Removing a subfloor

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  #1  
Old 07-25-09, 06:58 PM
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Removing a subfloor

I found a similar thread, but that was from 6 months ago so I decided to create a new one.

I've got some questions regarding removing a subfloor. I'm thinking of removing the subfloor in my mudroom so that I can build it up for a tile floor. If I do remove, as opposed to just adding a layer on top, I'm wondering the steps needed to remove.

From the reading I've done it looks as if I need to cut the floor at the walls and add blocking at the edges so that I have a spot to nail, or screw, the new subfloor into. This blocking is where I have the questions. When I cut out the floor at the walls it seems as if I could end up, worst case, with the subfloor under the base plate overhanging the previous floor joist by about 14 inches (on the wall that runs parallel to the floor joists). How does this section of subfloor get supported? Also, I read that if the base plate is not over a floor joist, as in the case I just mentioned, when you cut the subfloor at the wall the wall might move a bit and cause cracks.

What is the procedure for doing this? I've got an unfinished basement below.

Do I attempt to find out where the cut is going to end up and put the blocking in first so that the wall is always supported?

When the blocking is added so that I have a spot to nail the new subfloor into, is 1/2 of it supposed to support the floor on the other side of this new floor (the existing floor under the base plate)?

Thanks,
Nick
 
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Old 07-25-09, 07:43 PM
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I see no reason to remove the sub floor, unless it is damaged, to then build it up again for tile. You would, IMO, wasting your time and effort. Just install your backer of cement board (or other approved board) to get your floor to the thickness you need for tile and start laying.
 
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Old 07-26-09, 03:48 AM
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I agree. You can't reduce the thickness of your subflooring in order to accommodate tile. It will, then, be too weak. Add 1/4" cbu according to manufacturer's recommendations then your tile. True, you may have to make a transition, but it is common and necessary.
 
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Old 07-26-09, 05:10 AM
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What I have now is 5/8" plywood, not sure if it's tongue and groove. The recommended thickness is 1 1/4", from what I can tell. It seems that most reach this by using 3/4" T&G and then add 1/2" on top. Then cement board or ditra and tile.

There are a couple reasons what I was thinking of removing the subfloor as opposed to building it up to 1 1/4". If I build the floor up I could have (most likely will) a floor transition issue from the mud room to an adjoining room. So just putting down the 3/4" I would gain 1/8". I was also toying with building up the floor from below with strips of plywood between the joists (just thinking about this still). Also, removing the floor will mean I don't have to remove the left over thinset that's on it.

So back to my original questions about removing the subfloor.

Thanks,
Nick
 
  #5  
Old 07-27-09, 07:45 AM
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So back to my original questions about removing the subfloor.
Well, not just yet. 5/8" t&g plywood is the absolute minimum subfloor for ceramic tile. If you don't have t&g, you can install blocking from below at the unsupported joints, then nail or screw the joints from above to the blocking. 5/8" is the absolute minimum, and yes its always better to have more plywood. Plywood is what makes the the floor stronger/stiffer between joints. Cement board manufacturers make to claims of making the floor stronger or stiffer. Cement board only serves as a good bonding surface for your thinset and tile. If you have height concerns, my suggestion would be to add another layer (3/8" minimum, thicker would be better) of exterior glue plywood bc or better, and then an isolation membrane like noble cis or schluter ditra. Minor height transitions are acceptable and can easily be dealt with. Don't sacrafice the height issue for a substandard installation.

As a side note, schluter ditra claims that you can install their product over 5/8" t&g plywood over 16" oc joists with no other underlayment. That is ditra right over the 5/8" plywood. Not an installation I'd feel comfortable doing, but schluter says you can. An added layer of plywood will make you sleep better at night.
 
  #6  
Old 07-27-09, 11:30 AM
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I definitely will be building the floor up more than the existing 5/8", just not sure how yet.

I am thinking of using ditra. Another concern of mine is that the ditra installation instructions say the subfloor sheets (not sure if all sheets or just the top ones) need a 3 mm spacing. I don't think the existing subfloor sheets have a 3 mm spacing.

Is there an easy way to tell whether the existing subfloor is tongue and groove?

If I keep the existing subfloor and add to it, what's the best way to remove the remaining thinset on it?

Anyone want to answer my original question about how to replace a subfloor?

Thanks,
Nick
 
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Old 07-27-09, 02:50 PM
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We're not avoiding the answer to your question, but trying to save you a little labor. You can remove the existing thinset with a flat hoe or with a chisel. If you absolutely have to remove the subflooring a reciprocating saw with a 6" blade, bent slightly and cut only the depth you want to remove along the wall.
 
