Full auto AR-15

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  #1  
Old 12-04-15, 05:06 PM
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Full auto AR-15

This is related to the "talking heads" thread in the chat forum but I didn't want to turn that into a fire arms debate.

I saw another talking head on Fox today. He was talking about the AR-15 semi automatic rifle that "the manufacturer designed" so that it could be converted into a full automatic "assault rifle" by using a bullet point to push a button(???) on the rifle. WTF? Is that true 'cause it sounded like BS.

I don't know jack about the AR-15 or the M-16 for that matter. I have never fired either one. My last rifle qual was the M-14 (a most excellent weapon IMO)but I figured somebody here would know the answer.
 
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Old 12-04-15, 06:23 PM
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Concerning the AR-15 I only know what I have read over the years but yes, the ability to convert a civilian model to full automatic operation by " using a bullet point to push a button" is utter BS. No rifle sold to the general public in the US is capable of firing in a full automatic mode and federal law specifically prohibits ownership of full automatic weapons by any individual with very few exceptions. Full automatic weapons are available to bona-fide law enforcement (read, governmental) agencies and the military under strictly controlled regulations.

Now all that does not mean that a civilian model of an AR-15 cannot be UNLAWFULLY converted to full automatic operation, but to do so would require parts that are prohibited to the general populace.
 
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Old 12-05-15, 04:23 AM
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Although it is not a true fully automatic conversion, Bump Fire produces a stock that can be fitted to the AR15 that allows an almost identical effect. I don't recommend this product in any way, but the question was asked.....https://www.bumpfiresystems.com/product/ar15-bfsystem/
 
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Old 12-05-15, 04:38 AM
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Went to Nam in 65 and were the first unit with the new M16 (101 airborne) I remember a selector switch that went from single shot to full auto. But it has been removed from civilian models I have heard. Have not touched one in over 50 years.
 
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Old 12-05-15, 06:09 AM
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It may have been later versions, but some had single, 3 shot burst, and full auto. Yes, the selector switch is basically a "safety" on today's versions of the AR models.
 
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Old 12-05-15, 08:07 AM
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AFAIK, and I haven't picked one up in almost twenty years, the M-16A2 (if that's the current model) has a selector that offers safe, single, and 3 round burst. The A1 model (Vietnam era) was selectable to full auto with no 3 round burst position.
The only thing I remember you can do with the point of a round was to push out one of the take-down pins for disassembly.
 
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Old 12-05-15, 08:19 AM
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I believe you are right, John. The years fog memory a little. I think most felt the fully automatic feature really wasted more ammo than the 3 shot burst did, and the latter was just as effective.
 
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Old 12-05-15, 01:44 PM
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Yeah, I always assumed it was as much an ammo-saving feature as anything else. Nothing like emptying a 20 round magazine in under 3 seconds, but not going to hit much.
 
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Old 12-05-15, 02:08 PM
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The A1 model (Vietnam era) was selectable to full auto with no 3 round burst position.
The A1 was the later Vietnam era version, the original Vietnam era M16s didn't have the forward assist. Shooting 3 round bursts was the preferred method with the A1, but in those days there were a lot of guys who couldn't count to 3.

Nothing like emptying a 20 round magazine in under 3 seconds, but not going to hit much.
3 or 4 magazines in succession would leave the barrel glowing and another 1 or 2 would probably allow the barrel to be bent.
 
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Old 12-05-15, 02:50 PM
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That's what gets me about hollywood. They'll fire more rounds than the clip will hold .... continuously only stopping after a 100 rounds or so before reloading but then isn't hollywood where the vast majority of folks get all there automatic or semi-automatic weapon info
 
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Old 12-06-15, 07:59 AM
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I had limited exposure to the -A1 in late 1972. Recruits were still toting and qualifying with the M-14 except when we went up the road to Camp Lejeune for ITR. We turned in our M-14s at the Parris Island armory and drew M-16's @ Lejeune (actually Geiger, I think) for the stay there. My first thought was, Gee, why can't I have one of these back at PI instead of that heavy @ss M-14!!!. Never had to qual with the A1, thankfully, because my early aviation assignments were exempt due to non-availability of ranges. Shot expert twice with the A2 before being permanently exempted due to my rank (Gunny's and above only shoot the pistol for qual; too old to see a target at 500 yards ).

