9mm CARBINES
#1
09-24-12, 08:22 PM
9mm CARBINES
Folks;
Recently I have started to look around for a 9 mm carbine for PD and HD.
I have decided on this because of the availablity of 9mm and other possessions.
I have did some looking at the Marlin 9mm and the Hi-Standard. Anyone have any opinions on the H-S? It looks like the Marlin "Campgun" will be a no go because no one is letting them go and they were discontinued. (How I kick myself when I could have had it dirt cheap years ago!)
I was also looking at a 5.62 anyideas/opinions on a good one that is reasonable? Have seen some for anywhere from 400- to 700 USD.
Any input appreciated.
Recently I have started to look around for a 9 mm carbine for PD and HD.
I have decided on this because of the availablity of 9mm and other possessions.
I have did some looking at the Marlin 9mm and the Hi-Standard. Anyone have any opinions on the H-S? It looks like the Marlin "Campgun" will be a no go because no one is letting them go and they were discontinued. (How I kick myself when I could have had it dirt cheap years ago!)
I was also looking at a 5.62 anyideas/opinions on a good one that is reasonable? Have seen some for anywhere from 400- to 700 USD.
Any input appreciated.
#2
09-25-12, 05:31 AM
Group Moderator
Personally I like the Beretta CX-4 Storm. It's not cheap and with it's fixed sight guards it can be annoying to mount some optics but for me it points very naturally so sights are almost optional at close range. I have no experience with the other's you mentioned. I don't think Hi-Standard makes a 9mm carbine. Could it be Hi-Point? They have a 9mm carbine.
For a .223 the Ruger Mini-14 is a good choice and I would pick it over a very inexpensive AR type. It's a solid gun that's been around for a long time and has a very proven track record. In basic form it's a good gun for the price and it has many aftermarket options available to spruce it up or modify it in the future.
Cartridge choice & saftety:
I think the 9mm in a carbine is a very effective defense weapon. The big drawback is over penetration if you can believe it. 9mm or any handgun round will easily penetrate non-masonry walls possibly endangering persons in other rooms or your neighbors. Pistol rounds just don't contain enough energy to rip the bullet apart when they hit something so you get a good size lump of lead chugging right on through most things (walls, furniture...). The tests I've seen online and duplicated at home show that 9mm & .40 S&W hollow points easily penetrate three sheet rock walls and keep on going.
The .223/5.56 with the proper bullets has been repeatedly shown to be much better at not shooting through walls. A very fast moving, fast spinning, thin skinned bullet tears itself to tiny bits when it hits something. So, when a missed shot hits a sheet rock wall only small fragments exit the back side which very quickly loose energy and often cannot penetrate a second wall. Still, that little bullet contains about 3 times the energy of a 9mm pistol round so it is very capable for defense making a real mess instantly dumping it's energy. And, since it's the most popular caliber used in police & SWAT rifles there are many very well tested ammunitions available. Hornady has an entire line of ammo (TAP) specifically for this purpose so you can choose the level of penetration and over penetration safety you want.
For a .223 the Ruger Mini-14 is a good choice and I would pick it over a very inexpensive AR type. It's a solid gun that's been around for a long time and has a very proven track record. In basic form it's a good gun for the price and it has many aftermarket options available to spruce it up or modify it in the future.
Cartridge choice & saftety:
I think the 9mm in a carbine is a very effective defense weapon. The big drawback is over penetration if you can believe it. 9mm or any handgun round will easily penetrate non-masonry walls possibly endangering persons in other rooms or your neighbors. Pistol rounds just don't contain enough energy to rip the bullet apart when they hit something so you get a good size lump of lead chugging right on through most things (walls, furniture...). The tests I've seen online and duplicated at home show that 9mm & .40 S&W hollow points easily penetrate three sheet rock walls and keep on going.
The .223/5.56 with the proper bullets has been repeatedly shown to be much better at not shooting through walls. A very fast moving, fast spinning, thin skinned bullet tears itself to tiny bits when it hits something. So, when a missed shot hits a sheet rock wall only small fragments exit the back side which very quickly loose energy and often cannot penetrate a second wall. Still, that little bullet contains about 3 times the energy of a 9mm pistol round so it is very capable for defense making a real mess instantly dumping it's energy. And, since it's the most popular caliber used in police & SWAT rifles there are many very well tested ammunitions available. Hornady has an entire line of ammo (TAP) specifically for this purpose so you can choose the level of penetration and over penetration safety you want.
#3
09-25-12, 06:05 AM
Pilot dane
Glad you pointed out the "Hi-"s. I guess that I was thinking one thing and yet typed something else. You are right, I did want to inquire about the "Hi-Point" and NOT the "Hi-Standard".
I figured on the Ruger as it always had a solid name, but lately all I see are the Bushmaster's. Any opinions on the different mods of them?
I figured on the Ruger as it always had a solid name, but lately all I see are the Bushmaster's. Any opinions on the different mods of them?
#5
09-25-12, 09:19 AM
Group Moderator
By Bushmaster I assume you mean an AR platform rifle.
I think both the Mini-14 and AR type can be good guns. I tend to think the Mini-14 is a bit more idiot proof in that you can go buy one and it's pretty much ready to go and of a known quality. Min-14's are Ruger, made to Ruger's quality standards. There seems to be real variation in the quality of AR's since everyone and their brother makes an AR clone. Externally the AR's all may look very similar but they vary considerably.
