Best Ammunition for Self Defense
#1
09-24-03, 06:01 AM
Best Ammunition for Self Defense
Now that we have everything settled in the best self-defense handgun department, what is the best ammunition to use?
We recently re-acquired our right to self defense here in Missouri when our congress overrode the governor's veto of a concealed weapons law, so guns and ammo are in the limelight. A lawyer who worked long and hard on this issue was telling me some disconcerting information. Hollow point ammunition (and of course all the "cop killer bullets", glaser rounds, etc constitute premeditation when used in self defense situations, which can turn a victim into a criminal. I guess, if a person would like to remain legal, only wad-cutters and blanks are permissible for self defense.
Hollow point, +P, titanium core, dipped in curare, inscribed with nasty personal messages, is just the stuff of dreams.
We recently re-acquired our right to self defense here in Missouri when our congress overrode the governor's veto of a concealed weapons law, so guns and ammo are in the limelight. A lawyer who worked long and hard on this issue was telling me some disconcerting information. Hollow point ammunition (and of course all the "cop killer bullets", glaser rounds, etc constitute premeditation when used in self defense situations, which can turn a victim into a criminal. I guess, if a person would like to remain legal, only wad-cutters and blanks are permissible for self defense.
Hollow point, +P, titanium core, dipped in curare, inscribed with nasty personal messages, is just the stuff of dreams.
#2
09-24-03, 08:49 PM
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In the begining there was the round nose.
In the early part of the 20th centery the Cities had a big problem. Police fired round nosed lead bullets, ricocheting all over town.
It was common to here of a bullet going 4 or 5 blocks and killing our wounding a kid. That is only part of the problem, due to the slow nature of a pistol bullet. A bullet had to be of large caliber in order to impart enough shock to stop the body.
Unlike a rifle bullet at 1800fps & faster there is no Hydrostatic shock & secondary bone fragments to increase shock. If the truth be known most except the heavest of Body armor will not stop a 22 magnum bullet from a rifle. Also any hand gun bullet that deforms on impact eg: hollow point, soft point, glaser, all copper or all aluminum hollow points. Will not defeat threat level 1 body armor it just flattens out. Those flack jackets you see our troops wearing in the middle east, are for piecies of metal called flack/schrapnel. A .223 or 7.62X39 will go through them like a T-shirt.
No rules in stone save one. Do not use handloads, use US Government approved factory self defence loads eg: (Factory Loads) Silvertips, Cor Bon, Glaser, Gold Dot, hollow points, soft points ect. There are more but every factory tells you what to use their ammo for. No bonehead Laywer can say anything except, you used the right product (Ammo) in your firearm. Not some deadly concoction you whipped up at your reloading bench. As if you could make a glaser, LOL.
Before we had the high speed expanding bullet we had to use a fat 58 caliber bullet to work like a .30 caliber bullet that expanded to 62 caliber. The smaller the caliber you have, the more expantion you will need. A .38 cal will expand up to 50 caliber with the right bullet, as a 45 cal will go over 80 caliber also.
Are you begining to see we need to make a hole wide enough to rip a lot of nerves & blood vessels? How else does a pistol stop an attacker except by shocking the nervous system? This means putting as much of the bullets energy into the target to cause a shock to the system. As a bullet peels back it slows down inside the target. As it slows down it imparts an energy dump into that target, causing the nerves to shut down the brain.
The so called Cop killer bullet. Well you now know, how well a .22 magnum from a rifle works on body armor. Over 2000 fps and a small diameter bullet zips right through. Now there was a bullet made of brass with a very sharp point & was Teflon covered, fired very fast from a handgun the French designed (Arcane) bullet. We never had them in the US & the French used them for getting through car bodies & other light cover with 9mms. The whole thing in the US was made up for Votes, by Polititions.
Oh Ps: What ever you chose it must work & not jam in a semi autos. Revolvers are not as picky only try a speed loader with wad cutters & see how much fun that is, compared to 6 Cor-Bon trunicated hollow points in a speed loader.
The Police love the Federal Hydra Shoks in their pistols & revolvers. They have a very high knock out ratings in some tests. What others have you read about that are considered good stoppers?
Marturo
It was common to here of a bullet going 4 or 5 blocks and killing our wounding a kid. That is only part of the problem, due to the slow nature of a pistol bullet. A bullet had to be of large caliber in order to impart enough shock to stop the body.
Unlike a rifle bullet at 1800fps & faster there is no Hydrostatic shock & secondary bone fragments to increase shock. If the truth be known most except the heavest of Body armor will not stop a 22 magnum bullet from a rifle. Also any hand gun bullet that deforms on impact eg: hollow point, soft point, glaser, all copper or all aluminum hollow points. Will not defeat threat level 1 body armor it just flattens out. Those flack jackets you see our troops wearing in the middle east, are for piecies of metal called flack/schrapnel. A .223 or 7.62X39 will go through them like a T-shirt.
No rules in stone save one. Do not use handloads, use US Government approved factory self defence loads eg: (Factory Loads) Silvertips, Cor Bon, Glaser, Gold Dot, hollow points, soft points ect. There are more but every factory tells you what to use their ammo for. No bonehead Laywer can say anything except, you used the right product (Ammo) in your firearm. Not some deadly concoction you whipped up at your reloading bench. As if you could make a glaser, LOL.
Before we had the high speed expanding bullet we had to use a fat 58 caliber bullet to work like a .30 caliber bullet that expanded to 62 caliber. The smaller the caliber you have, the more expantion you will need. A .38 cal will expand up to 50 caliber with the right bullet, as a 45 cal will go over 80 caliber also.
Are you begining to see we need to make a hole wide enough to rip a lot of nerves & blood vessels? How else does a pistol stop an attacker except by shocking the nervous system? This means putting as much of the bullets energy into the target to cause a shock to the system. As a bullet peels back it slows down inside the target. As it slows down it imparts an energy dump into that target, causing the nerves to shut down the brain.
The so called Cop killer bullet. Well you now know, how well a .22 magnum from a rifle works on body armor. Over 2000 fps and a small diameter bullet zips right through. Now there was a bullet made of brass with a very sharp point & was Teflon covered, fired very fast from a handgun the French designed (Arcane) bullet. We never had them in the US & the French used them for getting through car bodies & other light cover with 9mms. The whole thing in the US was made up for Votes, by Polititions.
