Bearing Plate Question(s)


  #1  
Old 01-31-05, 11:48 AM
jmazur
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Bearing Plate Question(s)

now that i've got the ceiling joists taken care of,

i'm preparing to remove/reinstall the batchagaloob flooring joists; which consist of a mishmosh of 2x4, 2x6, 2x10; with no apparent consideration in the way they were installed.

i'm meeting with my s/e this weekend to go over the project, but just figured i'd run it through the forum first.

i am planning on replacing all that *garbage* with tji's (exact item, not yet determined) however as i inspect the project, and prepare to uplift the existing subfloor/joists, i'ved noticed that the bearing plate does not come flush to the interior wall of the foundation.

i was hoping to be able to use top flange joist hangers in this application, but would first have to extend the bearing plate, in order to give me something to anchor to.

my question is; is it possible to increase the width of the bearing plate (without lifting the house) to cover the exposed block?

any suggestions?
 
  #2  
Old 01-31-05, 01:16 PM
jmazur
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i did it again...

i have a tendency to ask a ?? then find the answer...
nonetheless, i like to share what i find>

i found this product over at simpson, and seems like it will help me out, i've got to look a bit further into it, but it's a retrofit foundation plate.

have a look:

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/UFP.html
 
  #3  
Old 02-01-05, 03:13 AM
S
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i was hoping to be able to use top flange joist hangers in this application, but would first have to extend the bearing plate, in order to give me something to anchor to. ?
Stricly from a safety standpoint, ONLY remove the floor sheating to the sole plates of the walls, install the new floor joists, AND ONLY THEN, cutoff and remove the old joists.

Here is a link to common framing practices an terms;
http://www.awc.org/pdf/WCD1-300.pdf

my question is; is it possible to increase the width of the bearing plate (without lifting the house) to cover the exposed block?
You structural engineer wil tell you what constitutes "full bearing" and I suspect that unless you have only a 2x4 mud sill,(what you are referring to as a bearing plate), you will be just fine.

Using the simpson product you referenced won't do you any good, because it doesn't increase the nailing surface and I don't think that HUTF's will be a recomendation either.
 
  #4  
Old 02-01-05, 04:44 AM
jmazur
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Originally Posted by Snoonyb
Stricly from a safety standpoint, ONLY remove the floor sheating to the sole plates of the walls, install the new floor joists, AND ONLY THEN, cutoff and remove the old joists.
yeah, i was planning only to rip up the remaining two layers of subfloor at this point to reveal the flooring joists.

then i would systematically install a tji and at the same time remove the old joist (mess), each one at a time.

it's such a disaster, you wouldn't believe.
i'll have to get some shots up here.

btw, there are no load bearing walls inside the 20x30 structure. it is of open-plan layout.

so, the flooring joists are only supporting the subfloor, and perhaps offer some lateral support to the structure.

thanks for that link!

i've been looking for something like that for about a month now!!!

Originally Posted by Snoonyb
Using the simpson product you referenced won't do you any good, because it doesn't increase the nailing surface and I don't think that HUTF's will be a recomendation either.
perhaps i wasn't clear here. if you look at the simpson site i referenced, and mouse-over the middle picture of the ufp, that's basically what i've got in the basement now (without the ufp) so i was looking to close up the approx. 2 1/2" gap on the cement foundation, using the first method with the ufp, which would essentially increase my sill plate and in turn increase my nailing surface..... no?
 
  #5  
Old 02-01-05, 07:29 PM
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you might want to consider top chord bearing floor trusses instead of TJI's. the costs are comparable and you avoid the expense of the simpson hangers. the trusses can be fabricated custom to reach the sill plate as constructed.

also, the open webs make hvac installation MUCHO easier.
 
  #6  
Old 02-01-05, 10:00 PM
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[QUOTE] perhaps i wasn't clear here. if you look at the simpson site i referenced, and mouse-over the middle picture of the ufp, that's basically what i've got in the basement now (without the ufp) so i was looking to close up the approx. 2 1/2" gap on the cement foundation, using the first method with the ufp, which would essentially increase my sill plate and in turn increase my nailing surface..... no? [QUOTE]

You were clear. What I was explaining was that the UFP is a hold down bracket.
If you are considering using it as a nailing plate for a sill extension, I wouldn't suggest that method. I would just purchase some 2x3 treated lumber and using "hide" glue, glue and bolt it to the existing sill. Less potential for splitting.
 
  #7  
Old 02-02-05, 04:31 AM
jmazur
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Originally Posted by clardl
you might want to consider top chord bearing floor trusses instead of TJI's. the costs are comparable and you avoid the expense of the simpson hangers. the trusses can be fabricated custom to reach the sill plate as constructed.

also, the open webs make hvac installation MUCHO easier.

Thanks!
That is something I wasn't really aware of.

I did some searching over at TrusJoist (makers of my TJI's) and found that they offer an Open Web Truss made with a 1 1/8" tublar steel web.

Nice thing about that is, that they have a detail for my specific application
"Top Chord Bearing on Masonry Wall"

Have a look....


Have you any experience with "squeakiness" and/or floor noise?