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Old 07-27-09, 05:51 PM
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I'm not suggesting you're avoiding it. I realize you want to get the whole picture so as to better advise me. And believe me I'm taking all these suggestions in. I for one don't want to make things more complicated than they have to be.

The question I had with regards to removing the subfloor was more to do with the blocking that will be required. But in addition to that I would like to know what you mean by the blade on the sawzall bent slightly.

Thanks,
Nick
 
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Old 07-27-09, 07:29 PM
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Bending the blade on a sawzall will allow it to move vertically along the edge since the body of your saw will keep you away slightly, just due to the size of the body. I know it sounds like something totally against the rules, but we have to do it every day to make smooth, straight cuts in restricted areas.
 
  #10  
Old 07-27-09, 09:44 PM
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I would not remove the sub-floor. What you have (5/8") is the bare minimum. It is probably nailed and glued as it should be. If you remove by cutting the wall perimeter, there will not be anything holding up the bearing and non-bearing walls, if adjoining the exterior. Do you have wood floor joists or engineered? Even cutting and putting in blocking, the wall supports will not be as strong as they are now. Unless the layout is 24", you wouldn't be strengthening any by blocking that you wouldn't get with more plywood.

Put the blocking in from below if you feel it is absolutely needed. Then piece in the decking between the joists (creating a weaker floor), and add more ply, 5/8" on top to gain a little more on height.

I would add blocking to the whole area from the underside, glueing and nailing it well, then add the tile application., as Johnny said. Be safe, G
 
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Old 07-28-09, 04:45 AM
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Plywood is what makes the the floor stronger/stiffer between joints. Cement board manufacturers make to claims of making the floor stronger or stiffer. Cement board only serves as a good bonding surface for your thinset and tile.
Wow must have not been paying attention, should have read as follows:

Plywood is what makes the the floor stronger/stiffer between joists. Cement board manufacturers make no claims of making the floor stronger or stiffer. Cement board only serves as a good bonding surface for your thinset and tile.


G's post made me go back and re-read what I wrote.
 
  #12  
Old 07-28-09, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by GBR in WA View Post
If you remove by cutting the wall perimeter, there will not be anything holding up the bearing and non-bearing walls, if adjoining the exterior.
All walls being affected here are non-bearing walls. But as I mentioned, I read that when you cut the subfloor you'll most likely sever the support that's supporting the wall (unless the wall is over a floor joist) which can cause the wall to crack in places. If you have the ability to add the blocking that will be required before making the cut, is it advisable?

Originally Posted by GBR in WA View Post
Do you have wood floor joists or engineered?
Wood. Douglas Fir. 1 1/2" x 9 1/8" (just about 2x10 I guess)

Originally Posted by GBR in WA View Post
Unless the layout is 24", you wouldn't be strengthening any by blocking that you wouldn't get with more plywood.
Not sure what you mean. Layout of 24", do you mean tile size? If so, the tiles are 12" x 24". Also, I'm not looking to strength anything by adding blocking. The blocking I'm talking about is just the blocking I think you need to add when you remove a subfloor. For strengthing the between joist subfloor I'm considering adding plywood strips below the subfloor in between the joists. But this part is separate from my blocking question.

Originally Posted by GBR in WA View Post
Put the blocking in from below if you feel it is absolutely needed.
Similar to my comment above, the blocking I asked about originally has nothing to do with strengthing the subfloor for my tile application. Isn't blocking for the most part always required when you remove a subfloor since you need to have joists (or something) at the edges to secure the subfloor to and when you remove a subfloor you won't have those. So they need to be added, correct?

Originally Posted by GBR in WA View Post
Then piece in the decking between the joists (creating a weaker floor)
Not sure what you mean by decking here. Do you mean the plywood strips I was talking about adding between the joists from below? If so, why would it create a weaker floor than adding nothing at all?

Thanks,
Nick
 
  #13  
Old 07-28-09, 12:44 PM
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Nick

You are killing yourself for no reason. You'll be doing much more work, have more cost, and an inferior floor. Cutting out the subfloor and putting in blocking all over the place isnt going to make for a stronger floor. Plywood between the joists under the subfloor is not going to add as much strength to the floor as a second layer of full sheets of plywood.

The solution is really easy. Add another layer of plywood over what you have. 3/8" plywood is minimum thickness you can add for ceramic tile. Thicker plywood would be better and is desireable. Then ditra, then your tile. This is not going to be a major height transition that cannot be dealt with.

