Shed floor out of square

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Old 11-07-16, 07:47 AM
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Shed floor out of square

Hi,

I built the frame for my 10 x 18 shed floor over the weekend, but it is 3 inches out of square. The front and back measurements and side to side measurements are equal, but diagonals are not (and obviously corners are not all perfectly square).

If I forge ahead with building the rest of it, it seems I will have a bunch of issues with walls, roof, doors and windows potentially lining up properly. Should I get in there now with a sawzall or some other tool and remove all the floor joists? I have a double rim joist as well, so I'd have to remove those also. Would I then just get a couple of ratchet straps on the outside frame and get it squared up and start dropping floor joists back in again? I'm gonna end up hacking up the ends of the joists in the process if I do this, so I may have to cut them down a 1/2 inch or so on each end, not sure yet. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks

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Old 11-07-16, 07:50 AM
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Assuming you made equal cuts on your lumber I'd see if I could pull it back into square. You should just need to move one corner to get the rest to fall inline.
 
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Old 11-07-16, 08:32 AM
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A sledgehammer will help you square it up. Block the opposite corner so it cant move. I suppose a come-along would also work.
 
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Old 11-07-16, 09:03 AM
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If the front/back ad the side/side dimensions are equal, you can square the frame by making the diagonal dimensions the same. You need to work on the longer diagonal. Brace one corner of the longer diagonal and try hitting opposite corner with a sledge. If that doesn't work, attach eye bolts to the corners of the long diagonal and use a come along to pull the two corners in until the diagonals are same dimension. If the corners spring back when the come along is released, you can attach the flooring while the come along is holding diagonals to the same dimension or pull the long diagonal until it is less than equal and let it spring back, hopefully to equal dimensions. Good luck
 
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Old 11-07-16, 09:03 AM
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I use a sledge hammer to pound it into square. If it springs back or you can't get it square use a heavy ratchet strap or come-along across the corners to pull it into square. Then once it's square put down your floor sheeting. Once that's down it will hold square.
 
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Old 11-07-16, 09:24 AM
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I use a ratcheting tie down strap or a come-a-long diagonally to get them square.
 
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Old 11-09-16, 05:32 PM
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Thank you all for the helpful responses, it's a big relief knowing I can work with what's there and not have to tear it apart first. I have a couple of 20 foot ratchet straps so I'll try that route first.
 
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Old 11-09-16, 09:02 PM
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If you are going to use straps, it will probably make life easier if you install a couple eyelets on each corner of the long diagonal so you can hook the ratchet strap to them. If it's 3" out of square you will need to move it 1 1/2". In other words, if one diagonal measures 20' 6" while the other diagonal measures 20' 3", the dimension you are after is 20' 4 1/2".

Ooops, I see Bob already mentioned the eyelets.
 
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Old 11-13-16, 06:52 PM
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The eye bolts and ratchet straps idea worked wonderfully - I was impressed how it easy it was to make those adjustments after all that lumber had already been nailed together.

I finished building the first wall today, have a few questions on some of the next steps though:

- Is zip system OSB OK if it gets wet during construction? Not the green side, the osb side. Assume so, but I know OSB can swell and fall apart in wet weather. This would be once the walls start going up, before I put the roof on.

- I wasn't sure what to do with the sheathing on the wall ends, so I went flush with the last 2 x 4. As you can see below, I hacked up one side a good deal with the circular saw (still learning how to control it free hand). This is the back wall, which runs the full 18 feet across the back of 10 x 18 shed. Is this supposed to "meet" the sheathing from the side wall ends? If so, whoops.

- I left about 3/4" - 1" above the single top plate for now (see below), before putting on the second top plate later. I didn't go the full 1.5" since I wanted to leave a little room for the rafter tail. Does this sound reasonable?

- I went flush with the zip board along the bottom plate, but am thinking it may be a good idea to have a couple inches overhang with the other walls to shed any water down past the floor. The sheathing on the other ends would need to be cleaned up a little first (again the whole free-handed circular saw didn't leave the cleanest lines on the floor edges either).

- The gable end wall framing: The end wall will look similar to the one below, with probably a few more studs (and also a support for a ridge board). Since everything above the double top plate is tied into the rafters could I just build the wall from floor to top plate and finish when I'm ready to do the roof?

Thanks much for help with any of the above questions, it's greatly appreciated.Name:  Shed side of zip.jpg
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Old 11-13-16, 07:30 PM
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- Is zip system OSB OK... if it gets wet during construction?

Those of us who live in the real world know that this is not a problem, it's a reality.

- Is this supposed to "meet" the sheathing from the side wall ends? If so, whoops.

Sheathing on corners should line up in shiplap fashion, creating a square corner, not a 1/2" square notch. Your zip tape should not have a big void behind it on the corners.

- I left about 3/4" - 1" above the single top plate for now (see below), before putting on the second top plate later. I didn't go the full 1.5" since I wanted to leave a little room for the rafter tail. Does this sound reasonable?

