fireplace soot discussion


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Old 12-09-03, 06:45 PM
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Soot from lp gas fireplace?

I have never seen the inside of a non-vented gas fireplace. What prevents them from producing soot? Can they go out of adjustment and smoke? And if they do, is it logical to assUme that the byproducts would all be vented into the living space? I have a friend who called me and described all the places he found a black film. They are all on the first floor where the LP gas fireplace is located and none in the basement where the oil burner is located.

Ken
 
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Old 12-10-03, 12:59 AM
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Soot from unvented fireplace

Any fire what ever it burns can product soot if it's does not get enough air for proper combustion.
In an unvented gas fire the things to look for are a build up of dust (we gas fitters call it lint) in the burner air ports and at the venturi .
Another point is is the house shut up so tight that there is not enough air getting in to the burner.
Over here the standard insist that there is openings to the outside at lo level and at hi level to bring in fresh air for the burner on unvented appliances.
Watch for kitchen stove extract hoods which 'suck' out from the home. In these cases extra fresh air venting is needed to compensate for this.
If the appliance is producing soot then there is every chance it is also producting CO. I don't need to say how dangerous that is.
 
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Old 12-10-03, 01:09 AM
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The byproducts of natural gas combustion are mainly water vapor and carbon dioxide with trace amount of carbon monoxide except during poor combustion where the CO level can increase to dangerous levels.

The soot is actually matter such as dust that is burnt during combustion and then sticks to the water vapor. Soot may indicate poor combustion but trace amount will be produced if the air contains high levels of dust even if combustion is occurring normally.
 
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Old 12-10-03, 01:27 AM
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Soot

I've seen quite a few gas appliance producing soot. And it wasn't just dust doing it.
Typical example is some one puts a hob in the kitchen run on a LPG bottle. then rings me up to say it's sooting the bottom of the pans. Straight away I know it has Natural gas injectors in it so I pop around get them to give me the LP injectors from the plastic bag that came with the hob and change the injectors to the smaller LP injectors and hey presto no more black pots & pans. And it's not because of a hot flame and cold pot either.
I charge them $40 bucks for 10 mins work. lol.
I've also seen boilers and furnaces sooting up too because of insufficent air too. Don't worry insufficent air will certainly produce soot or too much gas (same thing)
 
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Old 12-10-03, 01:40 AM
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Can you explain why? I'd be interested in knowing the reason. What are the soot particles made of and how are they created due to insufficient air?
 
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Old 12-10-03, 05:36 AM
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I can see the basis for RAV12s question but anyone who has ever lit an oxy/acetylene torch can probably attest to the fact that gas combustion can cause soot. Those little soot devils will fly around the shop for half an hour if you don't light that torch up correctly. I was assuming that LP gas could do the same but wanted input from some of those of you who have more experience with gas appliances.
 
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Old 12-10-03, 07:38 AM
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Lightbulb Soot

All that has been said here sounds right. What has been missed I think
Is what the gas W/C is set at on all of the units. Also if its cold out or not. By that I mean I have had to work on burners that made soot When it got real cold out and the W/C would go down on the main NAT gas line because of the big demand. I have seen Nat gas that was set at 5.5" or 6." drop down to 3.5." Have had some gas valves that use the gas to help open them selfs and when the W/C got low they could not open

Then on LP it gets to cold out and the Lp cant burn off in the tank as fast to keep the W/C up. Thats like most of the Lp guys I know and myself. In summer will set the regulator for the Lp to about 13" W/C Come the winter and it will be right on the money at 11"W/C and burn right with no soot

Narroc: When you take a Nat gas unit and put a Lp kit in with the LP orifice dont you have to block out the pressure regulator in the gas valve if it has one?
Now with all that snow up there in the far north Dont let it cover the outdoor Gas regulator vent it can and will shut the gas off on you slow like sometimes

Just my .02 cents here ED
 
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Old 12-10-03, 08:52 AM
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I agree that poor combustion does produce excess soot and as Kfield says a good example is a Oxyfuel gas torch. If you shut the oxygen off the flame burns with lots of soot as I've seen with my own torch. I've just never found a good explanation for the reason why this ocurrs and I wondered if anyone here knows.
 
