Renovation of our old house

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Old 01-24-17, 08:05 PM
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Renovation of our old house

Gonna put this here as it has a lot to do with siding and all that goes along with it. September of 2015 my wife and I purchased a old home. It hadn't character, lots of wood work inside, all hardwood floors, a fireplace, unfinished basement. To make it a bit better yet, the house had been moved in 1974 from its original location and therefore had a 1974 block wall foundation rather then brick. The previous owners chose not to replace the windows, and we thankfully have the original windows to the house. Even found a original storm window and some of the original screens. They at some point added newer storm windows. Also at some point someone decided vynil siding needed to be put on. This killed some of the outdide character as they broke the top window jamb off.

Fast forward a year or so and we decided after looking at replacement windows, just to redo what we had. Researching what new windows would cost and what the actual savings would be, we couldn't justify it, not to mention we have 36 windows one of them with a round top. So we begin the process of pulling our first window. In that same process we decided to pull a piece of siding to see what exactly was underneath. We found cedar siding! Decent enough shape, but after 1/4" insulation board and siding all installed with 2" shingle nails, it had seen better days. So we are replacing what needs fixed and scraping/cleaning the rest.

Any advice is welcomed, I'm researching as I go and have already learned a ton about this stuff. I am able to do the work myself as I am a carpenter in my career as well.

Onto some pics
 
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Old 01-24-17, 08:10 PM
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Next to last pic isn't us trying out a few different colors and trying to I see code which we liked best. At this point we chose the big patch of grey. You can also see where I pulled the first window and covered the hole and a bunch of replacement cedar shingles.

Bottom pic shows the first window finally cleaned and the glass back in and glazed. I used dap for this window as asninfohnd locally, but have since switched to sarco. Much easier to use! Also notice the glaze is sitting where a pane should be...yep I broke 100 year old glass. It's all good. It's the wavy hand blown stuff that only cost some freakin 40 bucks a square foot locally.
 
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Old 01-25-17, 04:32 AM
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You have an excellent opportunity to install new construction windows since the surrounding exterior trim can be removed without disturbing the siding. Reusing the old windows/storms/screens will be terribly inefficient, but I can understand the cost factor. HOWEVER, by the time you remove the old sashes, sand them down, repair the boogers, paint them and reinstall them, you could have probably afforded new windows and realized the savings in a few years in heat/cooling cost.

If you are in to aesthetics, then you are on the right path. It will take a lot of time and work, but it may return thing as they were. The only drawback will be using storms over that wavy glass and hiding it's beauty. Trade off, I guess.
 
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Old 01-25-17, 05:09 AM
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There is a book that details standards for window restoration. It will give you good pointers and products to consider. I'm not particularly fond of the Dap glazing compound, you might look up "Sarco" putty as I feel it has better performance.

The book is " National Window Preservation Standards".

Restoration takes a long time and is labor intensive but the result is nice.
 
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Old 01-25-17, 05:29 AM
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You mentioned that new windows would not provide enough savings to justify their cost, consulting in this area is part of what I used to do before I retired. If you look at the bigger picture, the energy cost of the entire house once finished vs new windows, a good layer of exterior rigid foam, and then maintenance free new siding (not vinyl), and then add in the value of the new home vs a restored old home with historic character, the newer version wins.

There is a lot of effort going into the exterior and although it is within your skill set it will only be pleasing to your sentiment, not your pocketbook. Some upgrades are much easier to add when the time is right and redoing the entire exterior allows windows, aiding, and insulation to all be done at once. The air sealing improvement alone will be significant. Wind will blow right through that cedar and whatever insulation may be behind it.

Feel free to ignore me, it is just my point of view. I do love the looks of your home.

Bud
 
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Old 01-25-17, 07:48 AM
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Actually the cost of new windows in our house is in the range of 16-20 thousand from the estimates we have gotten. Those are installed of course. It will take me quite a while to recoup that cost.

I will agree with the storms being able to create a shadow effect, but the added character to the house from this is more what I am after.
 