Oh Ps: What ever you chose it must work & not jam in a semi autos. Revolvers are not as picky only try a speed loader with wad cutters & see how much fun that is, compared to 6 Cor-Bon trunicated hollow points in a speed loader.
The Police love the Federal Hydra Shoks in their pistols & revolvers. They have a very high knock out ratings in some tests. What others have you read about that are considered good stoppers?
Marturo
#4
09-25-03, 02:12 PM
Definitely, to stop a person, you have to hit a major nerve center. Sometimes major organs or bones etc. may work, but you can't count on it. In Viet Nam, the north used waves of soldiers with their bodies tightly bound, and souped up with speed. They could take multiple hits, but most of their body parts stayed contained by the wrappings. It was a definite phychological advantage to take multiple, visible hits and keep on coming. Police here in the world have also reported about criminals, on PCP or whatever, who continue to resist and attack even after receiving multiple GSW's.
Any bullet that goes on through takes some energy with it. A bullet that stops within a body delivers 100% of the energy it arrived with.
So, to effectively stop a person, you must hit them in a major nerve center with a bullet that imparts a maximum amount of energy. What that means is a bullet that expands rapidly upon impact, delivered to the mid-chest, or to the head.
Leg shots, "wing" shots, and shooting the gun out of their hand only works in Hollywood.
Any bullet that goes on through takes some energy with it. A bullet that stops within a body delivers 100% of the energy it arrived with.
So, to effectively stop a person, you must hit them in a major nerve center with a bullet that imparts a maximum amount of energy. What that means is a bullet that expands rapidly upon impact, delivered to the mid-chest, or to the head.
Leg shots, "wing" shots, and shooting the gun out of their hand only works in Hollywood.
#5
09-25-03, 08:21 PM
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Some interesting facts.
Some eye opening information from Military conflicts concerning the stopping power of various bullet sizes and shapes.
You will note that in the Phillipines the troops called back for the Single Action Army chambered for the 45 Colt. It seems the Moros wrapped themselves in magic cloths & in a Religious/drugged fever were not stopped by the new 38 spl. The .45 Long Colt at 255 grains stopped them cold.
To be honest there are no 100 percent hollow points, so keep that in mind when the first shot could be a nonexpanding round. This is why no matter the launcher the .45 acp is my first choice.
Every Hunter has had a hunting bullet fail to expand & then knows the long tracking game that follows. You could kill a Griz with a 30-06 with a head shot into a sitting Bear. When that freight train is charging you, however you would feel far better with a 458 Win Magnum or even a 338 Win Magnum.
Big or many (Shotgun) has allways been the best stoppers. However we carry smaller cartridges & need to focus on projectiles that grow bigger or shoot small pieces of the bullet inside the target.
Take the all aluminium Aguila the 45 acp weighs 117 and breaks into 4 jaged pices inside tissue at about 6" inches. If it hits a windshield it folds in like a Full metal jacket & penetrates the windshild. It is called the IQ for a smart bullet. Find the Aguila site to see how many calibers it comes in their fast with very little recoil.
The Glaser was designed for the Sky Martial program so it would not comprmise the planes hull. The #12 bird shot shocks the body like a much larger caliber. On the down side it is a poor penetrator. Why is that important? If my Wife were forced into a car or van, & if I had a bullet that would defete glass I will take out the driver. Once gone, you will never see her again.
Then we ask but aren't we going a bit far? No not if you plan for the unthinkable & what you will do.
What did you think of Hatchers forumula? A lot of those numbers still apply today. A heavy leather jacket can pack the hollow point into a round nose bullet of the same caliber you just fired.
No magic yet learning the double tap method, will improve your chances of a sure stop. What about trick bullets at the gun shows? Anyone try them?
Marturo
You will note that in the Phillipines the troops called back for the Single Action Army chambered for the 45 Colt. It seems the Moros wrapped themselves in magic cloths & in a Religious/drugged fever were not stopped by the new 38 spl. The .45 Long Colt at 255 grains stopped them cold.
To be honest there are no 100 percent hollow points, so keep that in mind when the first shot could be a nonexpanding round. This is why no matter the launcher the .45 acp is my first choice.
Every Hunter has had a hunting bullet fail to expand & then knows the long tracking game that follows. You could kill a Griz with a 30-06 with a head shot into a sitting Bear. When that freight train is charging you, however you would feel far better with a 458 Win Magnum or even a 338 Win Magnum.
Big or many (Shotgun) has allways been the best stoppers. However we carry smaller cartridges & need to focus on projectiles that grow bigger or shoot small pieces of the bullet inside the target.
Take the all aluminium Aguila the 45 acp weighs 117 and breaks into 4 jaged pices inside tissue at about 6" inches. If it hits a windshield it folds in like a Full metal jacket & penetrates the windshild. It is called the IQ for a smart bullet. Find the Aguila site to see how many calibers it comes in their fast with very little recoil.
The Glaser was designed for the Sky Martial program so it would not comprmise the planes hull. The #12 bird shot shocks the body like a much larger caliber. On the down side it is a poor penetrator. Why is that important? If my Wife were forced into a car or van, & if I had a bullet that would defete glass I will take out the driver. Once gone, you will never see her again.
Then we ask but aren't we going a bit far? No not if you plan for the unthinkable & what you will do.
What did you think of Hatchers forumula? A lot of those numbers still apply today. A heavy leather jacket can pack the hollow point into a round nose bullet of the same caliber you just fired.
No magic yet learning the double tap method, will improve your chances of a sure stop. What about trick bullets at the gun shows? Anyone try them?
Marturo
Last edited by marturo; 09-26-03 at 03:42 PM.
