Siding over wood siding

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Old 10-19-15, 02:59 PM
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Siding over wood siding

My house is getting to be quite old. It has wood siding on it now that is definitely needing replaced. I am wanting to go with a vinyl siding for the new. I had someone come out and look at it a couple of months ago and he said that he would put some insulation board and the siding right over the wood. Is this common practice or the best way to do it? I'm sure it helps insulating it. Right now, I need all of the help I can get with that, as I can feel the cold through the walls.

I am thinking of getting stone work done where I have wood paneling in the front of my house. Rather than just siding. I live in a smaller ranch home, so it would add some dimension. Would that wood paneling need to come off, or can the stone be done right over it?

I have a pic I took previously for this site that shows just a little bit of the paneling.



Thanks for the help!
 
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Old 10-19-15, 03:26 PM
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Best practice is to take it all off and install a wrb over the sheathing. Many do put fanfold over the existing, it just adds excess thickness and makes the windows look VERY sunken into the siding. Many use the argument that leaving it on is added insulation but IMO that is just a lazy way of doing it, and trying to find a silver lining.
 
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Old 10-19-15, 03:58 PM
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What's a wrb?

Does anyone else that taking it off is the correct way? In all reality, does it matter if it is not taken off, other than the windows looking sunken in?
 
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Old 10-19-15, 05:27 PM
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WRB = water resistive barrier. In your case, adding an extra layer of siding on top of the existing siding will also build your siding out past the gable fascia... not a good scenario. And that looks an awful lot like Masonite siding.
 
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Old 10-19-15, 09:09 PM
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Another vote for removing the old siding.
It was common long ago to just install the siding over the studs, no sheathing.
Not saying that's how yours was done but may be the reason your feeling the air coming in.
I agree 100% with the other posters.
Just asking for leaks behind the siding at the gable ends and around the windows if this is not done right. And it almost never is.
 
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Old 10-20-15, 08:23 AM
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How can I test to see if I have sheathing? I would really hate to tell the contractor to remove the wood siding, then have to put up sheathing on top of all of that. Anytime it is hot or cold out, my drywall reflects how it feels outside.

If I had them remove the wood siding, do you guys think it would result in a larger installation bill?
 
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Old 10-20-15, 08:34 AM
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Are there any bad spots in the siding that would let it see or feel behind the siding? Removing an electrical device should also let you see if there is sheathing.

Any time you add labor or material to the job the price will go up. While it is cheaper to use fanfold and side over the existing, I agree it's better to strip off the old siding and do whatever is needed to make everything right.
 
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Old 10-20-15, 09:02 AM
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I agree with others that leaving the old siding in place is a poor option.

Let's back up for a second. You are addressing two different issues and perhaps you should wait on the siding, a cosmetic issue, and focus on the heat loss. Example, insulation and ventilation improvements should be done before the new siding. Too many time we advise on a solution to hear the poster say, we just installed that new. Blown-in cellulose can be installed through holes from the outside, but NOT if you just installed it new.

Plus, the dollars you save on heating costs could be added to that new siding.

Bud
 
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Old 10-20-15, 10:34 AM
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Bud9051, I am a bit confused with some of your post. Wouldn't adding new siding, with a new insulation boards, be addressing that issue?

I'm really confused with what you mean here:

Too many time we advise on a solution to hear the poster say, we just installed that new. Blown-in cellulose can be installed through holes from the outside, but NOT if you just installed it new.


marksr - There is a spot that some of the siding was ripped off on my garage part, but it came to my attention that my garage was added on after the house build, so I will have to look for another place that I can check.

What is fanfold?
 
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Old 10-20-15, 10:44 AM
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fanfold is thin foam panels that are often used under vinyl when it's installed over existing siding. It's only about 1/4" thick. It comes folded up hence the name.

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1
 
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Old 10-20-15, 11:13 AM
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pfar, you are not the first to find some of my posts confusing .

If the insulation board is the fanfold or anything other than a couple of inches thick, it adds virtually nothing to the insulation of your house. I'll be blunt. it is a marketing feature that tricks home owners into thinking it will reduce their heating costs, ESPECIALLY when it is just applied over the existing siding.

The other point which I tried to make and did so poorly is that energy improvements sometimes involve disturbing existing construction. The blown-in cellulose was just an example as we do not know what improvements your house could benefit from. But it is one where it is best done before the new siding is installed. Windows are another.

