My noted insert won't light. Pilot will light, igniter works, but will not stay lit after button released after running for a minute or two. I went to the installer for help and after describing the issues/diagnosing, one friendly guy and the grumpy owner immediately said "thermocouple". Here's my question. I can get a thermocouple and a thermopile both for something like $175. The shop told me a visit at $185/hr labor and part....thermocouple.....would be $180. And likel more than an hour. Yikes! Not sure if they were including the thermopile, but the list, which they charge for every thing for both is in the $300 vicinity. The unit is about 8 yrs old with the pilot always left on. My question, does it make sense to just buy the parts (both) and change them? Looks pretty straight forward to me. I am a pretty good DIY'er.
No really good manuals on this unit. Parts are not all mainstream used parts so you are somewhat at the mercy of replacing assemblies instead of single parts. Parts list with manual pdf
It would make the most sense to replace the pilot assembly as a whole unit. I have many individual spare parts but they are hard to find without exact parts numbers. The pilot assembly is a 50-2513. There are other "subbed to" part numbers. Be sure to shop around as I've seen $115-200 for that part.
In the picture is the pilot assembly. It is imperative that the pilot be a large bushy flame that completely engulfs the thermopile and thermocouple. The most typical problem is a pilot flame issue. Many times the pilot orifice needs to be cleaned due to crap and spider nests. Observe the pilot flame before replacing anything. Picture of the flame in the manual
The flame envelopes both the TC and the Thermopile pretty much completely. Barely any yellow, only a touch now and then. The flame is I guess would I would call nice and thick in 3 directions so I am thinking the flame is working as it is supposed to. I found an inexpensive replacement TC that supposedly meets the Enviro part number specs so hopefully in the next day or two I can get at the burner. Seems I ought to meter the TC and Thermopile output and if not high enough, change them out and see what I get. Looks fairly straight forward. We'll see
The thermopile won't affect the pilot. That's the thermocouples job.
Yes.... thermocouples are basically universal. You could buy a generic $20 model and it will work fine.
The problem is the mounting. Many of the universal types are too big to fit your mount.
Very hard to check thermocouples as they use a coaxial tube/nut connection.
You need to unscrew it from the valve to check it and then it's no longer under the load of the pilot holding coil. You could get an adapter that goes inline.
However.... you said the pilot looks satisfactory.... my opinion.... just replace the t'couple.
Got to it this afternoon. Seems fixed, working as it should. Some interesting observations. The pilot mounting assembly is close to the world’s biggest PITA. Maybe a service guy would take out the whole unit. You just can’t get at the connections. But I persevered and got it done. Here’s a bit of interesting stuff. Dealer suggested replacing the TC was about 1+ hr labor at $185/hr. Part, maybe including the insane gasket seal for a list of $80.. and the Tc which lists for about $90. All in, about $400 plus, Said the TC was $180.After doing some searching, YouTube and Amazon, I paid about $28 for a TC and the Thermopile. It was a couple hour job, could probably do it in about and hour now. The parts I bought were as close a match as is possible. Only very slight differences that unless you matched them up with a crotical eye, you would not fi d any difference. As noted above, it is almost impossible to test the TC and Thermopile when installed on this insert. World’s worst design for access, terrible. But out of curiosity, once removed I tested each. TC got to about 37-38. The ‘pile got to about 510 which supposedly is good, but it did’nt work so one or both were not up to snuff. Somebody should go to jail for charging more than a couple bucks for the gasket/seal. I used hi-temp gasket sealant instead.
Last edited by bobfoley1276; 04-27-23 at 03:53 PM.