Hollywoood. What can I say. Not to go off on a tangent, but one of the better technically-advised shows is NCIS. They do pretty well with authenticity, proper wear of uniforms, military procedures, etc. I do love it when they show a scene of some characters riding on a C-130 and carrying on a conversation without shouting.
 
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Old 12-06-15, 09:03 AM
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but one of the better technically-advised shows is NCIS
NCIS has a retired Marine on staff as an advisor, probably not a bad gig.

I also remember the M-16A2 as not being full auto, but I could live with it. Spray and pray was not the ideal approach.
 
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Old 12-06-15, 09:06 AM
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To the casual observer the M16 and the AR15 appear quite similar. Upon close inspection there is quite a few different parts that are required for full auto operation. These include:

3rd pin milled into the lower receiver
Different safety
Addition of the auto sear
Different hammer
Different bolt carrier group

This video pretty much covers it all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtGZBL5BmZE
 
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Old 12-06-15, 09:10 AM
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M16/AR15's are much better then early versions. Here is a melt down video of an M16. Count the rounds before it fails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSizVpfqFtw
 
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Old 12-06-15, 03:41 PM
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Great video Tolyn. several minutes in I could see the barrel glow. However, even after what must have been a dozen or more mags (I didn't count) it was still putting rounds downrange.
 
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Old 12-06-15, 04:40 PM
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That was some serious abuse. I liked the part where the flash suppressor blew right off the barrel. Yikes.
 
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Old 12-06-15, 05:10 PM
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Funny thing is I have had quite a few people who ask me if I ever wanted to convert mine to full auto. My standard response is "That would be fun, but I would hate to have to pay to feed it." .223/5.56 is still not a cheap as it once was.
 
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Old 12-07-15, 05:12 AM
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I figure the guy in the video will just reload his own.
 
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Old 12-07-15, 07:40 AM
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@OP: The gun forums are having a field day with that ridiculous bit of reporting.
To legally own a full-auto rifle you need a Class III license. The requirements are many, the cost high & the waiting period is very long. NO WAY any gun manufacturer would circumvent the regulations by making it easy for John Q. to activate the "fun switch" so easily.

There are a couple take-down pins on an AR that are pushed out by a bullet point for field cleaning but they only separate the upper receiver from the lower and have nothing to do with the trigger or bolt.

Makes one wonder if these reporters can say whatever they wish with no oversight & fact checking. I can't tell if ignorance or agenda was the reason for such a stupid claim.
 
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Old 12-07-15, 01:17 PM
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Makes one wonder if these reporters can say whatever they wish with no oversight & fact checking.
Pretty much.

I can't tell if ignorance or agenda was the reason for such a stupid claim.
I'd say a combination of both.
 
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Old 12-07-15, 06:15 PM
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I figure the guy in the video will just reload his own.
He was shooting steel cased ammo. I do not think it can be reloaded with standard dies/reloading tools.
 
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Old 12-08-15, 08:58 AM
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It's interesting to note in the video the amount of time it took the guy to replace an expended magazine. He certainly wasn't hurrying and it probably took only a couple of seconds to swap them. I thought that shot some serious holes in the "ban large capacity magazines" argument.
 
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Old 12-08-15, 02:19 PM
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I thought that shot some serious holes in the "ban large capacity magazines" argument.
The anti-gun lobby will use any excuse, no matter how lame or how untrue, to further their agenda.
 
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Old 12-16-15, 10:41 PM
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cwbuff, there obviously ain't a dern thing wrong with your BS detector.

What that numbskull was talking about is the Kalifornia bullet button. Kalifornia was not satisfied simply mandating a magazine of no more than 10 rounds capacity, so all ARs sold there also have to have a neutered magazine release button. Once inserted, the magazine is not supposed to be able to be released without the aid of a small, pointy, purpose-built tool.

Except that some people found it didn't take a special tool at all. If you were shooting cartridges with certain highly-pointed OTM bullets, such as 75-gr Hornady TAP or Black Hills Mk262, the tip of the bullet itself was slim enough to extend through the small opening and activate the mag release. And some really enterprising folks made a magnetic anti-bullet button button that could be stuck onto the Kalifornia bullet button, after which the mag release would operate exactly how Stoner had intended, for as long as the magnet remains in place.

Naturally, that put the Kalifornian's panties in a wad, so now they want to ban all Evil Black Rifles with detachable magazines. But as soon as they figure out how fast you can put rounds downrange from an M1 Garand with 8-round stripper clips, they'll realize they've fired another blank.