Hey Nick, if I took this long to make decisions my wife would have thrown me out of the house already.
 
  #14  
Old 07-28-09, 04:59 PM
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What I was saying is if you don't want to raise the foor level anymore, add blocking under the existing floor to stiffen it. Instead of plywood layer on existing. To do all the other work to simply gain a 1/4" is unnessesary. I'm talking blocks (2x4) 16" on center, between the joists. With basement access, it would be an easy thing to do.

The backing or ply strips on the joists side is the old school way of installing a mud bed for tile.

Will your joists support the tiles? Will you have the minimum deflection for these large tiles?

What is the joist span? Bearings how far apart?

Are the joists 16" or 24" apart? Be safe, G
 
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Old 07-28-09, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by GBR in WA View Post
Will your joists support the tiles? Will you have the minimum deflection for these large tiles?

What is the joist span? Bearings how far apart?

Are the joists 16" or 24" apart?
I already ran the numbers through some deflection program. It said I was ok for ceramic tile. 13' span of 1 1/2" x 9 1/8" douglas fir 16" oc.

Originally Posted by HeresJohnny View Post
Cutting out the subfloor and putting in blocking all over the place isnt going to make for a stronger floor.
As I mentioned, I was asking about the blocking not for increasing the strength of the floor. It's just what I assume you need to do when you remove a floor.

Originally Posted by HeresJohnny View Post
Hey Nick, if I took this long to make decisions my wife would have thrown me out of the house already.
My wife is starting to get tired of not seeing any progress. But there's no way I plan on moving forward without knowing what I'm doing.

I have to say that so many, all so far I think, are saying not to remove the subfloor. Maybe I'll take their advice.

Thanks,
Nick
 
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Old 07-28-09, 06:12 PM
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Just one more log on the fire. Cutting the subflooring, in essence cuts the fiber that provides the lateral strength provided by the entire sheet. May not be that important, but I hate to cut into anything that is strong to begin with, just to make it weaker. You'll be OK, but you'd better get started. She called this afternoon and was wondering why we were dilly dallying with this and keeping you from your work. JK
 
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Old 07-29-09, 06:41 AM
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I already ran the numbers through some deflection program. It said I was ok for ceramic tile. 13' span of 1 1/2" x 9 1/8" douglas fir 16" oc.
If so, the tiles are 12" x 24".
Nick

Just noticed the size of your tile. Thats some big tile and as such will require a very stiff floor. Any movement in this floor will be very unforgiving on the tile. You should know that ditra will help isolate horizontal movement beween the subfloor and the tile, however it'll do nothing for vertical movement (bounce up and down). I'd want this floor to meet specs for natural stone for tile that size if I was going to guarantee this installation. Floor joists are pretty close to doing that already, but I'd definitely want a minimum of 2 layers of plywood totalling at least 1 1/4" under the ditra. You might consider sistering the joists in the middle 2/3rds of the span as well since you have easy access to do so.
 
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Old 07-29-09, 07:46 AM
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Nick

Getting beyond your subfloor issues.

With tile that big, you need to make sure that you get a dead flat setting surface. Any dips or high spots in the floor will result in lippage issues. You will also want to use a medium bed mortar and a pretty big notch trowel like 1/2" notch or maybe bigger. You'll have to experiment to see which size trowel you'll get 100% coverage with. You will want to back butter each of the tiles as well.
 
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Old 07-29-09, 12:31 PM
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Replacing a subfloor

Nick:
With over 45 years in this business, I guess you can do what you want dispite the excellent advice you have been given here. If your going to raise your floor, just add plywood to it. A couple layers if you need to. If you cut out your subfloor, your going to have big trouble. This is a fact. Your labor will go up, your costs will go up, and yes you will need to add structural wood to your floor joists or sill plates to hold up the new subfloor. This would not be good. So there you have it.
Have a good day.
 
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Old 07-30-09, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by HeresJohnny View Post
Nick
You will also want to use a medium bed mortar and a pretty big notch trowel like 1/2" notch or maybe bigger. You'll have to experiment to see which size trowel you'll get 100% coverage with. You will want to back butter each of the tiles as well.
I've never done any tile work before. I always wondered how the notch size effect things. Can you explain? Also, what does back butter mean?

The second layer of plywood, does the grain go in the same direction as the first layer, e.g. perpendicular to the floor joists, or does the grain go perpendicular to the first layer of plywood?