#6
09-25-03, 08:37 PM
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I carry Hydra-Shoks in my .38 revolver and in my speed loader. The .380 (semi-auto) is also loaded with Hydra-Shoks. I practice with hand loaded semi wad-cutters and Marturo is right about them slowing you down practicing with the speed loader! I have become proficient speed loading with the semi wad-cutters, but factory is soo much faster, and the range is a controlled environment... I do buy a box at the range to practice with using the .380 due to the potential for jamming with hand loads. And I do practice with factory loads in the .38 occasionally just to remind myself of the difference in the recoil (we load light for practice) plus I recover the brass, even though we can & do buy brass pretty cheap. For my car carry defense, are the Hydra-Shoks a wise choice in the .38 revolver or should I be loaded with something different?? I wanted the Glasers but the cost did not justify the benefits over the Hydra-Shoks, or was I mis-informed? I have only fired one full clip and one full cylinder of Hydra-Shoks, ever. Should I be practicing more with my carry ammo?
#7
09-25-03, 11:17 PM
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Hydra Shoks & Glasers
I like the hydra Shocks & many may not know this but the Hydra Shok was I can't remember the name now. They came in a lime green plastic box for handloading %#&* I hate it when that happens.
Anyway these cool semiwadcutters with the post in the center came in a 230 grain with pure lead & graphite coating I used them in my 44 spl Buldog. Federal just refined them & they realy work. One - is the do go through walls while a single sheet of wallboard will break open a glaser.
I guess you could do like my Wife does. She uses a Ruger Speed six in 357 mag, 2 speed loaders with different choices. A nice flat 12 pack with 2 more choices. Her main choice is the Federal 130 grain .357 Hydra Shock. Special purse with holster in the center or her fanny pack with holster built between you and purse.
She even carrys 6 180 grain Black Talons for Bear attack. The Black talon is 180 in 357 & 250 for 44 & to think the Government Banned hunting ammo everyone knew that, but them & Dan Rather LOL.
The glaser is very leathal & safer for inside the Home shoots. The price is due to all the hand work & testing, I have never seen a misfire.
What is the weight of your Hydra Shocks for your 38?
Anyway these cool semiwadcutters with the post in the center came in a 230 grain with pure lead & graphite coating I used them in my 44 spl Buldog. Federal just refined them & they realy work. One - is the do go through walls while a single sheet of wallboard will break open a glaser.
I guess you could do like my Wife does. She uses a Ruger Speed six in 357 mag, 2 speed loaders with different choices. A nice flat 12 pack with 2 more choices. Her main choice is the Federal 130 grain .357 Hydra Shock. Special purse with holster in the center or her fanny pack with holster built between you and purse.
She even carrys 6 180 grain Black Talons for Bear attack. The Black talon is 180 in 357 & 250 for 44 & to think the Government Banned hunting ammo everyone knew that, but them & Dan Rather LOL.
The glaser is very leathal & safer for inside the Home shoots. The price is due to all the hand work & testing, I have never seen a misfire.
What is the weight of your Hydra Shocks for your 38?
#8
09-26-03, 11:49 AM
"When it comes to stopping, first you make a big hole..."
When I was in the market for my first defensive handgun several years ago, I was fascinated by every new thing that came down the pike. (Not everything was really new, just new to me.) I wanted a 40 calibre, then a 41 mag, then a 10 mm, and then, and then, and then. One thing I noticed, though, was every write-up compared them to a 45 ACP. Then I started looking at prices and availability. Pricing was higher, and some stores didn't carry some of what I was looking for. One dealer asked me "a 10 mm what?"
They've been making 45 ACPs ever since bullets were invented, just about. They're available everywhere, and the price (due to sheer volume) is reasonable.
And, they make a big hole.
When I was in the market for my first defensive handgun several years ago, I was fascinated by every new thing that came down the pike. (Not everything was really new, just new to me.) I wanted a 40 calibre, then a 41 mag, then a 10 mm, and then, and then, and then. One thing I noticed, though, was every write-up compared them to a 45 ACP. Then I started looking at prices and availability. Pricing was higher, and some stores didn't carry some of what I was looking for. One dealer asked me "a 10 mm what?"
They've been making 45 ACPs ever since bullets were invented, just about. They're available everywhere, and the price (due to sheer volume) is reasonable.
And, they make a big hole.
#9
09-26-03, 05:15 PM
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The 45acp vrs the 9mm
The 454 Magnum ia a real hand full but it makes a big hole. A 70 cal Howa for shooting a Tiger in the face when boarding your Elephant was a God send.
The problem we all face is terminal performance from our under sized bullets. Large Battle Pistol are the exception to the rule & hard to carry in Summer.
The Hydra Shock has a lead post in the center to prevent pack up & with pack up you get no expansion. The glasier is very light & may have trouble getting in deep enough to work well.
Every thing matters, a heavy leather jacket or a T shirt. High on drugs to the point that a lost limb will not phase them for a while. The Rifle has high speed & rotation to open it's bullet while a Handgun depends more on bullet design.
The lighter the Handgun is & the heavier the bullet it's going to be hard to hold on to. The main reason the Police use the Hydra Shok is to put the bad guys lights out. If that ends with their death well so be it. Rape has never been good yet today you have a 9 out of 10 chance of being killed if you are raped so you can't ID the guy. Right at the percentage of unsolved Murders.
Our new Bad guy is a souless piece of trash that will be back out in 5 to 7 years if he get's caught that is. When the Police saw this change they had to change or die. You also must understand your enemy has no reguard for your life & will kill you just for fun.
You don't need to change into a monster, just try & understand the rules have changed. Instead of using ammo that makes a hole & the guy surrenders, now you must use enough force to stop them fast and for sure. That means that if you hit them once, you can't take a chance that they will sneak out a small hide away gun & shoot you back away watch him & for his buddys.
Do you work late? Get a good Maglight & check around your car, don't forget the back seat floor & under the car as you approch the car look around. Ladies get a purse made to carry & deploy a hand gun not just a bag. Guys pay the extra for the better made holsters not the floppy snagy cheapos.
Let's try and remenber that instead of saying get an RPG look for the best bulets to use in the smaller calibers. Everyday a new concept is being worked on in the huge self defence industries. The bullet does all the work so don't stop reading and learning as new rounds come out. Keep an eye on what Law Enforcement turns to, after they field test the different rounds.
http://www.sgtstryker.com/weblog/archives/002367.php
Some other voices to show how passionate the debate is. I do not agree with all I just want to present the debate in a no holds barred approach.