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Old 01-25-17, 08:04 AM
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You mentioned that new windows would not provide enough savings to justify their cost, consulting in this area is part of what I used to do before I retired. If you look at the bigger picture, the energy cost of the entire house once finished vs new windows, a good layer of exterior rigid foam, and then maintenance free new siding (not vinyl), and then add in the value of the new home vs a restored old home with historic character, the newer version wins.

There is a lot of effort going into the exterior and although it is within your skill set it will only be pleasing to your sentiment, not your pocketbook. Some upgrades are much easier to add when the time is right and redoing the entire exterior allows windows, aiding, and insulation to all be done at once. The air sealing improvement alone will be significant. Wind will blow right through that cedar and whatever insulation may be behind it.

Feel free to ignore me, it is just my point of view. I do love the looks of your home.

Bud
Underneath the cedar siding is a 1" board that is tongue and groove. I am assuming at this point it is cedar as well, but I don't know that yet. I just found termite damage in one of the corners yesterday and will be fixing that as well now. As they didn't chew into the siding itself, but into the 1" boards, they may be pine.

In replacing some of the cedar shingle I have already found two different holes in two different areas where someone hole sawed and blew in insulation. Is this enough? I don't know. Is this everywhere? I don't know. I hope to find more of these holes with insulation throughout the house to give me a bit of piece of mind on some insulation being in the walls.

Question, what type of siding would you recommend? I am not wanting to go with vinyl again and liked the look of cedar shingle. I prefer this look over the newer vinyl cedar look as well. Would it be worth to pull the shingles off, add a layer of foam board, then reinstall the shingles?

I also understand the maintenance issue needed with painting and needing to repaint every 5-10 years. To me that is just part of it and having a old house like this.
 
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Old 01-25-17, 10:18 AM
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To evaluate where the insulation actually is an Infrared inspection could do that easily and those cameras can be rented. An inexpensive (less capable) camera can be purchased that would probably be adequate.

Knob and tube wiring if there should be replaced, removed, or at the least deactivated.

Lower Illinois will be r-13 walls, middle and upper areas are r-20 walls.
https://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCod...state=Illinois

A 1" continuous layer of rigid insulation with seals taped would provide a good air barrier. Although the drywall or plaster is often designated as the air barrier board sheathing allows a lot of air to infiltrate the wall cavities and remove heat from the house without actually leaking all the way in.

As for siding fiber cement is available with many options, probably $$ but they look great and are not vinyl. With you doing the labor you save half. This is just an example I found with pictures. No experience with siding, not my field.
RusticSeries - Siding That Looks Like Wood - Two Tone Siding

You could install the foam board, strap it and then go back to cedar shakes for looks. The strapping provides the shakes with a gap fro drying.

My home is undergoing a DIY deep energy retrofit, keeps the old guy busy, but I'm far enough along that I can now enjoy -20 outside and the heat only gives a short cycle every 30 minutes, very comfortable. I lived all of my life bundling up and turning down the thermostat to conserve heat and when I'm done here the heating costs will be a minor part of my retirement budget.

Bud
Since air sealing opportunities will present themselves as you progress here is a link with many suggestions.
https://www.energystar.gov/ia/partne...ide_062507.pdf
 
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Old 01-25-17, 02:31 PM
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Thanks for the links!

Part of the house has had the knob and tube removed and part hasn't. The top part. I've been in the attic and have found it needs way more insulation then is there as it barely covers the ceiling joists now. The knob and tube is there and exposed. I have done some research on it and how I can/need to replace and how I can cover it temporarily and insulate now. It is a whole different job in itself. UNLESS I talk the wife into letting me remove the siding and tear into the walls from the outside. The interior has the lath and plaster and we aren't tearing into it.

After my earlier post I went about researching what can be put under cedar shingles, and I am finding right along with your post. Either felt or foam board and create a rain shield.
 
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Old 01-25-17, 03:12 PM
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As you are learning renovating an older home is a project that just seems to keep growing. I've helped on a few and for myself I would never start with anything before 1980 or whatever the lead paint date is. Too late for the rest of that list and I don't want to take any shine off of your new home. I have seen some fantastic restoration jobs they just took a lot of work.

Bud
 
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Old 01-25-17, 04:44 PM
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Not taking any shine off it, just giving me points to think about an make sure I do it right the first time. No point in redoing the siding just to tear into into later for something else that could have been done the first time.

