted then I would try to stick the stone to the stucco. If I didn't like the lacks of suction in the finish stucco then I would apply a tight scratch coat first to get more suction.
Suction is the holding power or absorption that keeps the stone and mortar from sliding down the wall.
 
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Old 08-05-14, 04:36 PM
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  #23  
Old 08-05-14, 05:42 PM
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Yes, that is the lath. It is intended to be installed horizontally in the long dimension. sometimes, like perhaps on the inside of the arch it can be installed vertically. And there is a right and wrong way to install it. If it is horizontal and you run your hand up and down, you will find it is harder to rub in one direction than the other. For proper instalation you want there to be ore friction going up. If you look _at the lath you will see the difference. Of course this does not apply if you run it vertically, just be consistent in the direction. Probably you can't get self furred lath with dimples in it at Home Depot. That will probably not matter becUse the texture in the stucco will hold the lath away enough to get good keys.
You still have not told me if the wall is painted.
If you use lath you might be able to stick he stone directly to the lath but if it doesn't seem to stick without sliding then apply. Scratch coat to the lath, let it cure. Few days then stick the stone.
Ifear you might have some trouble holding the stone the soffit of the inside of the arch. Strong tape wrapped up onto the inside and outside faces might help or drive some screws into the wall on the inside and outside faces and wrap wire around them to hold the pieces on the soffit until the mortar has set. The screws and wire can be removed when the mortar has set. If this does not work you can figure something out. You can wedge a lot so sticks from floor to soffit to hold the pieces up for instance. More narrow pieces of stone will fit the curvature of the soffit of the arch better than fewer wide pieces.
 
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Old 08-05-14, 09:24 PM
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Quick update, I think it's painted and fake stucco as the sound from the knocking it tells.

So I will use the lath and mortar. Anything else I should be aware?

Thank you all
 
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Old 08-05-14, 11:04 PM
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Tightcoat, it's painted fake stucco. What's best practice to install the 4inch by 20inch stone then. They are about 9lb each piece. The surface area is about 100 square feet. I am not intending to install the underneath of the arch. Just the front/back/side linear surface.
 
  #26  
Old 08-05-14, 11:11 PM
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I have been assuming you had real three coat stucco about 3/4" thick. If you have styrofoam under 1/4 - 3/8" stucco then you should lath it use nails long enough to go into th studs about an inch. Maybe just maybe you should tear off what you have. Make sure you have thin stucco over foam before you do this.
Yes, this is contrary to what I said to begin with.
If you decide to leave it and lath there is one problem with this. The nails will not have much support through the foam, this will let th nails tend to bend when the weight of the stone is hung on them. I think a few extra nails and maybe one size larger than you might otherwise use should take care of that problem.

How old is the house? This will help determine if you have tick or thin stucco.
 
  #27  
Old 08-05-14, 11:18 PM
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We posted at the same time. For the size you have I think I would lath it and use extra nails into the studs.
Do you think there is plywood behind the foam?
 
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Old 08-06-14, 12:37 AM
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The house is built in 1980. What can I do to see what material beneath the stucco? When I knock on the stucco, it gives me a wood feeling from the vibration.
 
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Old 08-06-14, 12:50 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suq_WZvcvtg

I got a better understanding what's the stucco is all about after this video.

So should I lath over the stucco, then apply the mortar between the stone and the lathed stucco?
 
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Old 08-06-14, 12:56 AM
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It looks like I will have to use the think black paper wrap around the area first, then lath, then apply the mortar to the stone to install it
 
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Old 08-06-14, 05:20 AM
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the think black paper wrap around the area first
That would be roofing felt, also called tar paper. It prevents any moisture that comes thru the masonry from going further into the house. I would think that there is already a layer of felt behind the stucco so more wouldn't be needed ..... but I'm just a painter, if TC says different - listen to him!!
 
  #32  
Old 08-06-14, 05:47 AM
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If it is styrofoam stucco, I would be inclined to remove it completely from the area to receive stone. I would add felt paper and 1/2" cement backer board. I think those stones are too heavy to try to float lath over styrofoam. I would be concerned about sag from the length of nails as previously mentioned. It also removes some of the issues with the added thickness of the stone around the window and door.
 