Thanks,
Nick
 
  #21  
Old 07-31-09, 09:07 AM
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I've never done any tile work before. I always wondered how the notch size effect things. Can you explain? Also, what does back butter mean?
For larger format tile like you have, you need more mortar to get the tiles flat to one another and get full coverage. You don't want any voids under those tile.

You want to apply mortar to the back of the tile and burn it into the tile with the flat side of the trowel so that the mortar makes good contact with the entire back of the tile, then immediately set it in the combed out mortar on the floor.

The second layer of plywood, does the grain go in the same direction as the first layer, e.g. perpendicular to the floor joists, or does the grain go perpendicular to the first layer of plywood?
Second layer of plywood goes perpendicular to floor joists same as subfloor. Offset all seams so that they do not line up with the subfloor sheets.
 
  #22  
Old 08-02-09, 12:06 PM
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I'm going to take the advice of all the experts and add 1/2" plywood on top of the existing 5/8". Then ditra and tile. I did some minimal checking of the flatness of the floor with my 4' level. It appears to be pretty flat. I haven't removed all the left over thinset yet so I couldn't check the entire floor. I hope I don't need to flatten afterwards as that might put the transition to the adjoining room too large.

Couple questions:

1. Fastening the two layers; screw only or screw and glue? From the reading I've done it appears screw only, though I've seen some (maybe only one) suggest screw and glue. The screws I've seen suggested are deck screws. Not sure what those are. Is that what they're advertised as in the hardware store, or do I need to be looking for something else?

Also, are these screws self tapping, e.g. I don't need to drill pilot holes do I? And they will counter sink themselves?

2. HeresJohnny recommended a medium bed mortar based on the 12x24 format tile. What is a medium bed mortar? I'm guessing it has to do with the consistency (thickness) of the mortar, is that correct?

3. Nothing goes between the two sheets, right? I did read some posts where they suggest some sort of paper, not sure if that was to reduce squeaking.

Thanks,
Nick
 
  #23  
Old 08-04-09, 04:13 AM
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1. Fastening the two layers; screw only or screw and glue? From the reading I've done it appears screw only, though I've seen some (maybe only one) suggest screw and glue. The screws I've seen suggested are deck screws. Not sure what those are. Is that what they're advertised as in the hardware store, or do I need to be looking for something else?

Also, are these screws self tapping, e.g. I don't need to drill pilot holes do I? And they will counter sink themselves?
You don't need glue, just screws. If you decide that you want to use glue anyway, you need a full spread wood glue. Dont use beads of construction adhesive as that'll leave voids between the two layers of ply. Really all you need is lots of screws, every 8" throughout the field and every 6" around the edges. You can find deck screws at HD, Lowes etc. It'll say deck screws on the box. You wont need to predrill.


2. HeresJohnny recommended a medium bed mortar based on the 12x24 format tile. What is a medium bed mortar? I'm guessing it has to do with the consistency (thickness) of the mortar, is that correct?
Medium bed mortars are for natural stone and larger format ceramic tile. Thinset shrinks when it cures and larger format tiles can sink when the thinset cures. The medium bed mortar can be used in thicker applications and the tiles wont sink. I think the medium bed mortar sold at HD is call Marble and Granite mortar, from Custom Building Products.

3. Nothing goes between the two sheets, right? I did read some posts where they suggest some sort of paper, not sure if that was to reduce squeaking
Nothing needed. Make sure the original subfloor is fastened properly to the the joists. Use as many screws as necessary, you should have no squeaks. You shouldnt have any squeaks between the 2 layers of ply. You'll have used lots of screws to make sure of that.
 
  #24  
Old 08-04-09, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by HeresJohnny View Post
Make sure the original subfloor is fastened properly to the the joists. Use as many screws as necessary, you should have no squeaks.
The original subfloor is nailed to the floor joists. Not sure what type of nails. Should I add additional screws or only add additional screws if I find squeaks?

Thanks,
Nick
 
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Old 08-04-09, 04:13 PM
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A couple extra screws wont hurt.
 
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Old 08-17-09, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by HeresJohnny View Post
You can find deck screws at HD, Lowes etc. It'll say deck screws on the box.
I stopped by HD and didn't find anything that said deck screws on the box (pretty sure I looked thoroughly). Most of the fasteners (nails and screws) were grip tight (I think that was the brand). I also saw deckmate (or deck mate) brand. Is that what you're referring to? They are coated with something and use a star bit for fastening.

The uses on the box said something about good for outdoor use and used for fastening wood to wood.

