Need advice on sagging floor


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Old 02-24-15, 09:21 PM
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Lightbulb Need advice on sagging floor

Hello,
I just bought a Multi-Family house about 6 months ago. It's an old house built in 1867. House was renovated back in 99 but the foundation was never touched.

I noticed that the bathroom and bedroom door has a larger gap towards the right side of the door and there are cracks where the wood trims joints. I can also feel that the floor is not leveled around that area. Bedroom and bathroom doors are next to each other.

In the basement, all lolly columns are wooden and some have cracks in them. Main lolly columns are sitting on concrete but some are sitting on the dirt floor.
here is what my basement looks like. Name:  3.jpg
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I'm pretty sure that these columns are dying and need to be replaced. I contacted a local company and they want to charge me about $450 per lolly column and I have about 7 total which adds up to $3150.

Should I attempt to replace these myself? I have seen a bunch of videos and read a lot on it and it seems pretty easy to do with the jacks. Please let me know what you guys suggest? I'm very confused as I don't have the money to get this work done or at least I don't have $3k for this project. This house is in MA.

Thanks
 
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Old 02-24-15, 09:47 PM
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I think a little research is in order, to determine if replacing (any of) the timber columns will help in correcting your sagging floor problems. Poke around the bases of all of them with an ice pick--if the wood is firm and not soft and pulpy, replacing them probably isn't required.

Pictures of the basement ceiling structural members would be helpful if you'd like some suggestions of what we would do to correct the sagging floors.
 
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Old 02-24-15, 09:52 PM
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Wow, what a sweet basement! Love the stone!

Yeah you could DIY. (its Lally, not Lolly) You just need to make sure you have a proper footing (size, depth & psi) underneath. Your pictures don't show the structure being supported, but I would assume that you could easily replace them one at a time by supporting and temporarily jacking them on either side. Hopefully the beam that they are under is still in pretty good shape?
 
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Old 02-25-15, 06:39 AM
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The cracking is not a sign of the columns failing, it's normal checking from uneven drying and does not weaken the column.
You could do this job yourself for about $100.00 each.
As mention the key is a proper footing.
Around here we use a 24" X 24" X 8" thick footing with 4 pieces of 1/2" rebar in the middle.
Concrete Calculator - The Concrete Network
 
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Old 02-25-15, 08:10 AM
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Thank you. I will take pictures of the cracks and also pictures of basement ceiling today and post them here.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 08:30 AM
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Should I sit the Lally column on it the footing after it dries out or sink it in while its wet?
 
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Old 02-25-15, 10:02 AM
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It's never a good idea to embed wood in concrete, you would want to install a bracket into the concrete to secure the post to.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 10:34 AM
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I guess I was imagining a steel column, not a wood one, Mark... since he mentioned "lally column" which implies steel. A wood post is not a "lally" column, it's just a post.

Steel could be either embedded in the concrete or fastened to a footing with anchors, provided the steel had a flange. If you use an adjustable column, it can no longer be adjustable after it's installed, you have to adjust it to where you want it, then it must be embedded in the concrete.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 10:37 AM
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You don't want to embed steel or wood into concrete, they will both rot over time. Pour your footings and let them set for at least a week before setting anything on them. Use steel jack posts to replace your wood ones.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 10:50 AM
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Keith, using that sort of logic would mean you shouldn't put rebar in concrete.

Code requires embedded posts to be coated. As I mentioned, anchoring a column on top of a pad is another alternative. It would require a custom made post that is cut to the exact height needed, which is not always practical or cost effective.

IRC code:Chapter 4 - Foundations

Inspecting Adjustable Steel Columns | The ASHI Reporter | Inspection News & Views from the American Society of Home Inspectors

Telescoping jack posts (adjustable) are not allowed as a permanent column in the US by code. Permanent adjustable columns are, provided they meet code for size and type.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 11:06 AM
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A column is exposed to a lot more air than rebar, which will accelerate the rusting process. Rebar is also a lot thicker than that of steel post walls. Using a jack post you can easily adjust the height of it to accommodate the space you have to work with. While there is some debate about whether jack posts can be used as permanent posts, they are allowed by Canadian building codes (and I assume US as well) provided they meet certain standards. I have yet to see one fail due to insufficient strength, however, I have seen many rust off that were embedded in concrete in the floor or footings. Just my experiance.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 02:08 PM
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If steel members are thin enough, they will corrode (not rot) when embedded in concrete. That's why thicker steel sections are used for commercial buildings and bridge foundations, where support columns are designed to be embedded in concrete for proper load distribution.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 02:36 PM
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Interim summary: OP doesn't have big bucks to sink into this project if the wood posts will do, and no one has disagreed about the cracks. The cracks are normal and do not affect the strength of the wood. So - I gather he's supposed to poke his ice pick or narrow screwdriver into each side of the post to see if the wood is still good at the base, correct?
 