Reason: Added info
Back again. Original problem solved nicely. Now next issue. Insert fires up quickly, nice pilot flame, all good. But now, worked great for a couple of days then I got a faint gas odor with the pilot (only) burning, almost undetectable, but there. My conclusion was the gas pilot tube connection was leaking. Two reasons. One, when I removed the assembly plate as pictured above, the aluminum gas tube had a pretty good kink-crease at the fitting. I am guessing the original assembler had just mashed the whole assembly down to mount it and kinked the gas tube. Second observation, when I was replacing the TC and Tpile, I took off the gas line from the pilot hood for access to remove those parts. I had a hard time……ie….had to wrench off the aluminum tube fitting all the way due to the kink. So, my conclusion is the line, at the compression fitting got broken just enough to create a tiny crack. Obviously with a gas line, not so good. Anyway, next question. There are two parts for the tube shown for my model. E30. One can be had for $12-$14, the other that matches mine is $55 and not as readily available. So, how to procede. Buy a new off brand pilot hood for $15 that uses the generic tubing fitting? Buy a whole assembly for $40 that looks exactly like what I got? Or find a $2 compression ferrule that will allow me to shorten the tube to less than its 4 mile lenght and simplify installation? No rush, as its warm and no need for the insert for a while now. I guess I am searching for the low cost, easily available approach to this simple but not so easy to fix issue.
I don't service fireplaces for a living but I get many calls from friends of friends requiring service. There aren't too many companies specializing in fireplaces..... especially reasonably priced.
I have bulk flare fittings and carry several sizes of tubing with me.
Most of those fittings aren't compression.... they are flare.
You can cut the pipe and re-use that flare nut.
You just need an inexpensive flare tool..... basic flaring tool.
I got all sorts of flare and bending tools.......did a lot with auto brake lines in the past.. Not sure if I got 1/8 inch though, But the gas hood uses a sort of cone with a hole shape compression fitting. I guess thats the ferrule. Actually tiny in size, The threads on the two ends of my gas pilot line are the same fitting, sort of, but the the cones on each end are slightly different, Enough to notice the difference. Seems the angle might a bit different. Who knows why? It is frustrating to not be able to find a $2 fitting that would simplify the whole mess. Maybe tomorrow I will call Enviro, to get their take. My guess is they will say to buy the $50 tube. We;ll see I have until November to solve the issue so there is time but it would be nice to put the insert back together.
That's where I ended up yesterday, I guess the couple items I ordered are in the mail.. Today, because I have too much time to waste, I called a couple of parts suppliers. I could not find any way to contact the manufacturer, Enviro. They keep pointing you to their dealers. Anyway, the parts suppliers (not Amazon or Ebay) are almost unbelievable for prices. One place. $109....Yikes! Best price, on sale $53..... generic, looks exactly the same, $12. I found the fittings on line for $11 plus shipping which was probably as much. I might try a local plumbing supply shop near by to see if they have the fittings. I really do not want to reinstall the 24 inch tube that needs to be about 8 or 9 inches. The extra length makes install way harder than it needs to be. The saga continues.
Hello,
I recently acquired a [b]Mendota fv44i[/b] Natural Gas Insert. My question to the group is - I [b]do not[/b] currently have a fireplace that this can be inserted into. Can i build a structure that I can use this Insert or does it HAVE to be inserted into a masonry fireplace? I was considering building the structure out of non-combustible materials, utilizing metal studs and concrete (ie; durorock) for walls and seal any gaps with fireblock sealant. I cant seem to reach Mendota and was hoping I could get some answers here. Has anyone ever done this, and if so any suggestions? Any help is appreciated [i][b]Thanks![/b][/i]
There's not really a place for this topic so I just stuck it here.
We call it "lighter Pine" here in Louisiana. Its mostly called "Fat Wood" it looks like from my internet search. For you who may not know what it is, its just dried pine that retains the sap & dries. This stuff is as good as gasoline for starting fires. Extremely flammable.
Ok, so my question is, how long does a pine tree need to be down or dead before it dries & is considered to be lighter pine?
I tried searching this on Google with no results. I have a pine that has been down for about 4 years. Personally, I don't think its long enough but I wanted to ask. I haven't used lighter pine in probably 40 years. In research & from my memory, it looks like it needs to be down 10 - 20 years or so.
04-23-23, 02:37 PM