Mini-14 Pro's
generally less expensive
sights are generally closer to the barrel's bore (sights are not as high up above the barrel)
I think the Mini-14 locks up more simply and reliably
AR Pro's
very wide variety of after market parts available
magazines of every size, flavor & color are readily available
can be extremely accurate
---
As for ease of maintenance and reliability I tend towards the 9mm carbine and their simple blow back operation. My Beretta CX-4 literally goes years between cleanings. It has always worked no matter what ammo or how dirty the gun is. AR's are notorious for requiring proper cleaning, feeding and maintenance. I think the Mini-14 falls somewhere in between the two. It's still gas operated but the bolt lock up seems less finicky to me.
I think both the Mini-14 and AR type can be good guns. I tend to think the Mini-14 is a bit more idiot proof in that you can go buy one and it's pretty much ready to go and of a known quality. Min-14's are Ruger, made to Ruger's quality standards. There seems to be real variation in the quality of AR's since everyone and their brother makes an AR clone. Externally the AR's all may look very similar but they vary considerably.
Mini-14 Pro's
generally less expensive
sights are generally closer to the barrel's bore (sights are not as high up above the barrel)
I think the Mini-14 locks up more simply and reliably
AR Pro's
very wide variety of after market parts available
magazines of every size, flavor & color are readily available
can be extremely accurate
---
As for ease of maintenance and reliability I tend towards the 9mm carbine and their simple blow back operation. My Beretta CX-4 literally goes years between cleanings. It has always worked no matter what ammo or how dirty the gun is. AR's are notorious for requiring proper cleaning, feeding and maintenance. I think the Mini-14 falls somewhere in between the two. It's still gas operated but the bolt lock up seems less finicky to me.
#6
10-15-12, 09:04 AM
The Marlins needed repairs fairly often. Hi-Points are Ok but crude and clunky. And the Berettas are expensive. I'd much prefer an AR or Mini-14 to any 9mm. The 9mm carbines were just a stop-gap for PDs that were afraid of public reaction to evil looking assault rifles. But since they are the most popular type of sporting and target rifle in the USA today that's no longer a concern.
ARs are just as reliable as anything else except that it had a bad start thanks to the Army 45 years ago, and later too many people got in to building, modifying and making parts, turning out some problem children. This wont be a problem with the bigger manufacturers like DPMS, Colt, Sig, and Bushmaster has their recent relocation problems fixed by now.
One of the "Big Box" stores has the decent basic DPMS AR Sportical model for $597 - no forward assist (not a loss), extruded alloy upper instead of cast, flat top, no chrome in the barrel, 6 position buttstock and insulated handguards. I'd prefer chrome but I can't afford to shoot enough thousands of rounds to wear out the barrel anyway, and always clean and grease the bore after shooting, so it really isn't a big deal.
Ruger Minis start around the same and the new 580 series are a lot better than their usually inaccurate predecessors. But good magazines for them are expensive and parts and accessories limited. Stuff for ARs is cheap and plentiful.
ARs are just as reliable as anything else except that it had a bad start thanks to the Army 45 years ago, and later too many people got in to building, modifying and making parts, turning out some problem children. This wont be a problem with the bigger manufacturers like DPMS, Colt, Sig, and Bushmaster has their recent relocation problems fixed by now.
One of the "Big Box" stores has the decent basic DPMS AR Sportical model for $597 - no forward assist (not a loss), extruded alloy upper instead of cast, flat top, no chrome in the barrel, 6 position buttstock and insulated handguards. I'd prefer chrome but I can't afford to shoot enough thousands of rounds to wear out the barrel anyway, and always clean and grease the bore after shooting, so it really isn't a big deal.
Ruger Minis start around the same and the new 580 series are a lot better than their usually inaccurate predecessors. But good magazines for them are expensive and parts and accessories limited. Stuff for ARs is cheap and plentiful.
#7
10-27-12, 06:39 PM
Update;
looked around at a lot of different 9mm carbines and didn't like what I saw. The high ends were just that HIGH end. The others in MHO were just a piece of iron put together to sell.
Went for a windham weapondry .223/5.56 and awaiting it now.
Anybody have some ideas on magazines. Have heard that some AM mags don't work so good even if advertised as "milspec"
Went for a windham weapondry .223/5.56 and awaiting it now.
Anybody have some ideas on magazines. Have heard that some AM mags don't work so good even if advertised as "milspec"
#8
10-28-12, 05:47 AM
Group Moderator
The polymer PMags have worked well for me. Just remember to use the provided cap if storing them loaded long term to prevent deformation of the feed lips. I also like D&H magainzes and I think most of mine have the gray Magpul follower. I've had some loaded for years and they still function without any problems. I generally use the 10 round ones when hunting since they don't protrude from the gun much.
I really like the .223/5.56 cartridge. There is such a variety of bullets available that you have a lot of options from highly frangible varmint rounds to solid copper bullets that can drive deep through almost anything.
I really like the .223/5.56 cartridge. There is such a variety of bullets available that you have a lot of options from highly frangible varmint rounds to solid copper bullets that can drive deep through almost anything.