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Old 12-10-03, 09:13 AM
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The soot could possibly be coming from scented candles.
 
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Old 12-10-03, 10:39 AM
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Exclamation scoot

I think you will find that if you turn up the acetylene all the way that you wont get soot from the flame. Also you want to turn off the acetylene first all the time then the OX. If you dont and turn off the OX first then the acetylene it will burn down in the tip and get soot inside the tip on you. ED
 
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Old 12-10-03, 12:44 PM
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Talking Scented Candles

Interesting theory!!

 
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Old 12-10-03, 01:00 PM
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I was told that the problem stemmed from a problem with the fireplace. The house is an old farm house and is not too tight so available combustion air is not a problem. I don't yet know how old the unit is or exactly what the problem is but I will try to find out. Once I determined that it was not the fault of the oil burner, I got on with my business. I would not want to pay for the clean-up though because everything has a brown film on it and will require a thorough cleaning.
 
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Old 12-10-03, 05:10 PM
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The candles thing is common

I saw a web site I think by HB Smith or Weil Mclain that showed a pleated air filter in 1 week after a candle was burned for like an hour 3 times a week and It was pure black...another mystery was soot marks on the thresholds of shag carpets...this was because the rooms had a common return in the hallway and the doors were shut so the carpet became the filter...It also tends to stick to nails under the painted drywall, because of the electrical charge.
 
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Old 12-10-03, 11:10 PM
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Soot from lp gas fireplace?

Ed .
It was the other way around.
Burner had nat gas injectors in it but connected to LPG at 2.75kpa OOPs I mean 11" wg.
So the burner was putting in about 60-80% more gas then it should..
What also makes soot on an LPG burner is the gunk in the gas and the excess of butane. We've had problems over here with oil from the compressors where they pump the stuff getting into the regulators .
I had one experience were the gas stopped flowing and we found the valve in a slam shut reg came adrift and sat down on the seat and blocked the flow.
Valve was some sort of artifical rubber stuff and it swelled uo and poped out of it holder. stuck it back in with Ados and no problem since but i've heard reports of similar problems from other Gas fitters.
Also used to maintain LPG fired gas water cylinders and used to have to knock off the build up of carbon from the pilots every few months. I think the butane was the culprit. tried to get them on to straight propane but no sucess. Too much red tape. Plus 90 kg bottles.(200lb)
 
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Old 12-10-03, 11:29 PM
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I did a bit of digging around on this subject and this is what I found out. This is the “official” explanation by the chemist who study hydrocarbon reactions. Feel free to disagree or provide alternative explanations.

Pure combustion is produced by maintaining the correct air to fuel ratio as would be expected. This ratio varies with the type of fuel. Natural gas or methane is the lightest gas in the category CxHy (CH4). Normal combustion is described by the following equation.

CH4 + 02 -> H2O + CO2.

Sorry – I’ve not bothered to balance the equation but just showing the byproducts during ideal combustion that has the exactly correct oxygen/air to fuel ratio. In practice NG is not 100% pure methane and as it is almost impossible to provide ideal air to fuel ratio so unwanted traces of gases like CO will be present.

The exact mechanism for ideal combustion is that the air has to be mixed with the NG before combustion. This is known as the primary air. In addition the correct mix of air known as the secondary air must be present to be drawn into the flame. These are the conditions for ideal combustion. If sufficient primary air is not present the above chemical reaction does not take place. Instead the hydrocarbon cracks or breaks down to form compounds such as CO and soot. The soot is actually carbon (i.e. C) originally present in the CH4 and other impurities such as ethane and propane. This is the source of the soot during poor combustion and actually comes from the way the gas breaks down as opposed to soot formed due to burnt particulates such as dust which is very often present regardless of combustion conditions as I said in an earlier post.

This would also apply to using the wrong kinds of injectors since the air/fuel ratio is different for NG and LPG. If the wrong one is used then incomplete combustion is going to occur.
 
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Old 12-10-03, 11:48 PM
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Soot from lp gas fireplace?