And no, fully-automatic ARs (or any other rifle) are not "licensed," there's no such thing as a Class 3 license or a Class 3 firearm. Class 3 refers to the Special Occupation Tax (SOT) that manufacturers of certain firearms and firearm components have to pay. Manufacturers of fully-automatic weapons, short-barreled rifles, short-barreled shotguns, destructive devices and suppressors have to pay a Class 3 SOT for the privilege of staying in business. The end user pays it but it's incorporated into the retail price. Just like the Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax imposed on every firearm and firearm cartridge sold, if you didn't know the law, there's be no indication you were being gouged by the Feds.


These firearms are properly called "Title II" weapons (because that's the section of the US Code that regulates them) or "NFA" devices, because they first were regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934. That act imposed a $200 tax on the purchase of such devices. Remember that 1934 was during The Great Depression, and at that time they thought a $200 tax would forever keep them out of the reach of Joe Sixpack. Comes to about $3500 in 2015 dollars, adjusted for inflation. And wonder of wonders, the cost has yet to go up.

The $200 you pay when you send in your Form 4 to the BATF for approval (or a Form 1, in the case of a weapon or device you yourself are making) is a tax. What you receive in return is a tax stamp, not unlike what you'd find on a bottle of liquor or a pack of cigarettes (ergo, Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms). You receive a stamp as proof you've paid the tax. And the stamp comes affixed to a letter bearing all the pertinent identifying details of the device for which the tax has been paid.


If all you're going to do is monkey with the original parts to convert the weapon to full auto, the best you can hope for is to gimmick the disconnector so the hammer follows the BCG back into battery. Which, if your primers are soft enough, might (underscore might) produce slam fires. Which, once started, might continue, even after you've released the trigger, until the magazine runs dry. But if you've started out with a semi-auto lower receiver, that's as close to a full-auto conversion as you're likely to get unless you install either a Drop-In Auto Sear (DIAS) or a Lightning-Link.

Continued manufacture of both the DIAS and the Lightning-Link were outlawed by the 1986 Firearm Owner's Protection Act. Which, despite it's altruistic-sounding title, did nothing to protect firearms owners. All it did was further restrict what devices could lawfully be manufactured, and declared all full-auto weapons manufactured on or after the day the bill passed as non-transferable.

Which means that all full-auto weapons that legally can be sold between civilian-types today, with the blessing of the BATF, will have been manufactured before that date in 1986. Which means the pool of available transferable weapons has been static, but the number of prospective buyers continues to increase. Which is why you can buy a brand-new FN AR-15 for less than $1500, but a transferable M-16 rifle in decent condition will cost you more than 10x that much.


Some Lightning-Links and DIASs were registered with the BATF before the 1986 ban and are still "transferable," but their collector's status prevents them being a cheap way to get a full auto AR. Also the Lightning-Link and the DIAS are like a suppressor, they are serialized and BATF considers the device to be "a firearm" whether there is a gun attached to it or not.


So that clown apparently was conflating the Kalifornia bullet button screw-up with full-auto operation, which obviously have nothing in common. He's just another metrosexual hoplophobe looking for some positive reinforcement of his asinine world view from his hoplophobe peeps.
 
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Old 12-17-15, 08:02 AM
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I had to look up "hoplophobe"
(noun) : The irrational fear of weapons. From greek hoplon, "weapon".


"The hoplophobic nature of the American anti-gun movement makes their arguments completely preposterous." óJeff Cooper, 1962
1962! Not much has changed...
 
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Old 05-20-16, 12:35 AM
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The other shoe has dropped and Kalifornia has managed to pass a bill banning the so-called bullet button, and also (reportedly) will be requiring that magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds be surrendered to the state. Haven't read the law but the 'surrender' bit is true, their elected legislators are not only showing wanton disdain for the 2nd Amendment but also for the 4th and 5th as well.

What I'm reading doesn't make it clear how or even if ARs can be brought into compliance. Good thing FN now sells a semi-automatic version of their belt-fed 5.56 NATO M-249 SAW to civilians. We don' need no stinkin' magazines.

Governor Moonbeam vetoed a similar bill they passed in 2013 because he thought it was too overreaching. But if they don't get them all this time, they'll just rewrite it and try it again, and again, until the only people in Kalifornia with any guns left will be Crips, Bloods, Zetas, and the security team who guard Rosie O'Donnell's snack food stash.
 
 

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