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Old 02-25-15, 03:23 PM
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Marynurse, FYI...

I noticed that the bathroom and bedroom door has a larger gap towards the right side of the door and there are cracks where the wood trims joints. I can also feel that the floor is not leveled around that area.
some are sitting on the dirt floor.
Whether or not they are soft is besides the point. If the guy wants to rectify the sagging, the wood posts need to go, irregardless. I suppose there is a scenario that might involve reusing the posts, or replacing with wood but I wouldn't even broach that subject...

Keith, US and Canadian codes differ on this subject. You can research the differences if you like. (diameter, thickness, adjustable and telescoping) You have probably seen columns rust off because Canada allows uncoated narrow diameter telescoping adjustable columns to be used.

We also aren't giving advice to someone in Canada.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 05:40 PM
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I understand. Canadian codes require all metal posts and beams to be coated, with steel posts a minimum 3" dia. 1/4" steel. My thinking is that if they are strong enough to do the job here safely, they will be strong enough to do the job in MA. Perhaps the adjustable posts you have available are not to the same standard we use. In this situation, adjustable posts are ideal as they will allow you to slowly jack the beams straight over months, rather than trying to do it all at once. The OP can take that advice for what it is worth to him.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 06:33 PM
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Sounds like maybe they have upgraded their standards then. Last I heard, they didn't have the 3" diameter requirement or the thickness requirement. That's good.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 08:53 PM
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Ah, now I see why all the conversation about steel. It's not clear from the progression that wood had been ruled out.
 
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Old 02-26-15, 03:40 AM
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These standards have been in place for at least the past 30 years
 
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Old 02-26-15, 05:59 AM
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That's strange, because (not to belabor the point) from what I can see, in Canada the Canadian code standard is NBC 2010, Article 9.17.3.4.(1) and CAN/CGSB-7.2-94. This code doesn't seem to require 3" columns or a 1/4" thickness as you have stated.

Instead, (for example) the column listed here qualifies under Canadian code. It would not qualify under US code, as it is both telescoping and adjustable (not for permanent use in US), less than 3"... (inner tube is 2 1/2"), and at 11 & 12 gauge, its .125 & .104" thickness wouldn't get the approved sticker in the US. These are the sort of posts that the OP should not use... AND the sort that would corrode if set in concrete, like you mentioned... so I agree that posts like that should be avoided.
 
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Old 02-26-15, 06:30 AM
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You are right, those are the ones. I was going by memory for the steel thickness; they are indeed not 1/4". My statement stands though, if they will hold up a house in Canada, they will hold up a house in the US. That can be taken for what it's worth. I would still never embed a steel post in concrete. There is not reason to if they are installed right, and will last longer sitting on top . No matter how you look at it, it will be better than the wood posts that are there now. Interesting how codes can vary in certain areas.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 02:27 PM
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Sorry I couldn't upload all the pictures here but I uploaded them to the my house blog. House Blog Please let me know what you guys think if I should replace my wood jack post.

Thanks
 
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Old 02-27-15, 06:12 PM
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If your goal is to try and take the sag out of the floor, I would change the wood posts to metal jack posts on new footings, jacking the floor higher over time (1/2 turn per month) until the floor is where you want it.

If you only want to ensure what you have does not sag any further, as long as the bottom of the wood posts are not rotting now, and are sitting on something solid, there is no reason to change them right away.

Some of the posts look like they are supporting the floor boards directly. I would investigate what they are holding and perhaps put a proper structure under them.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 06:40 PM
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One column looks like the base is pretty much wasted. The newer supports that are holding up the subfloor itself are really not doing much in the grand scheme of things. Here is how to upload pictures directly so that we are not distracted by other pictures on your blog. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...rt-images.html

Are there any pictures that show the exact area of sag and how it is having an effect on the upstairs living area?
 