Marturo
The problem we all face is terminal performance from our under sized bullets. Large Battle Pistol are the exception to the rule & hard to carry in Summer.
The Hydra Shock has a lead post in the center to prevent pack up & with pack up you get no expansion. The glasier is very light & may have trouble getting in deep enough to work well.
Every thing matters, a heavy leather jacket or a T shirt. High on drugs to the point that a lost limb will not phase them for a while. The Rifle has high speed & rotation to open it's bullet while a Handgun depends more on bullet design.
The lighter the Handgun is & the heavier the bullet it's going to be hard to hold on to. The main reason the Police use the Hydra Shok is to put the bad guys lights out. If that ends with their death well so be it. Rape has never been good yet today you have a 9 out of 10 chance of being killed if you are raped so you can't ID the guy. Right at the percentage of unsolved Murders.
Our new Bad guy is a souless piece of trash that will be back out in 5 to 7 years if he get's caught that is. When the Police saw this change they had to change or die. You also must understand your enemy has no reguard for your life & will kill you just for fun.
You don't need to change into a monster, just try & understand the rules have changed. Instead of using ammo that makes a hole & the guy surrenders, now you must use enough force to stop them fast and for sure. That means that if you hit them once, you can't take a chance that they will sneak out a small hide away gun & shoot you back away watch him & for his buddys.
Do you work late? Get a good Maglight & check around your car, don't forget the back seat floor & under the car as you approch the car look around. Ladies get a purse made to carry & deploy a hand gun not just a bag. Guys pay the extra for the better made holsters not the floppy snagy cheapos.
Let's try and remenber that instead of saying get an RPG look for the best bulets to use in the smaller calibers. Everyday a new concept is being worked on in the huge self defence industries. The bullet does all the work so don't stop reading and learning as new rounds come out. Keep an eye on what Law Enforcement turns to, after they field test the different rounds.
http://www.sgtstryker.com/weblog/archives/002367.php
Some other voices to show how passionate the debate is. I do not agree with all I just want to present the debate in a no holds barred approach.
Marturo
#10
09-26-03, 07:06 PM
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My .38 Hydra-Shoks are Federal 158 grain if I remember correctly. It's been so long since I purchased them! I carry a purse typically when I'm out with my husband and only 5%-10% of the time when I'm not with him. I used to have one of those cheap floppy, yet comfortable, inside the waistband holsters until I was changing a flat and my gun fell out on the ground! Now I have a hard J Frame PWL, belt loop secured, inside the waistband holster and it's not really uncomfortable. I always have a flashlight (small but bright LED on my keychain) and try to be cautious. My biggest fear is that if I miss or just wound the perp, he will return with buddies. If this happened at home, I could get the Remington 700, hopefully...
Here's something that I don't understand. I have a healthy respect for firearms and their power. I was hesitant to fire my husband's Commander .45ACP so I tried his Glock 9mm. I shook with fear after one shot probably due to: the fact that the ejector had not been adjusted and the brass hit me in my forehead, being caught off guard when the trigger engaged, and the recoil due to the light weight of the Glock surprised me. But I still cannot bring myself to try it again, even though the ejector has been properly adjusted. I tried his .45 and did not have any problems even with the recoil, but that is probably due to the fact that the gun is so well balanced and is heavy. I know... girls, go figure! LOL
Here's something that I don't understand. I have a healthy respect for firearms and their power. I was hesitant to fire my husband's Commander .45ACP so I tried his Glock 9mm. I shook with fear after one shot probably due to: the fact that the ejector had not been adjusted and the brass hit me in my forehead, being caught off guard when the trigger engaged, and the recoil due to the light weight of the Glock surprised me. But I still cannot bring myself to try it again, even though the ejector has been properly adjusted. I tried his .45 and did not have any problems even with the recoil, but that is probably due to the fact that the gun is so well balanced and is heavy. I know... girls, go figure! LOL
#11
09-26-03, 09:17 PM
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The Master froze on the trigger.
I know you have been told just shoot it again, so I won't waste your time. When you need it you will do what needs to be done 
.
One thing I would reccomend, is to get away from the 158 grain Hunting bullets they are hunting bullets for a long barreled 357 Magnum only!
My Wife carries the HS 130 grain 357 Magnum & this will work very well. I believe you would be much better off with the HS 125 grain +P 38 special, that is a good high knock out round even in a short barrel. The + P loads are only 1/2 as much pressure as a 357 Magnum & are quite safe in your Taurus. Speed and light weight bullets are the key to sucess in a 38 Spl. A 158 grain bullet may not expand reliably in a 357 Magnum, much less a 38 Spl. The 158 bullet will go through the target & hurt someone else as it exits with full steam ahead. Go fast go light that's the working combo.
The 357 Mag was developed for the Highway patrol using a special pointed tungstun bullet at 130 grains for defeating the Mafias steel plate reinforced car doors. Later they found the M1 Garand with 30-06 armor piercing rounds worked much better.
Why do they offer a 158 grain load in a 38 spl? I'm glad you asked. Sometimes it hard for some to let the past go. Take the 30-06 rifle the ideal weight is 150 to 165 grains. Every year I see the 180 to 200 grain round nose bullet at the sporting goods store just to hunt Deer with. Too heavy & slow plus it has a rainbow trajectory like a cannon ball. Some hunters believe they will shoot through the brush better than light fast pointed nose bullets. I have read test where the 458 Win Magnum with a 500 grain bullet is deflected as much as a 30-06 180 grainer. So If I build ammo & they want them I'll make them any size they will buy.
As a handloader I can lighten the bullet weight and increase the powder charge, now I have a faster flatter bullet flight with the same if not less pressure. Some will say to use the 110 grain 38 spl but that 125 is a tried & true performer. With the 158 grain load you have to deal with more recoil and less or no expantion. With the 125 you can learn to double tap with great results. Very little recoil.
Do you have adjustable sights?