I'm going to have a look at these this weekend....

Just might be the solution!!

Thanks again, I really appreciate it!
 
  #8  
Old 02-03-05, 03:01 PM
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Personally, i would go to my local truss manufacturers for the trusses. common floor trusses are all wood construction (2x4 flatwise for webs and chords, and metal plates for connections, just like roof trusses). You should compare costs, but I think you will find the local guy will be cheaper.

For standard residential framing, you should use a 24" spacing and have the truss guy design the trusses for L/480 live load deflection. This gives a good, stiff floor and it can save you several trusses. If you have any ceramic tile areas that cover more than half the truss span (kitchen areas), tell him to increase the stiffness to the L/600 range to prevent cracking of the tile.
 
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Old 02-03-05, 05:12 PM
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[QUOTE] Nice thing about that is, that they have a detail for my specific application [QUOTE]

Then you do not have conventional framing, where on top of the masonry wall there is a rimjoist or blocking as well as the floor joist.

[QUOTE] "Top Chord Bearing on Masonry Wall" {QUOTE]

Which lowers your floor level the width of the joist system.
 
  #10  
Old 02-04-05, 05:36 AM
jmazur
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yeah, good idea clardl...
i will try to find a local guy out here to see what they come back with.
i'm glad to hear that i've only got to do 24"o/c, that will save me some $$$

although i'm not using tile, i think i'll go with the L/600 range just to *beef* it up some, and assure that i'm good in the bathroom/bathtub area.

snoonyb-- there is absolutely nothing "conventional" about this house!

approximately 50% of the existing floor joists (which are 2x6, 2x10, 2x12) are resting on the sill plate and toe-nailed to the band, 25% (which are 2x4) are nailed directly to the band with simpson hangers, suspended above the sill.

it was a total disaster when i got it, and now i'm just going through each piece of the house, and attempting to *retrofit* as best i can, any modern options.
 
  #11  
Old 02-07-05, 04:43 AM
jmazur
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height of bearing plate?

as shown in the illustration here:
http://www.suffolknetworks.com/detail1.jpg

it's only calling for a 2x_ bearing plate.

my latest question:
is it possible to *stack* the 2x_ in order to raise the height of the top chord to bring it level with the remains of the prior floor in the other room?

also what is the best approach to attach the *new* bearing plate?

thanks guys...
 
  #12  
Old 02-07-05, 10:47 AM
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To attach the bearing plate, I would use expansion bolts into the cmu. The top course of block should be a grouted course as shown on that detail which makes the expansion bolts a good fit.

as for stacking 2x's to match the existing floors, it is not a good idea because the truss to wall connection is critical as it resists the soil pressure that exists on the outside of the basement wall. introducing another 2x will create a "hinge" that could roll over due to the soil pressure. Instead, you can have the truss manufacturer increase the "heel height" of the truss to compensate. what they do is add another 2x to the bearing and increase the size of the metal plate to connect it. it probably costs more but it is the better solution.

regarding your l/600 deflection requirement, that could get expensive. I would find out how much of a cost difference that is before i bought into it if i were you. the building code only requires L/360, and L/480 is reccomended for performance and should be adequate for carpet, wood flooring, etc.
 
  #13  
Old 02-07-05, 01:02 PM
jmazur
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Originally Posted by clardl
To attach the bearing plate, I would use expansion bolts into the cmu. The top course of block should be a grouted course as shown on that detail which makes the expansion bolts a good fit.

as for stacking 2x's to match the existing floors, it is not a good idea because the truss to wall connection is critical as it resists the soil pressure that exists on the outside of the basement wall. introducing another 2x will create a "hinge" that could roll over due to the soil pressure. Instead, you can have the truss manufacturer increase the "heel height" of the truss to compensate. what they do is add another 2x to the bearing and increase the size of the metal plate to connect it. it probably costs more but it is the better solution.

regarding your l/600 deflection requirement, that could get expensive. I would find out how much of a cost difference that is before i bought into it if i were you. the building code only requires L/360, and L/480 is reccomended for performance and should be adequate for carpet, wood flooring, etc.

thanks clardl, once again!.
ok, so that being said, i found what appears to be what you're making reference to; a dropped top truss.

however, i'm having a difficult time finding a local manufacturer... grrrr....
 
  #14  
Old 02-09-05, 04:35 AM
jmazur
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so after meeting with the engineer and the guys at my local building supply co., we've determined, for several reasons, that the tji will work best for my specific application.

i still have to add a bearing plate.

i will be anchoring the plate to the cmu's with expansion bolts as recommended by clardl and may reinforce with a simpson retro-fap.

however, i do have a few questions regarding the bearing plate:

a) should i use treated lumber due to it being in direct contact with the cmu
and/or
b) is it wise/recommended to place a material (i.e. roofing paper) between the bearing plate and the cmu?
c) is it acceptible to use a 4x_ rather than 2x_ for my bearing plate as i have to accommodate for some inconsistencies?

bearing plate detail here: http://www.suffolknetworks.com/detail1.jpg

thanks alot guys...
 
 

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