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Old 02-28-15, 02:33 PM
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If your goal is to try and take the sag out of the floor, I would change the wood posts to metal jack posts on new footings, jacking the floor higher over time (1/2 turn per month) until the floor is where you want it.

If you only want to ensure what you have does not sag any further, as long as the bottom of the wood posts are not rotting now, and are sitting on something solid, there is no reason to change them right away.

Some of the posts look like they are supporting the floor boards directly. I would investigate what they are holding and perhaps put a proper structure under them.

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ba...#ixzz3T573f9o7
Couple of posts that are supporting the boards directly are directly under the kitchen which has tiles. Previous owners didn't really care it seems like and just put something temporarily to sell the house. While I was taking pictures, I found one of the joist is completely cracked from the middle. I think there is a picture of it. I will now remove the insulation and sister it with a new one. I had a contractor come in and give me a quote to replace all the wood columns with steel with proper footing and sistering the joist. He first gave me $9.5K then went down to $7.5K. I still feel like this is way too much just to replace columns and one joist.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 02:59 PM
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That's quite a bit more than I would pay. Especially since it's not a particularly difficult job for the reasonably-handy DIYer. With the help of a few ambitious friends, a couple of long weekends' work effort ought to do it. At a total material cost of less than $1000 or so.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 03:17 PM
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I agree, $7,500 is WAY too much for the amount of work involved and the materials. If I were doing this where I live, I might charge $2,500 max, but even that seems excessive to me. It is less than two days work for a pro, and materials should be under $1,000.

One more thing, if you have tiles above this, no matter what you do, expect some to crack, even if you dont jack anything stright. If you do decide to strighten it out, you will definately need to replace the tile work.
 

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Old 02-28-15, 03:46 PM
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I have to ask... who did you have tied up on this chair?

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Sorry, sometimes I can't help myself. LOL
 
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Old 03-05-15, 05:15 PM
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One more thing, if you have tiles above this, no matter what you do, expect some to crack, even if you dont jack anything stright. If you do decide to strighten it out, you will definately need to replace the tile work.
Keith thank you for the heads up, The good thing is only the kitchen area and bathroom are tile floor. If I was to jack the house a little, Do you know if it will effect the 2nd floor? I have tenants living on the second floor. They also have tiles in the kitchen area and the bathroom. Second floor seems to be leveled all the doors closed properly and I did not see any cracks there.
 
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Old 03-05-15, 05:18 PM
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I have to ask... who did you have tied up on this chair?
Haha you know when I was looking to buy the house and went down to the basement for viewing, that was the first thing I thought too and I was looking for the body haha. On a serious note, I guess they were using the chair as a step stool.
 
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Old 03-05-15, 05:27 PM
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Any movement in the basement will affect all the floors above it. It really depends on how much care is taken to minimise that movement as to whether or not your tiles will crack, or how bad. The second floor is less likely to have problems, but don't be surprised to see some.
 
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Old 03-06-15, 04:47 PM
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What type of wood should I use in the basement? Home depot has 50 different kind it looks like... I need to sister couple of joists. One joist is completely cracked all the way through. Should I sister the joist all the through? Its about 20 feet wide more or less. I'll most likely start the project tomorrow.
 
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Old 03-06-15, 06:55 PM
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If the joist crack runs the full length, then yes, plan to sister a new joist to it for the full length, or as close as you can get to full length. Doing so will address both shear and bending moment stresses. If the cracked joist is sagging appreciably, it's best to raise it to an undeflected position, using a few wedged 4 x 4s, before gluing and screwing the new joist to it. Predrilling pilot holes in the new joist will help considerably, in drawing it up tight to the existing one. Temporarily clamping the 2 joists together will also make things easier. Your lumber selection in 20-foot lengths is likely to be quite limited. I'd suggest using Doug fir or southern pine, if available, while staying away from lower-strength white wood.
 
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Old 03-07-15, 08:45 PM
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I ran into a problem. My joist is cracked pretty bad. there is probably an inch of space between the 2 cracks. I felt if I raised the joist, it'll crack the joist even more. Should I bolt or screw the gaps first before jacking it up a little and then sistering it?

This Beam or joist is 6x8. 6 inches wide and 8 inches tall.
 
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Old 03-08-15, 04:13 AM
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Put one of your jacks under the crack to close it up and then work on raising the joist to where it needs to be.
 
 

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