Oh PS: In the subject I wrote the Master froze on the trigger. A Comp shooter will know what this means. At our club we have a some World champion shooters. 1 is a man who shot the .22 rifle for 36 years & one day his finger froze on the trigger. He has never been able to shoot since. It's rare but can happen to anyone who shoot a lot. My point was the Glock, you got beaned with a case, & it has caused you a small problem. Someday you will grab the glock & fire away, so don't sweat the small things
Marturo
.One thing I would reccomend, is to get away from the 158 grain Hunting bullets they are hunting bullets for a long barreled 357 Magnum only!
My Wife carries the HS 130 grain 357 Magnum & this will work very well. I believe you would be much better off with the HS 125 grain +P 38 special, that is a good high knock out round even in a short barrel. The + P loads are only 1/2 as much pressure as a 357 Magnum & are quite safe in your Taurus. Speed and light weight bullets are the key to sucess in a 38 Spl. A 158 grain bullet may not expand reliably in a 357 Magnum, much less a 38 Spl. The 158 bullet will go through the target & hurt someone else as it exits with full steam ahead. Go fast go light that's the working combo.
The 357 Mag was developed for the Highway patrol using a special pointed tungstun bullet at 130 grains for defeating the Mafias steel plate reinforced car doors. Later they found the M1 Garand with 30-06 armor piercing rounds worked much better.
Why do they offer a 158 grain load in a 38 spl? I'm glad you asked. Sometimes it hard for some to let the past go. Take the 30-06 rifle the ideal weight is 150 to 165 grains. Every year I see the 180 to 200 grain round nose bullet at the sporting goods store just to hunt Deer with. Too heavy & slow plus it has a rainbow trajectory like a cannon ball. Some hunters believe they will shoot through the brush better than light fast pointed nose bullets. I have read test where the 458 Win Magnum with a 500 grain bullet is deflected as much as a 30-06 180 grainer. So If I build ammo & they want them I'll make them any size they will buy.
As a handloader I can lighten the bullet weight and increase the powder charge, now I have a faster flatter bullet flight with the same if not less pressure. Some will say to use the 110 grain 38 spl but that 125 is a tried & true performer. With the 158 grain load you have to deal with more recoil and less or no expantion. With the 125 you can learn to double tap with great results. Very little recoil.
Do you have adjustable sights?
Oh PS: In the subject I wrote the Master froze on the trigger. A Comp shooter will know what this means. At our club we have a some World champion shooters. 1 is a man who shot the .22 rifle for 36 years & one day his finger froze on the trigger. He has never been able to shoot since. It's rare but can happen to anyone who shoot a lot. My point was the Glock, you got beaned with a case, & it has caused you a small problem. Someday you will grab the glock & fire away, so don't sweat the small things
Marturo
#12
09-26-03, 11:45 PM
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Marturo, thanks for the encouragement! I know I would use the Glock without hesitation when necessary. I thought it was strange that I was scared by the gun that I had mentally told myself was the lesser, and was comfortable with the gun that I had told myself was the big bad one! That taught me very quickly to put away perceptions and learned media hype about guns until I knew for myself what they were like! Anyway, you're probably right, one day I may announce to my husband that his Glock is now mine and prove to him that I can shoot it, thus forcing him to buy another handgun!
I did not realize the 158 grain HS was a hunting load. I do remember them having a strong recoil from the one cylinder firing round but thought the difference was from my becoming used to the lighter handloads. I know I bought them after talking with the dealer about protection while on the road, and went with what he said he would have his wife or daughter carry in the same situation. I'll change to the 125 grain +P, they sound like the better load for my car carry situation. Could the 158 grain damage my gun from the higher pressures and cause it to be less accurate? What does the +P mean?
No, I don't have adjustable sights, wish I did though. If I get another revolver, I will make sure the new one does have them!
I did not realize the 158 grain HS was a hunting load. I do remember them having a strong recoil from the one cylinder firing round but thought the difference was from my becoming used to the lighter handloads. I know I bought them after talking with the dealer about protection while on the road, and went with what he said he would have his wife or daughter carry in the same situation. I'll change to the 125 grain +P, they sound like the better load for my car carry situation. Could the 158 grain damage my gun from the higher pressures and cause it to be less accurate? What does the +P mean?
No, I don't have adjustable sights, wish I did though. If I get another revolver, I will make sure the new one does have them!
#13
09-27-03, 09:32 AM
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Tell him the Glock is yours. I love it :)
Marturo, thanks for the encouragement! I know I would use the Glock without hesitation when necessary. I thought it was strange that I was scared by the gun that I had mentally told myself was the lesser, and was comfortable with the gun that I had told myself was the big bad one! That taught me very quickly to put away perceptions and learned media hype about guns until I knew for myself what they were like! Anyway, you're probably right, one day I may announce to my husband that his Glock is now mine and prove to him that I can shoot it, thus forcing him to buy another handgun! To most Men that's what we live for. Our Wife says go buy another gun whoo Hooo! whens supper? LOL
I did not realize the 158 grain HS was a hunting load. I do remember them having a strong recoil from the one cylinder firing round but thought the difference was from my becoming used to the lighter handloads. I know I bought them after talking with the dealer about protection while on the road, and went with what he said he would have his wife or daughter carry in the same situation. I'll change to the 125 grain +P, they sound like the better load for my car carry situation. Could the 158 grain damage my gun from the higher pressures and cause it to be less accurate? What does the +P mean? No the pressure for the +P is only in the 20,000 psi range while the normal 38 Spl load is around 18,000 psi. The 357 Magnum is around 40,000 psi and the lighter bullets in both will cut percieved recoil a lot.
No, I don't have adjustable sights, wish I did though. If I get another revolver, I will make sure the new one does have them!
I only asked because the lighter bullet will hit lower than the heavy ones. I reccomend a self defence gun without adjustable sights due to them snaging when the gun is drawn. You will see little difference in impact inside 15 yards. Everyone has an opinion & like the gun shop owner he thinks heavy is best but forgets speed is needed to open the hollow point. The + P with a 125 grain will give you much more control the gun & get back on target for a quick second shot.
PS: Sory to hear about the damage to your house. Unfortunatly there is no good answer as to Why? Our Country suffers from a severe lack of parents, raising their kids to respect others.