  #33  
Old 08-06-14, 09:04 AM
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At 11:37 you asked what you can do to see what you have. Since you are going to cover it all over anyway, cut a hole a couple inches square. Use a diamond or carbide saw and cut through the stucco. You will know right away if it is 3/4" thick or 1/4 - 3/8". You will also see if you have styrofoam behind the stucco and you will see if you have plywood behind whatever is there.
If it is thin stucco over foam I would be inclined to remove it. Code requires two layers of paper over plywood you can use one layer of paper then paper backed woven wire or two layers of paper and plain wire. If I use two layers of paper I like to cut the bottom of the first course of paper about in half and then go up by whole widths. This puts the lap between the two layers at different places.
Over open framing only one course of paper is required. I suppose it never hurts to have another layer of paper if you go over the existing stucco but I am not sure I would use it, especially over the heated/air conditioned area of the house. I remember reading once somewhere that you should not have two vapor barriers on a wall. Check this out with someone who knows more about this than I.
One more thing, if you have foam behind the stucco and if there is a weep screed it will have a 1 1/4 inch bottom. Your new stucco, if you go that route will not be that thick. If the stone will make up that thickness then leave the weep screed, notice that the paper goes over the tall flange of the weep screed not behind it, but if the stone does not make up the thickness you should consider replacing the weep screed too with thinner grounds like in th video you linked to.
Where in CA from someplace I have heard of are you?
If thee is a good plaster/stucco supply or masonry supply yard there they can give you good local advice. They will probably sell to you and the material will be atleast comparable in price if not chePer than HD and the people there know something. Sometimes they can be a little rude to amateurs but usually they are helpful. Give them a try. Be completely honest with them and tell them exactly what you have. Good manners would be to get all the advice you can and then buy the material there. They will possibly sell the stone or some like it there too. They will know local practices and helpful tradesmen too.
Pap
 
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Old 08-09-14, 02:50 AM
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Hi, I am located in CA, Rowland Heights. Another thought, can I just sand off the very surface of the stucco with an angle grinder? Then it should leave me the cement base to install the stone on it.

What grinding wheel would you use for the job?
 
  #35  
Old 08-09-14, 01:11 PM
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You can grind it off. Use a coarse grinder made for concrete. If you have thincoat stucco you run a big risk of going right through it. AND the grinder will leave the surface too smooth, that is not open enough or gritty enough to get a good bond. Wash all the dust off with a hard stream of water after you grind it. If you do this then before you stick the stone you should mix up some really rich basecoat maybe 2 : 1. Sand : cement and really grind it in with the trowel and then rake it with a coarse stiff broom or a plasterer's rake or scarifier. This will leave a good surface to bond the stone to and will flatten out some of the ripples the grinder leaves.

This will be terribly dirty. Wear a good respirator and do it on a calm day if you want to be a good neighbor or a windy day if you wants to blow the dirt away frog you faster. I mean a respirator not just a dust mask.

I actually thought of this but ruled out suggesting it because of the mess. I've never tried this but maybe if you have a partner run a small stream of water just behind or just ahead of the grinder it will keep some of the dust down. Or maybe have the partner hold the nozzle of a shop vac right close to the grinder t catch some of the dust. Equip the vacuum properly with a filter or bag so you don't burn out the motor.
 
  #36  
Old 08-13-14, 08:20 AM
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Please tell us what you did. Did you cut an inspection hole? What did you find? Did you use the grinder? How did that work? Have you stuck any stone? What process did you use? Can you put up some pictures of e finished work?
 
  #37  
Old 08-13-14, 12:02 PM
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I asked my relative who's a contractor. He gave me the thing to use with the grinder. I haven't started yet, as I am not sure how to use it. Any idea how to sand the stucco off with the given tool? I tried to search on youtube but didn't find any video about it. Here's the steps that I will be taking:

1. Sanding off the stucco with the grinder and the given disc (need instruction)
2. wash off the surface
3. use Type S mortar to do a scratch coat
4. install the stone
** would the mortar be strong enough to stick the stone without the ground support? The arch section won't have any support, so what do I do there?

I should start working this Saturday. I will get more updated pictures about the progress.

Thanks~
 
  #38  
Old 08-13-14, 03:31 PM
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Is this two seperate disks or it is the front and back of the same one. I think the one to use is the bottom one, with the concave part toward the wall. Start gently and you will get the feel of it in a minute. Keep the cup as flat as you can to the wall.
In theory after your scratch coat has set a day or two it should have enough suction to hold the stone. You butter the stone and slap it against the wall, wiggle it a little and hold it a few seconds and it should stay. If not then figure out a way to hold it from sliding down the wall. You might have to get ingenious to do this
Now have you determined if there is thin coat stucco 1/4" - 3/8" or maybe even thinner than that? Is there foam behind the stucco?
Remember I have been going on the assumption you have conventional three coat stucco. If you have foam with 20 ga woven wire over that and 1/4 - 3/8" stucco you are trusting the staples in the wire to hold more weight than is typical. If you have a fiberglass mesh over the foam and the coating is like less than 1/4/? you have Exterior Insulating Finish System EIFS take that off and start from the sheathing out with new stuff.
 
  #39  
Old 08-14-14, 05:55 AM
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If you can't figure it out any other way, you can cut/grind thru your stucco to determine what type it is. If it's ok to leave it, all you have to do is fill that section back in with your mortar.
 
  #40  
Old 08-14-14, 09:15 AM
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I can tell what it is by one look and one thump with mu knuckle. I sure would feel better if you would cut an inspection hole and report back.
 
 

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