Why do we suspect that the insulation boards they are proposing are thin and almost worthless? Because we see and hear it all the time. Add to that, as others have stated, adding the new siding and insulation board would be an unacceptable installation since your home has no overhang on the gable end overhang. Their approach is to cover all of their sins with nice looking trim that will hopefully last long enough for them to cash your check.

Call a couple of other contractors and get the price with and without removing the existing siding. Ask about how they will trim the top edge on the peak end of your house.

For your energy concerns, see what energy audit options are available in OH and discuss with them your interest in new siding and what sequence they would advise.

Bud
 
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Old 10-20-15, 01:34 PM
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What exactly does all of this mean?

Add to that, as others have stated, adding the new siding and insulation board would be an unacceptable installation since your home has no overhang on the gable end overhang. Their approach is to cover all of their sins with nice looking trim that will hopefully last long enough for them to cash your check.

More specifically this part " your home has no overhang on the gable end overhang. ".



So, to save money, should I even get the fanfold?

Regarding the energy. I will be doing windows hopefully the same time as this. I don't want to spend a bunch of money getting insulation put in. I will most likely be selling or renting this property in the next 2-3 years, so the cost of insulation would probably never be seen.
 
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Old 10-20-15, 02:15 PM
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I'm feeling bad as I don't think you want to hear my concerns and what you have ask isn't terrible, like the house is going to fall down, but it is less than what a pro would want to see. Feel free to tell me to go away and I will with no animosity.

The overhang on the gable ends (that's all we can see) is almost flush with the siding. If you add the fanfold and new siding over that something has to be done at the top, because there is no overhang to enclose it. The same issue occurs around the windows. Because the new siding and fanfold will set farther out, they must fabricate some trim around the windows and doors to enclose the siding.

It is all of this trim fabrication that often lacks the quality and durability of new construction. I have been asked many times to help a homeowner reattach that type of trim because it is falling off. In addition, when not trimmed correctly, it allows water in which causes damage down the road.

I've added a link below about "overhangs" maybe that will help.

You also mentioned new windows. If installed with the old siding removed you could use "new construction" units. They fit better and allow for better air sealing. If you leave the old siding in place, you must use "replacement windows" which use the old frames with just new windows and slides. But the replacement installation doesn't always include sealing around that trim.

Best,
Bud
Every House Needs Roof Overhangs | GreenBuildingAdvisor.com
 
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Old 10-20-15, 02:30 PM
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Thanks for the clarification of overhangs and gable. Those two sides are the only sides that is comes that close. I will post more pics. I understand what you are saying though. If the current siding is going to cause all of these potential issues, then I would just pay more to get it done right. Hopefully not too much more.

I am wanting to do the windows at the same time, but we will see. Finances will determine that.

I have had window guys out before and they told me I would get new frames and everything with the replacement windows.
 
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Old 10-20-15, 05:34 PM
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Replacement windows and new construction windows are fairly universal terms so I'm sure that salesman is aware of the difference. When someone doesn't want to disturb the inside trim and the outside trim and siding, the replacement window is an easy option. It does have its own frame, a bit smaller than the current window frame, but all they do is remove the glass frames and trim and slide in the new window.

Now, that description is from my limited experience with them and applies to typical double hung windows. I can't see from the picture what type of windows you have so best we wait for one of our pros more familiar with all windows.

If you are familiar with what you have, let us know so we don't have to guess from the picture.

Bud
 
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Old 10-20-15, 07:57 PM
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I guess I am going to go with the opposite of what everyone else here is saying. Your question was basically "is going over the existing siding a bad idea?". The real answer is no. Aside from what has already been mentioned above (windows sitting farther back, but only by and inch or so) going over the existing siding will not have any adverse effects on the house. To the contrary, by leaving the existing siding in place, you are giveing yourself one extra barrier against water infiltration as vinyl siding does nothing to keep water out.

Now, having said that, "ideally" yes you would want to remove all the old, but all you are really doing is adding to the cost of the job, in the end, it is going to look about the same, especially to the untrained eye, and it is going to perform the same.

If you are planning to change the windows out at the same time (which would be highly recommended IMO) you are soulving the sunking in look as you can set the window out to accomidate the extra depth, just make sure they are still flashed properly.
 
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Old 10-22-15, 07:28 AM
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Thanks Bud and Keith for the great advise.

Here is a pic of the front of the house. It may give a better idea with the windows. The white part is the area I was mentioning about stone work in my original post.