Well, Guess thats answers the question you posed back in your first reply on this topic. LOL
Yes, I've been though all that too in several training sesions but chemical formuals are not my cup of tea.
 
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Old 12-11-03, 04:01 AM
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So is that how they come up with the so called vent free heaters. Because the LPG and Kerosenes properties are always constant and you can supposedly get a near perfect air/fuel ratio for complete combustion and NG always varies and complete combustion is not possible?

Another test on the candles I read was to take a scented candle and put it in a small room like the bathroom and place several plastic plates around and after burning for a few hours the plates will be covered with the black film. I never tried this but it was interesting reading. Alot of the "quality" candle makers are boasting soot free candles.
 
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Old 12-11-03, 11:57 AM
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Lightbulb OH BOY

I think I will just let the soot go over my head here. The only time I have had to work on soot is when the d** squirrel's get in a oil furnace flue. Now that's SOOT and in the whole home.
ED
 
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Old 12-12-03, 01:21 AM
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'Soot from lp gas fireplace?'

'So is that how they come up with the so called vent free heaters. Because the LPG and Kerosenes properties are always constant and you can supposedly get a near perfect air/fuel ratio for complete combustion and NG always varies and complete combustion is not possible?'

Can you explain what you mean by 'NG always varies?'
Do you mean that the quality of the gas varies?
Our NG is fairly consistant over here?
And yes we have unvented NG heaters.
Permanent Hi level and lo level vent from outside required depending on input of heater.
 
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Old 12-12-03, 04:09 AM
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The quality of NG over here can vary from 950 - 1150 btu/cu.ft. So I would "assume" that at times there are more or less impurities "or the physical make-up" is not always constant after it leaves the processing plant. I'm probably way off in left field but curious as to why it "seams" LPG and Kerosene burn cleaner than NG.

And like Ed said about the squirrel. I just removed 2 smoked squirrel's from a chimney at a rental the other day. The little kid that lived there thought it was the coolest thing that they were stiff as a board and wanted to keep'm. I could just picture the look on his moms face if he ran up there with them in hand all excited. "Look mommy! What the landlord gave me!"
 
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Old 12-12-03, 07:48 AM
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Lightbulb squirrels

Aw Matt "smoked squirrel" you could have made some good ROADKILL stew with them.
Forget the soot that the squirrels have caused. Just picture in your mind a squirrel gets down a fireplace flue in a two story home all the doors open in the home and a big big dog after the squirrel for over 8 hr while the people are at work

Thats why I like to tell people get a birdguard with that flue tile cap for sure.

Narroc over here the Ventfree gas heaters Nat or Lp are outlaw in many states and by many local codes

ED
 
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Old 12-12-03, 12:39 PM
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Soot from lp gas fireplace?

Well that is interesting.
Over here unvented appliances are allowed but MUST have hi & lo level vent from the area to outside to allow fresh air infilltaion.
The Nat Gas over is fairly consistant so I was surprised that it is varable over there. ours is around 39-40 Mj /M3 .
All atmospheric heaters MUST have cowls to prevent foreign animals/birds getting in. We don't have squirrels but we do have possumms ( sort like a wild cat) which we imported from Australia over a 120yrs ago and have regretted it ever since.
Gas water heater (or any gas appliance for that matter) are banned in in bathrooms in NZ as some got killed from a unvented califont in the shower after some one blocked up the window with hardboard to stop the cold air coming in and the heater used up the oxygen while they were showering. Found dead on the floor of the shower.Happened many years ago.
 
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Old 12-13-03, 12:08 AM
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I think that all the fuels will have some trace of impurities so I would be surprised if the same does not apply to LPG and kerosene. In fact as I understand it NG is one of the cleanest burning fuels since lighter hydrocarbons burn cleaner than heavier ones and methane is the lightest out of the family CxHy being CH4. Ethane, Propane, Butane etc are heavier (have larger no of carbon and hydrogen atoms per molecule) and burn even less efficiently. Having said that naturally occurring NG is full of impurities and is refined before distribution to homes. The final product is almost pure methane.