Marturo
I did not realize the 158 grain HS was a hunting load. I do remember them having a strong recoil from the one cylinder firing round but thought the difference was from my becoming used to the lighter handloads. I know I bought them after talking with the dealer about protection while on the road, and went with what he said he would have his wife or daughter carry in the same situation. I'll change to the 125 grain +P, they sound like the better load for my car carry situation. Could the 158 grain damage my gun from the higher pressures and cause it to be less accurate? What does the +P mean? No the pressure for the +P is only in the 20,000 psi range while the normal 38 Spl load is around 18,000 psi. The 357 Magnum is around 40,000 psi and the lighter bullets in both will cut percieved recoil a lot.
No, I don't have adjustable sights, wish I did though. If I get another revolver, I will make sure the new one does have them!
I only asked because the lighter bullet will hit lower than the heavy ones. I reccomend a self defence gun without adjustable sights due to them snaging when the gun is drawn. You will see little difference in impact inside 15 yards. Everyone has an opinion & like the gun shop owner he thinks heavy is best but forgets speed is needed to open the hollow point. The + P with a 125 grain will give you much more control the gun & get back on target for a quick second shot.
PS: Sory to hear about the damage to your house. Unfortunatly there is no good answer as to Why? Our Country suffers from a severe lack of parents, raising their kids to respect others.
Marturo
#14
09-27-03, 02:34 PM
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Marturo, thanks for your help and explanations! I've definately decided to switch to the 125 grain +P ammo for car carry. I always enjoy claiming my husbands stuff, he has good taste!
I may keep the 158 grain for the house since we have started sleeping down there on the weekend nights and could need something that would go through the exterior walls. It will take us about 3-4 more months to finish it completely and the security system will be more effective then, right now it is primarily for interior zones. We will be adding to it and upgrading it as we progress.
The investigators did not come up with anything and they feel like it was the work of adults. We have temporarily added a motion controlled light (temporarily wired up to an extension cord) that will send most kids running, especially when they hear the dogs start barking...
P.S. Dinner is wherever he decides to take me on the weekends!!LOL
I may keep the 158 grain for the house since we have started sleeping down there on the weekend nights and could need something that would go through the exterior walls. It will take us about 3-4 more months to finish it completely and the security system will be more effective then, right now it is primarily for interior zones. We will be adding to it and upgrading it as we progress.
The investigators did not come up with anything and they feel like it was the work of adults. We have temporarily added a motion controlled light (temporarily wired up to an extension cord) that will send most kids running, especially when they hear the dogs start barking...
P.S. Dinner is wherever he decides to take me on the weekends!!LOL
#15
09-27-03, 08:22 PM
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Keep doing it yourself
Youre Welcome, Sandie
I'm glad I could help you out. You have a plan that sounds good it should come together well. The investigators did not come up with anything, & that's about par for the course.
As a DIYer we must make plans & carry them by ourselves. There's just too many jerks & not enough time in the Law Enforcements budget. Budget or not it seems enough States have reconized our Constituional Right of self defence. After all they have done a poor job of providing safe streets or work places.
Be good, be careful & be prepared to take action, that I'm sure you take great care in being prepared. So long for now, keep practicing as you have, & don't worry about your Taurus it fits the job very well right now.
Marturo
I'm glad I could help you out. You have a plan that sounds good it should come together well. The investigators did not come up with anything, & that's about par for the course.
As a DIYer we must make plans & carry them by ourselves. There's just too many jerks & not enough time in the Law Enforcements budget. Budget or not it seems enough States have reconized our Constituional Right of self defence. After all they have done a poor job of providing safe streets or work places.
Be good, be careful & be prepared to take action, that I'm sure you take great care in being prepared. So long for now, keep practicing as you have, & don't worry about your Taurus it fits the job very well right now.
Marturo
#16
09-29-03, 06:53 AM
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this has been good dialog, i dont have anything to add except to post up what i have in my mags:
hyrdrashocks in my .45's
corbons in my .380 and 9mm
not alot of reasoning behind it, i am just confident in those rounds...they are proven to be effective (especially if you unload the clip on the attacker)
hyrdrashocks in my .45's
corbons in my .380 and 9mm
not alot of reasoning behind it, i am just confident in those rounds...they are proven to be effective (especially if you unload the clip on the attacker)
#17
09-29-03, 06:16 PM
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Just a few quick remarks
Oh course I have done some mods to my Colts. The issue Colt 45acp was designed for round nosed ammo, the 230 grain FMJ hardball.
For some years, I have been carrying the Remington 185 grain +p 45acp. If your Pistol will feed Hollow Points reliably, then have no fear of the +p load, it is safe & exits my bore at 1650 feet per second. The felt recoil is still less than a standard 45acp 230 grain FMJ at 850 FPS.
Most of what Cor-Bon is loaded with non-canaster powder & can gain higher velocity without higher pressure. Cor-Bon is top notch ammo & pricey, so consider that when you shoot an auto cartridge for reliability testing. Well made top noch componets go into their ammo. It has a lot of power that you will feel.
Hydra Shocks are real winners when it come to stopping power.
Marturo
For some years, I have been carrying the Remington 185 grain +p 45acp. If your Pistol will feed Hollow Points reliably, then have no fear of the +p load, it is safe & exits my bore at 1650 feet per second. The felt recoil is still less than a standard 45acp 230 grain FMJ at 850 FPS.
Most of what Cor-Bon is loaded with non-canaster powder & can gain higher velocity without higher pressure. Cor-Bon is top notch ammo & pricey, so consider that when you shoot an auto cartridge for reliability testing. Well made top noch componets go into their ammo. It has a lot of power that you will feel.
Hydra Shocks are real winners when it come to stopping power.
Marturo
#18
10-01-03, 05:40 PM
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I should have added, since the thread is about ammo, that my husband carries 230gr HydraShoks in his .45 (which like you, marturo, is customized.... it went to Wilson Combat) and 115gr CorBons in the Glock. The CorBons have noticably more recoil than standard stuff in the 9mm. What I shot in it was handloads that are of standard velocity.