Thanks,
Nick
 
  #27  
Old 08-17-09, 01:15 PM
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Yes...Deckmate is what you were looking for. The Deck part of the name is kind of a giveaway isn't it? Did you ask while you were there?

Anyway..there are also screws called "exterior" screws..basically they are not much more than drywall screws with a galvanized coating..you DON'T want those.
 
  #28  
Old 08-18-09, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Gunguy45 View Post
Yes...Deckmate is what you were looking for. The Deck part of the name is kind of a giveaway isn't it? Did you ask while you were there?

Anyway..there are also screws called "exterior" screws..basically they are not much more than drywall screws with a galvanized coating..you DON'T want those.
Yes, the Deck part did somewhat give it away, but before I screw in hundreds of them I figured I would confirm I got the correct ones. I didn't ask anyone while I was there as it's sometimes hard to find help.

As I now have a question on sheetrock I'm curious what is the difference between the deckmate screws and drywall screws?

I have a sheetrock question relating to the floor which I'll ask here. Let me know whether it would be better posted to the walls and ceilings forum.

I'm just about done scraping the left over thinset off the subfloor. Then I'll secure the seams that run perpendicular to the floor joists (since it's not tongue and groove) and then I'll be ready to lay down the second layer of plywood. However, I do have some walls that will need to be sheetrocked. Should I sheetrock the walls before putting down the second layer of plywood?

Some walls I had to remove the sheetrock from. Others stayed. I'm wondering where the second layer of plywood runs to with respect to the sheetrock? For walls that didn't need to come down I assume I run the second layer of plywood to the sheetrock. However I did read something about movement joints in the Ditra manual so maybe the second layer of plywood is not supposed to but up against the wall.

For walls that did come down I could run the second layer of plywood right up to the base plate. Even if this is the way to go not sure if I should stop short to provide for a movement joint.

Also, it appears the sheetrock is not run to the floor but instead stops about 1/2" to an 1" short (based on what I see existing). What the recommended procedure?

Thanks,
Nick
 
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Old 08-18-09, 01:29 PM
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Then I'll secure the seams that run perpendicular to the floor joists (since it's not tongue and groove) and then I'll be ready to lay down the second layer of plywood.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Just screw down the original boards so everything is solid, no loose, squeaky, bouncy boards. You'll be adding a layer of plywood over the boards so not being t&g isnt an issue here.

You can install the drywall first. Yeah keep it off the floor a little, the base moulding eventually covers this anyway. Install the plywood leaving a 1/4" gap around the room and a gap of 1/8" or so between plywood sheets. Screw the plywood to the floor boards every 8" or so in the field and every 6" in around the edges. Don't use drywall screws on the floor, use the deck screws. The screws should be long enough that the tips go thru the plywood, and thru the plank board bottoms just a little. No glue is required, and no construction adhesive should be used between the plank boards and the plywood. Just screws.

Plywood should be an exterior glue, cc plugged or better.

Gunguy - nice subtle tip on the screws.
 
  #30  
Old 08-19-09, 05:29 AM
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What I mean with respect to the support for the seams running perpendicular to the floor joists is that since the subfloor is not T&G, which I guess is what's recommended, adding support from below would give me the same effect. I was told that I should do this by using 2x4 flat and screwing it in from above on both sides of the seam (also using glue). Seems like a reasonable thing to do in order to stiffen the seams that are not supported by the floor joists.

Thanks,
Nick
 
  #31  
Old 08-20-09, 10:27 AM
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Ok, I just reread some of this. So you already have plywood subfloor but it isnt t&g. Not sure where I got the planks from If you are adding another layer of plywood, you dont need to do what you propose. Just install the second layer of plywood and forget about the blocking. You'll be offsetting the seams on the second layer of plywood so that there will be full support everywhere.
 
  #32  
Old 09-16-09, 10:44 AM
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Not so much related to my initial question, but as I'm adding this second layer (it's going slow, I know) I noticed what appeared to be crumbling wood under a metal saddle (weatherstripping?) under the door going into the garage. I removed this metal saddle and the wood underneath that was nailed into the subfloor. This wood was a bit damp and smelled.

I was thinking of replacing that wood with pressure treated wood. Does that sound reasonable? It's 3/4" thick, about 2" wide x 30" long. I thought I read something about not using pressure treated wood indoors, but maybe that was about framing with it. I can't remember and my searches here just returned some database error.

Also, should I put anything under this piece of wood to protect the subfloor underneath from getting damp?

By the way, just want to thank all you guys for spending time to answer questions from us less skilled. I really do appreciate it!

Thanks,
Nick
 
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