I was not aware of the BTU/ct ft range for the US. Where does this no come from? 950-1150 BTU/cu ft corresponds to a range 35.3-42.8MJ/M3. This is certainly a larger variation than the NG in NZ. Whilst impurities could well influence this, I am thinking that operating conditions will also have an effect. So variations in atmospheric pressure and temperature will affect the fuel/air mix ratio. Since the intake orifice is fixed such variation would produce a difference in energy/unit volume of fuel. My guess is that the range has been provided to take extremes into account. Maybe we have larger extremes in the US. I find it hard to believe that the methods for NG production in the US and NZ are different.

As for unvented heaters – in the US it is not disallowed by the national code but there are some guidelines on room size and heater output. I believe they are banned in bedrooms and bathrooms with a couple of exceptions. However, it would seem that some states and local codes have banned them completely. How much of a danger they really are I have no idea. I wonder if anyone in this forum has any statistics about deaths etc as a result of unvented heaters. After all gas stoves are allowed with no special ventilation. Stoves are effectively unvented appliances in many cases.

It is quite interesting to see the various regulations not just in the US but in other countries. For example in the UK only registered gas installers can install and work with gas lines. They are known as CORGI installers (can’t remember what it stands for). A homeowner can design and install a central heating system including the boiler and all the plumbing but a CORGI person must make and test the gas connection.
 
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Old 12-13-03, 07:19 AM
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I will post the link on that variation as soon as I find it again and in the mean time I've e-mailed a friend that can hopefully get me exact numbers from the DOE.

It really should be code to have the critter caps on chimneys and flues. Only problem is with high efficiency units that condensate in below freezing conditions ice will gather around eventially blocking or restricting the outlet. Trane I know has a oval cover for theirs but it still has an unrestricted opening big enough for a small bird or mouse. About 3 years ago I had a 20lb coon crawl down my chimney to make it his home above my gas log fireplace the dog went nuts for about a week till I was able to get it out and then put caps on my chimneys.

Narroc: What were they thinking to import Possums? There like big slow rats that tear into the garbage and dig in your yard for grubs. A few years back they imported and released these beatles that look like brown lady bugs to eat aphids. Now in the fall we battle with hundreds of these theings getting in the house and annoying you outside.
 
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Old 12-15-03, 10:34 PM
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Soot from lp gas fireplace?

Possums eat the native bush over here they also are carriers of TB and devastate the native bush.
Why did they import -Rabbits, Deer, Wallabys,stoats ,weasles, butterflies, and a host of other pests, tell me because I don't .
NZ spent M$ & M$ each year trying to control these pests.
Problem is possums are not a pest in Australia were they came from and I guess the early settlers didn't think they would be a pest here. Eucalyptus trees go mad over here and grow like crazy because of the wetter climate we have to Australia.
 
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Old 12-18-03, 06:17 AM
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Thumbs up Web Site Monitors Note

This threads contents, based on the question asked, the quality and quantity of information contained within it, where found to be excellent.

For the benefit of members whom may not read the "Heating & Cooling" forum topic, where this thread originated, this thread was copied into this forum topic of fireplaces.
 
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Old 12-18-03, 07:35 AM
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Although the diy rules state the discussion is to remain on topic, there is a slight "Deviation" of policy noted here within this discussion.

Deviation, which is generally frowned upon, in questions and the replies offered may be acceptable in some instances. This just may be one of them.

The mentioning of "Roadkill" is noted here. A slight deviation in this instance may be benefical. Being a suburbanite myself, I never had the eating pleasures of tasting home made country "Roadkill" food.

For the benefit of myself and many others, the web site has a "Recipes" forum topic for that specific purpose. Share your recipe. The format in that topic also deviates from the normal format on the web site. It is non interactive.

Which means replies cannot be posted. (Read the forum rules for additional information.) But that topic would be an ideal location to post "Roadkill Recipes."....

If anyone has such recipes, share them with the rest of us. Title your recipe specific to the food item, list the ingredients and the entire process to achive perfect results.

Suggestions for topic recipes titles:

Squirrel Roadkill or Squirrel Roadkill Recipe.