As an aside, when the Colt was box-stock it wouldn't feed hardball reliably! That is ridiculous! When you spend the price a new Colt commands you should at least get a pistol that works. If he had it to do over again, he says he'd just buy a pistol from Wilson Combat if budget allowed, or a Kimber if it didn't. My husband polished the feed ramp and tuned the extractor and it worked well after that, but he sent it to Wilson's shop for the stuff he didn't feel comfortable doing.
As an aside, when the Colt was box-stock it wouldn't feed hardball reliably! That is ridiculous! When you spend the price a new Colt commands you should at least get a pistol that works. If he had it to do over again, he says he'd just buy a pistol from Wilson Combat if budget allowed, or a Kimber if it didn't. My husband polished the feed ramp and tuned the extractor and it worked well after that, but he sent it to Wilson's shop for the stuff he didn't feel comfortable doing.
#19
10-03-03, 08:57 PM
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Colt has had some problems.
Other than the Comander my Colts are all 1911s not 1911A1s So theres is a heritige of reliability & great metal in those old guns, Colts original workmanship shows.
The Comander had a plastic main spring housing and plastic trigger. So I replaced them with an all steel & the long trigger like the 1911 had before the A1s whent to the short triggers & arched main spring housings.
That is why when I first bought the Colt Officer model, I could not believe they (Colt) could mess up such a fine design. The old Colts are made of forged, not cast metal as the Springfields are today. Yet the M-14s had Forged Recievers & the M1As have Cast Recievers & after 12 years & 3 barrels my M1A is still going strong.
I also believe that Rugers are made with investment castings as well. The new S&W is shed of any UK influance now & may just find it's rightful place in American History. Colt I hear is planning on not making any more AR-15s for the public after the current stocks are gone. I send them an e-mail once in a while asking how is the Col's dream coming? Maybe someday someome at Colt will find that Spirit, to build great guns again.
Marturo
The Comander had a plastic main spring housing and plastic trigger. So I replaced them with an all steel & the long trigger like the 1911 had before the A1s whent to the short triggers & arched main spring housings.
That is why when I first bought the Colt Officer model, I could not believe they (Colt) could mess up such a fine design. The old Colts are made of forged, not cast metal as the Springfields are today. Yet the M-14s had Forged Recievers & the M1As have Cast Recievers & after 12 years & 3 barrels my M1A is still going strong.
I also believe that Rugers are made with investment castings as well. The new S&W is shed of any UK influance now & may just find it's rightful place in American History. Colt I hear is planning on not making any more AR-15s for the public after the current stocks are gone. I send them an e-mail once in a while asking how is the Col's dream coming? Maybe someday someome at Colt will find that Spirit, to build great guns again.
Marturo
#20
10-06-03, 06:17 AM
Back on bullets. Twenty some odd years ago, deer hunting down on the old farm. One of the guys bumped his scope and wanted to check it out. We set up a log about 30 in across by 30 in long out in the garden (about 50 yards), and stapled on a paper target. (This log weighed about as much as I did.) Once the scope was checked, everybody took turns and shot that log with 308's, 30-06's, 7 & 8 mags, 270's, 243's, 303 british and on and on. Watching from the side, I noticed a small puff of sawdust coming from the target at each hit, but the log never moved.
Someone asked me to try my shotgun on it (I used to hunt with 1 oz slugs). That log scooted back 6 inches and rocked up about 45 degrees. We all just looked at one another, put our guns up, and had some more coffee.
Someone asked me to try my shotgun on it (I used to hunt with 1 oz slugs). That log scooted back 6 inches and rocked up about 45 degrees. We all just looked at one another, put our guns up, and had some more coffee.
#21
10-13-03, 08:29 PM
lawyer dude?
I read the initial conversation from Skip and he refer to ammo, lawyer and law. I have .45 ACP hallow points and reside in the Socialist state Of California. If a home invader enters, the only law I be concern about is the law of survival. I worry about the other law later, cause the otherlaw is simply not protecting me at the moment of the home invasion by a criminal. About what bullet is best for defense. It will be the bullet that you employ effectively by hitting the target accuratly in a highly dynamic and actively stressful situation. So if you are more effective with a 22 then with a 45, then that's the best bullet to use for defense. To achieve this is simple.
PRACTICE,
PRACTICE
and PRACTICE.......
Chico
PRACTICE,
PRACTICE
and PRACTICE.......
Chico
#22
10-13-03, 10:06 PM
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Lawyers & Bullets.
Hi Chico Welcome to DIYs Shooting Range 
There has only been one no no, when it comes to the type of round/Cartridge you may catch some flack over in Court. This may be old news but here's why you should use Factory loads.
Back when Hollow Points were fairly new to the market, & only Handloaders could make them. Defence Lawyers for the Home invader, used to impassion a Jurry that you( The good guy) had been down in your Labatory of Death, & made a Man killer load with a hollow point.
Most shops then had round noised lead & and old carry over form the Military about Dum Dum bullets, a FMJ bullet with it's point filed away. War had rules & so it seemed that self defense had rules also. Only no one told the bad guy this.
Today we realy have bullets that fired out of a short hand gun, will expand & send hundreds of secondary pieces flying around inside the bad guy. Even the Drs are saying that many factory rounds, not hand loads, we can't buy the special factory bullets to load. It seems that the factorys self defence rounds are so tramatic, that the bad guy is very often DOA with one or 2 shots.
This has taken much of the shock out of the lawyers working a Jury for Dr Jeckell, & the man killer bullet hand loaders. With a load like Remingtons 45acp 185 grain Hollow point + Ps who needs a hand load? Safe the reloads fror practice, & use the heavy hitting super expanding Factory loads, for social intercourse.
As for the .22 rimfire, how about Agulias .22 long rifle with a solid round nosed 60 grain bullet? In a folding stocked 10/22 & with 30 round Mag, this has to be seen what a water melon looks like after only 15 hits. Some .22s are much better than others.
You mentioned the 45acp. How many I wonder, know that most all the Countries in South America, will only let Police & Military have a handgun chambered for the bigger 45 acp, the people can only have a 38 special or .22. Yet they(Police & Military) get the big 45 acps with Hollow points. I wonder why that is?
Marturo
Gun Control is hitting your mark, again & again
There has only been one no no, when it comes to the type of round/Cartridge you may catch some flack over in Court. This may be old news but here's why you should use Factory loads.