Updates will come as I can get them.
 
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Old 01-25-17, 07:17 PM
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I got a thermal temp gun tonight. I know it's not infared camera that shows leaks per say, but I can run around the house and check temps.

House thermostat is set at 70. Current temp outside is 36 with a real feel of 26 and wind gust out of the west to around 30mph. My interior walls are giving a reading of 69-70. Exterior walls are giving a reading of 63-67. 63 being the west side of the house that I have taken siding off and am down to cedar shingles. Honestly not much of a drop.

Pointing it at the windows where I know there is a leak it will drop down into the 40-50 range.
 
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Old 01-26-17, 04:13 AM
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There are several charts or graphs to estimate insulation value based upon the difference between an inside wall and an outside wall. Based upon the link below at 36 outside temp and a delta T of 3 to 6 degrees your insulation value would be (roughly) R-3 to R-8, the lower number being where you have removed the siding and that thin layer of foam. Your 26 number indicates some wind which would have a significant effect on the side without the siding and foam.

Here's one: http://www.oeic.us/articles/your_hom...asure_r_values

Now, a 3.5" wall neatly filled with insulation will average about r-8 to r-10. If there is wood behind the area you are pointing at then the r-value will be slightly lower. A lathe and plaster wall will have an irregular inside surface leaving the wall cavity somewhat less than the thickness of the framing and even with blown-in it doesn't fill perfectly.

And here is another. Infrared R-Value Help

I'll let you play.
Bud
 
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Old 01-26-17, 03:29 PM
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Thank you for the links again. They are helpful, once I figured out what they were saying. I spent most of my day working on the windows as it is again windy and cold here.

So from my readings. Currently it is 32 with a real feel of 20. Interior walls are 70/71 Exterior walls are in the 63-65 range. So lets say a average of 6 degree difference. R value of 5. Not so good.

Here is the kicker to me. Those are just the main floor numbers. If I go upstairs those numbers drop 10 degrees almost across the board on interior/exterior wall temp.

The upstairs has always been "colder", heck you can feel the temp change about half way up the stairs. I figured it was mostly due to the attic being under insulated, another change I am working on making.
 
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Old 01-28-17, 02:20 PM
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So I started tearing into the remote damage area today. Found quite a few boards that are going to get replaced. Also was a bit disappointed to find no paper of any kind between the one by boards and the cedar shingles.
 
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Old 02-15-17, 03:31 PM
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So a update finally! Got some things accomplished.

Replaced all the termite eaten boards I could find. Thankfully they had just eaten the face boards and not really gotten into the framing. It is all solid still.

Then started deshingling the main house. I drilled a few holes as I could see insulation from when it was blown in the walls, but still found two runs with no insulation at all. Also the porch area has no insulation, so it was added as well

After a lot of research and reading, I couldn't come to a difinitive answer as to whether I could place cedar shingles over a tyvek like product. So I am placing the tyvek first, then 15# felt, then shingles back on. Also adding a 6" face board at the bottom with a 6" shingle reveal.
 
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Old 02-16-17, 05:02 AM
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I don't know if tyvek and felt is needed, just one or the other. I'd probably just use the roofing felt.

I used dap for this window as asninfohnd locally, but have since switched to sarco.
I'm also not fond of DAP, I don't think I've ever used Sarco but I am partial to '66 Glazing' sold by Sherwin Williams. It's not as oily and keeps my fingers cleaner Ideally when reglazing a window you'd scrape, coat raw wood with oil base primer, glaze, prime and paint. Priming the raw wood first generally makes the glazing stay in place longer.
 
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Old 02-16-17, 11:37 AM
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I'm not sure both are needed either, but any paper under there that I am finding is so old and brittle it is useless. The tyvek stuff is actually doing a good job of keeping wind out, we can already tell a difference just with that little bit done. The felt is just my piece of mind that the shingle won't eat away the tyvek.
 
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Old 07-11-17, 05:05 PM
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It has definitely been a while since I updated. It here comes a few pics of the current state of our house. The last pic shows the first window to be redone and reinstalled as well.
 
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