Muskrat Roadkill or Muskrat Roadkill Recipe.

Chipmunk Roadkill or Chipmunk Roadkill Recipe.

Possum Roadkill or Possum Roadkill Recipe.

Raccoon, Snake, Bird, Beaver, Badger..the list could be endless.

Roadkill, it seems, than can be made from any unfortunate animal that crosses the path of a vehicle and comes into contact with it.

Fine dinning can be found anywhere...

Post your recipe.
I'll eat just about anything that doesn't "Bite" me first.....
 
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Old 12-19-03, 08:58 AM
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Question please, more about soot and gas fireplaces?

The thread discussing soot and burning candles, fireplaces, ect. was excellent and answered a question I had...where is all this black stuff coming from? My Gas Log Fireplace.

My understanding now is that the gas isn't getting enough air when it burns, and that there should be some kind of apparatus that mixes air with the gas before it burns. My fireplace has none...it appears that it's just burning plain old natural gas.

Am I looking in the wrong place, or what? How do these things work?

Ross C
 
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Old 12-19-03, 07:33 PM
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In many appliances the air intake is actually on the burner assembly itself. Air is mixed with the gas just before the flame. Have you checked the burner on your fireplace to see if it has some kind of opening.
 
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Old 12-20-03, 12:09 AM
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please, more about soot and gas

Some of the log fires I'Ve seen have no primary air and are what is called luminous burners, These are burners designed to run with out the primary air.
I've seen them on small unflued heaters like Rinnai R750 as well as log fires.
Soot is carbon produced by the incomplete burning of a hydrocarbon flue
Almost every fuel is H/C,
Oil, Gas, Coal, wood, and the fuels which come from these groups, paper, coke, etc.
 
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Old 12-20-03, 06:40 AM
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Lightbulb gas logs

You could call the gas company there.Have then check on the W/C pressure of the gas there at the unit Also they could check the pipe to it and see it it is the right size .lots of time the pipe to the units are to small. ED
 
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Old 12-20-03, 06:03 PM
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Not quite sure I agree with this definition of hydrocarbons. My understanding is that hydrocarbons are purely composed of Hydrogen and Carbon atoms - usually in the form CxHy and include among others methane,ethane,propane,butane etc. Wood on the other hand contains other atoms like oxygen in the cellulose so it is a hydrocarbon of sorts but not in a "pure" sense.
 
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Old 12-20-03, 11:07 PM
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please, more about soot and gas fireplaces?

Sounds like splitting hairs to me.

'Where there's smoke, there's hydrocarbon. Scientists who took wintertime air samples in Albuquerque, N.M., say most airborne pollutants floated from burning wood, but emissions from motor vehicles were the more potent health hazard. The study showed that 78 percent of the extractable organic matter, or hydrocarbon, was generated from wood stoves and fireplaces. However, the smoke accounted for only 58 percent of the air's mutagenicity. Pollution from motor vehicle exhaust was three times as mutagenic as wood smoke, the researchers report in the August [issue of] Environmental Science and Technology."

--- Laura Beil, Science News 134(7):102, 13 August 1988
 
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Old 12-21-03, 10:47 AM
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Yeah, I guess it probably is splitting hairs.

I meant to post the following link in the previous thread on this discussion but forgot.

www.naturalgas.org

It has useful info about how natural gas is mined, produced, distributed etc and would be useful reading for anyone interested in this topic.
 
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Old 12-21-03, 11:01 PM
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Soot and more soot, Dirty hands & faces lol

Sure Wood contains cellulose (C6H10O5)

But is still a Hydrocarbon fuel.

A very interesting site is

http://home.att.net/~cat6a/fuels-I.htm.
 
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Old 12-22-03, 12:53 AM
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That link does not work for me. Can you double check.
 
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Old 12-22-03, 08:23 PM
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Soot and more soot.

Sorry It doesn't have a full stop after htm
Try this now.

http://home.att.net/~cat6a/fuels-I.htm
 
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Old 12-23-03, 03:12 PM
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Got it now! Yes, looks like an interesting site. I will go through it when I have some time
 
 

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