 
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Old 10-22-15, 07:58 AM
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Nice house.
OH is not noted for moderate winter temps so when the opportunity arises to incorporate some energy improvements they are usually worth the cost and effort. My business (although retired) is energy auditing and in that capacity I have on occasion had to estimate the heat loss through a wall assembly where new siding has been installed over the existing with a thin layer of insulation added for selling purposes. Although the home owners are excited about their new siding and the benefits of the added insulation, the numbers just don't support that excitement.

But the siding can be done that way and it can be a good job at a reasonable cost. My concern is that this will be one of those lost opportunities given the new windows (new construction vs replacement), the future stone work, and the ability to correct any air leaks uncovered once the old siding is gone.

Even if you don't plan on the stone work this fall (getting late anyway) talk to those contractors before you proceed with the siding as they may have advice that will avoid duplicating efforts. Also, talk to some siding people about adding 1" to 2" of extra rigid foam along with the new siding. Since you have a nice overhang on the front and I assume the back, adding extra thickness in those areas is less of an issue.

Bud
 
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Old 10-23-15, 01:58 PM
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Thanks Bud! I will definitely ask them about the extra insulation. Won't that make the sides flare out much too far though, if I keep the wood on or even take it off?

I will try to post a pic of an area behind my siding this weekend.
 
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Old 10-23-15, 06:35 PM
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pfar54, are you up for doing any of the work yourself?
I ask because I received several quotes from contractors to re-side my house. I had them quote with and without me doing the tear-off.
I was motivated to remove the old siding, because I knew the sheathing underneath needed to be replaced.
By the way, the gable end of your ranch looks a lot like mine (except I'm removing cedar shingles).
In my case, I decided to do the work myself. It's taking me forever, but I couldn't afford even the lowest bid on the work.
Oh, and my wife and I are thinking of adding stone work too. We're still trying to figure out what would look good and not out of place.

Good luck with your project.
 
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Old 10-27-15, 09:59 AM
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SturdyNail - I actually did consider doing the siding myself. I actually used to work for a contractor when I was in college. Nothing big, I did it in the summer for a couple of months. I was the laborer and took off roofs and siding. I never had to deal with wood siding though. Mostly aluminum and vynal. It was really easy to take off. Usually me and another guy would have the entire house done in an hour or two, depending on how many electrical boxes or things we have to remove like shutters and things.

I never actually installed any siding though. I definitely understand the concept from removing it and seeing how it was installed. I just don't want to have to do it myself. If I left the wood siding on, I may consider doing it myself, but I think it may be best to pay someone to do it, so it is done fast, plus I will most likely be doing the windows at the same time.

What I will be doing to see what will look good with stone is photoshipping different patterns onto a picture of my house. I couldn't think of a better way to actually see it.
 
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Old 10-27-15, 01:42 PM
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I took these photos to show the depth of the windows. I am still looking for a good place to see if I have the sheathing.



 
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Old 10-27-15, 04:23 PM
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Pop off a piece of your brickmould and look.
 
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Old 10-27-15, 05:18 PM
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You can get a job done cheap and you can get a job done right, but you can't get a job done right and cheap. Have a siding installer show you how he will add insulation and siding over the wood siding on the gable ends and have it watertight. It appears you are taking lightly some sound advice in the many posts.
If you are worried about the cold walls, verify you have insulation in the outer walls and if not, have it blown in as a first step.
 
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Old 10-27-15, 07:00 PM
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@beelzebob, there is not such thing as a water tight vinyl siding installation. It is nothing more than a decorative and protective layer for the weather barrier under it (usually building wrap).
 
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Old 10-28-15, 01:40 PM
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What is brick mould?

I am not taking any advise from this lightly. The insulation aspect of this, I am not overly concerned as I won't be in this house for too long. The windows will make it a lot better as they are from when the house was build (1958) and are single pain.

I will never see the money I put into having insulation blown in. I am trying to add curb appeal and functionality, with the windows.

I am definitely going to look into methods of insulation, but it can't be anything overly expensive.
 
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Old 10-28-15, 01:51 PM
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Blown in is the cheapest way to insulate a house without disturbing the walls. The foam core that will go under your siding will help, but it will probably not be noticeable.

If you do end up deciding to remove the old wood siding, you may consider putting 1" rigid foam insulation on the outside first, that will make a noticeable difference, but probably not enough to justify the cost.

If your top priorities are curb appeal and saving money, have the contractor go over the old siding, and set the new windows out an extra inch when they are changed. That is about the cheapest way to go while still having acceptable finished results.
 
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Old 10-28-15, 03:27 PM
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Brickmould is the 2" wide trim around the outside of your window. If you remove a piece from the side or top, you will be able to see the sheathing it is nailed to.
 
 

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