Bleeding through primer.


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Old 11-10-13, 10:12 AM
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Bleeding through primer.

So I have old woodwork that I painting. I believe it has been stained and varnished. I've used the Zinnser blue can in the past and still had some bleed through of the old finish. The color is a like a deep reddish brown. So I am trying the Zinnser red can which I was pretty sure is tinted shellac. I'm having the same problem with the bleed through.

I have some waterbourne shellac that I tried on some other trim and it helped a little bit, but not totally blocked. The fact that it was waterbourne kind of makes it hard to brush on.

Any feedback would be appreciated.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 10:23 AM
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I've never seen anything that 2 coats of B-I-N wouldn't lock in and cover. You may still see it thru the primer but after 2 coats of your wuall paint it should hide it. I know that sometimes a grey primet base can be used to cancel out hard to cover colors like reds... pinks... etc.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 10:33 AM
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Hmm. I'll try two coats of the primer then. When I say it's bleeding through, it's mixing with the primer and coming through.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 10:42 AM
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That makes me wonder if the finish on your wood is also a shellac.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 01:52 PM
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It could be, but that would happen with the Zinnser blue can as well. And it continues to come through the paint on top. Not as much, but I can see the color difference.
 
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Old 11-11-13, 04:22 AM
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It sounds like the primer is partially dissolving the existing finish but after the 1st coat of pigmented shellac is dry - that should stop the bleeding. I'd be surprised if there were any issues after the 2nd coat of primer.

What prep did you do prior to applying the primer?
 
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Old 11-11-13, 06:37 AM
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Which red can? Zinsser has 2 red can primers now--the original alcohol-thinned shellac and a "synthetic shellac" that's just water clean-up acrylic. Since shellac doesn't react with most types of varnishes & lacquers, it's best to use the original alcohol-thinned shellac as a coverup or between incompatible finishes.

There's a very slim possibility your woodwork is shellaced. Try rubbing a little plain alcohol on it to see if it melts the finish.
 
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Old 11-11-13, 12:35 PM
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My prep work consisted of blowing off the dust.

The can says Zinnser BIN. Shellac based. The content list of the can lists denatured alcohol and says to use denatured alcohol for cleanup. I assume this is the real deal.
 
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Old 11-11-13, 02:08 PM
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Did you stir the BIN up well? The solids like to settle to the bottom leaving more thinner than pigmented shellac above it. Extra thinner would tend to melt the existing shellac. Have you tried a 2nd coat yet?
 
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Old 11-11-13, 02:59 PM
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I did stir it. Not sure if I got a good stir at first because it was spilling out of the can. I was able to put a second coat on a small part of it today. Looks pretty good to my eye.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 03:37 PM
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After the second coat went on, the primer crackled. What's up with that?
 
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Old 11-15-13, 04:03 PM
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Maybe 2nd coat was put on too thick or you backbrushed over paint you just applied that had skimmed over?
 
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Old 11-15-13, 04:07 PM
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Definitely wasn't put on too thick. Actually, I think it is impossible to put ZInnser BIN on too thick. It would just run off the wall. As for back brushing over partially cured, I don't think it is that either. I know what that looks like. This is definite crackle. You can see the wood underneath.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 04:52 PM
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Hmm. Sounds like a question for the mfg. If the initial surface was waxy, that would affect the adhesion of the first coat... and I know that dry times would be longer in cool temps.

I think I'd try brushing on some straight denatured alcohol, followed by a scuff sanding and see how that affects the crackle finish.

From their website pdf...

Dry Time – In most cases B-I-N will dry to the touch in 20 minutes and can be recoated in 45 minutes. The dry primer film develops full adhesion after it cures in 1 to 3 days. Lower temperatures, higher humidity and the addition of tint will prolong dry and cure time.

Application Conditions – Apply when air and surface temperature is between 0° and 90° F (-18° and 32° C) and relative humidity is less than 70%. Do not apply B-I-N if surface temperature is within 15% of the dew point. Substrate moisture content should not exceed 12%.

Surface Preparation - Surfaces should be clean, dry, sound and free of dust, dirt, excessive chalky material, grime, grease, oil, wax, mildew, wallpaper adhesive or any contamination that may interfere with adhesion. If unsure, always wash surface with a household ammonia and water solution, appropriate cleaning solution, or solvent (Do not use TSP as a cleaner).
 
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Old 11-15-13, 06:00 PM
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Sounds like you didn't stir it enough. The shaker at the store is never enough with BIN. You really have to dig around on the bottom of the can like Marksr said. The solids in BIN always settle to the bottom.

Consider it like stirring a soup that's burned to the bottom of the pot. You have to get all the debris from the bottom mixed well, otherwise you're only using part of the solution. This can take several minutes of stirring.

I've seen BIN do this in cans and also in the aerosol version if you don't shake it enough. I mean LOTS. Lots of lots.

BIN can be a pain to work with.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 06:31 PM
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There is no doubt I had it stirred. Surface contamination seems the most likely culprit as I did not do any.
 
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Old 11-16-13, 04:12 AM
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Normally if a surface contaminate is the cause, the 1st coat of primer will get the little cracks. Is it possible the 1st coat cracked and you didn't notice it until you applied the 2nd?

If you are positive you stir up all the solids that tend to settle to the bottom it's possible you got a bad batch of primer. Once thoroughly mixed, BIN isn't any thinner than other paints/primers and because of it's quick drying and set up time it is possible to apply it too thick.

Sanding will remove the cracks. If there are any adhesion issues they will become apparent while you are sanding.
 
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Old 11-16-13, 05:10 AM
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I used a cheap throw away brush on the first coat. So application wasn't quite as even. It is possible it cracked and I didn't notice.

Shellac in general is much thinner than paint. Even with the pigments added in BIN, I find it to be much thinner. I could run it through a ZAHNS cup and get actual numbers.
 
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Old 11-16-13, 05:22 AM
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Yep, I've always found BIN to be pretty thin stuff. Even if you do stir it thoroughly you always have to watch for drips.
 
 

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