Back when Hollow Points were fairly new to the market, & only Handloaders could make them. Defence Lawyers for the Home invader, used to impassion a Jurry that you( The good guy) had been down in your Labatory of Death, & made a Man killer load with a hollow point.
Most shops then had round noised lead & and old carry over form the Military about Dum Dum bullets, a FMJ bullet with it's point filed away. War had rules & so it seemed that self defense had rules also. Only no one told the bad guy this.
Today we realy have bullets that fired out of a short hand gun, will expand & send hundreds of secondary pieces flying around inside the bad guy. Even the Drs are saying that many factory rounds, not hand loads, we can't buy the special factory bullets to load. It seems that the factorys self defence rounds are so tramatic, that the bad guy is very often DOA with one or 2 shots.
This has taken much of the shock out of the lawyers working a Jury for Dr Jeckell, & the man killer bullet hand loaders. With a load like Remingtons 45acp 185 grain Hollow point + Ps who needs a hand load? Safe the reloads fror practice, & use the heavy hitting super expanding Factory loads, for social intercourse.
As for the .22 rimfire, how about Agulias .22 long rifle with a solid round nosed 60 grain bullet? In a folding stocked 10/22 & with 30 round Mag, this has to be seen what a water melon looks like after only 15 hits. Some .22s are much better than others.
You mentioned the 45acp. How many I wonder, know that most all the Countries in South America, will only let Police & Military have a handgun chambered for the bigger 45 acp, the people can only have a 38 special or .22. Yet they(Police & Military) get the big 45 acps with Hollow points. I wonder why that is?
Marturo
Gun Control is hitting your mark, again & again
#23
05-28-05, 08:11 PM
Loads that won't pass through walls?
Hey all, thanks for all the good information. Between this and the thread for the best defense weapon I've already learned a lot!
I just bought my fist handgun (.40 Baby Eagle) and am trying to decide on the best home defense ammunition to use. I don't have my concealed carry permit yet so being out on the street is not an issue. What I'm wondering about is the best load for living in an apartment.
Obviously living in a sardeen can, like most Dallas apartment communities, fills me with a pretty serious worry of my bullet going astray and hitting some poor kid in the next apartment over. Any reccommendations for a good .40 S&W round that isn't going to jump into someone else's bedroom but is still going to solve any intruder problems?
Thanks again.
I just bought my fist handgun (.40 Baby Eagle) and am trying to decide on the best home defense ammunition to use. I don't have my concealed carry permit yet so being out on the street is not an issue. What I'm wondering about is the best load for living in an apartment.
Obviously living in a sardeen can, like most Dallas apartment communities, fills me with a pretty serious worry of my bullet going astray and hitting some poor kid in the next apartment over. Any reccommendations for a good .40 S&W round that isn't going to jump into someone else's bedroom but is still going to solve any intruder problems?
Thanks again.
#24
06-03-05, 05:25 PM
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Boy, a .40 is a fast moving bullet for apartment living. I don't know of a .40 bullet that will NOT hit the kids in the next apartment. Maybe a Glasier??? To prevent hitting the neighbors I would recommend a lot of range practice to make sure you hit your intended target square in the chest.
Personally I've never been very good with a .40. I think it's a great cartridge and I've tried and tried but I'm just not as good with a .40 as I am with a 9mm or .45.
Personally I've never been very good with a .40. I think it's a great cartridge and I've tried and tried but I'm just not as good with a .40 as I am with a 9mm or .45.
#25
07-03-05, 08:03 AM
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Just personal thoughts
I just discovered this topic, and while reading, wanted to add my 2 cents worth. As a former small armes instructor in the Military, I tend to agree with the concept of "Large and Slow" is best in a self defense situation. I have a 45 Sig, and fortunately have never had to use it. (Florida is really strict with all the "Game Preserve" areas. And in the Keys, there are no ranges either.) Anyway, I am not concerned with which type of bullet is best. I also believe the one that is best, is the one that does the job for you.
As far as the discussion on technique is concerned, the best way to quickly aim a gun that I have found is using the Israily method of pointing with your index finger, and using your middle finger for trigger pull. Their thoery is, if you can point directly at something, you can hit it. Simple.
But like I say, this is just my thoughts on this, and should not be used if you are uncomfortable with anything I just said. Bottom line in my book is safety. (And boy was that drilled into me.)
cuedude
As far as the discussion on technique is concerned, the best way to quickly aim a gun that I have found is using the Israily method of pointing with your index finger, and using your middle finger for trigger pull. Their thoery is, if you can point directly at something, you can hit it. Simple.
But like I say, this is just my thoughts on this, and should not be used if you are uncomfortable with anything I just said. Bottom line in my book is safety. (And boy was that drilled into me.)
cuedude
#26
07-05-05, 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by NeoPoe
Obviously living in a sardeen can, like most Dallas apartment communities, fills me with a pretty serious worry of my bullet going astray and hitting some poor kid in the next apartment over. Any reccommendations for a good .40 S&W round that isn't going to jump into someone else's bedroom but is still going to solve any intruder problems?
That said, to reduce the likelihood, I depend on a 12 guage shotgun for indoor security and historically, the shotgun has been proven to be very good about keeping rounds from flying through walls and hitting bystanders.....and more importantly....up close it's one of the most effective manstoppers made.
As for .40 ammo? Federal Hydrashocks work, they've been proven to work, and they are consistent. Stick with them, don't get fancy or buy gimmick ammo.
#27
11-26-05, 12:44 AM
Just got here
I just got here and I suppose this is old news but I would have to second the idea of the shotgun for home defence. NOTHING has the knock down of a shotgun at close range and at the same time with say a magnum load of #2 or #4 you dont have much concern about over penetration. No mater what your shooting above a weak BB gun, the 2 layers of drywall that seperate most appartments isnt likely to stop the projectile but at least with shot it will most likely slow it to a degree that it will be nonleathal and likely to a point of causeing little more than a nasty welp, but hit a person directly with it and you turn a big area to burger, even if it dosnt penetrate it would at the very least be like smacking them in the chest with a sledge hammer and the shock alone has a good chance of kiling them.