1 1/4 to no more than 1 1/2. You certainly don't want it sticking up beyond the double top plate, but you do need to nail the perimeter off to the doubled top plate for shear, so you want as much sheathing as possible without sticking over. Too little and your shear nailing is ineffective and a nor'easter rips your roof off and takes the upper top plate with it.

- I went flush with the zip board along the bottom plate, but am thinking it may be a good idea to have a couple inches overhang with the other walls to shed any water down past the floor.

You always want the sheathing to overhang the foundation or in your case the rim. In your case, it should "completely" cover your rim... AND the bottom of your rim/floor joists should be 6-8" off the ground to keep your siding that far above grade. This means using 9' sheets on 8' walls if hung vertically. If your sheathing is run horizontally, all horizontal seams must be fully supported and nailed to solid blocking between each stud.

- The gable end wall framing: The end wall will look similar to the one below, with probably a few more studs (and also a support for a ridge board). Since everything above the double top plate is tied into the rafters could I just build the wall from floor to top plate and finish when I'm ready to do the roof?

I don't understand what you are asking. I usually frame in the gable (what's above the double top plate) after the roof is on and all the sheathing is on. The sheathing fully extends up onto that outside rafter, then barge rafters are added later if you want soffit and fascia. Hope that is what you are after.

Is this building anchored to anything or is it built to be a UFO?
 
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Old 11-15-16, 11:54 AM
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Xsleeper, your response is a huge help, it's much appreciated. I'm not sure how to get a shiplap style joint on the zip board - I guess a router would do the trick.

As far as the sheathing on the top plate, thinking about it some more, I think simply measuring from sheathing to sheathing on either end for the rafters allows the sheathing thickness to be accounted for, and thus wouldn't have to cut it short.

I'll have to keep my eyes open but I think most of the reputable shed companies in my area do not overhang the sheathing down the rim joist much, if at all. Seems like a no brainer to at least overhang it enough to sufficiently cover an inch or two down.

Didn't realize there should be blocking if the wall sheathing is hung horizontally, that is interesting and must be an IRC requirement, as again haven't seen on the sheds locally.

Yes, you answered my question on the end wall framing, so thank you for that. It will be much easier to just frame from plate to plate and then finish the part above the top plate after the rafters are on.

The shed sits freely on 8 x 16 concrete blocks, so no anchoring.
 
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Old 11-15-16, 12:00 PM
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What I mean by shiplap is that if the sheathing on one side is flush with the framing, the sheathing on the other side should extend all the way out to the corner, to form an overlapping square corner.
 
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Old 11-15-16, 10:25 PM
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Ok, I get it, that's what I figured to do anyway.

Any thoughts on what to do with the wall I already built for covering the edge of the floor (i.e. to shed water down past the floor), maybe some sort of flashing? Not sure whether the vinyl siding will cover it once I put that on, which may not be until next spring.

Thanks
 
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Old 11-15-16, 10:30 PM
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Maybe use zip tape to cover the edge? You can get extra wide starter strip when you go to put the siding on... it will hang down farther than the standard stuff.
 
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Old 11-16-16, 12:21 PM
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Thank you for the response - that sounds like a workable approach for now and for when the siding eventually goes on.
 
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Old 11-17-16, 10:55 AM
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Well the wall jacks worked great to get the first wall up. Except for the fact that the wall went straight over the side and is now sitting upside down on the ground.

I'm by myself here. No idea how I'm going to get this fixed. Any ideas are much appreciated. ThanksName:  Shed wall jacks tipped over.jpg
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Old 11-17-16, 11:08 AM
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Working solo has it's challenges. Obviously the first step is to get the bottom plate back up on the floor. Lifting it up and setting in props will help. Sometimes it's beneficial to screw the props to the studs to help hold it, maybe props attached to both sides until you get it in place.

Ideally you'd find a recruit to help you set the walls in place
 
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Old 11-17-16, 11:20 AM
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Thanks for the help. I don't have props, but plenty of blocks of wood. This is going to be a mess.
 
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Old 11-17-16, 11:27 AM
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No extra 2x4s laying around? Once you get it in place and the bottom plate nailed down you will still need lumber to secure that wall to an adjoining wall's base to hold it in place until you get another stud wall erected. making a triangle with the temporary piece of lumber.
 
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Old 11-17-16, 11:33 AM
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I have plenty of 2 x 4, I meant I don't have the steel props. Yes, I was about to brace the walls as you described when it tipped over.
 
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Old 11-17-16, 11:38 AM
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If you put one screw in the prop before you stand up the wall you have a better chance of hanging onto it as you wrestle the wall in place.
I've set props without screws and had them fall away just as I was about to secure them
 
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Old 11-17-16, 12:31 PM
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Yikes. Well, lesson learned. That's a job for at least 2 people.

One thing that might help when you frame the next wall... chalk a line on the subfloor to represent where the inside edge of the plate will sit. After you make your pair of plates and get the stud and header locations laid out, lay the bottom plate where it will go. Take a 12" piece of metal strap (on job sites we use short pieces of the metal banding that bundles of lumber are bound with, but a strip of sheet metal would also work) nail one end to the top of your bottom plate with a short roof nail. (Do this about every 4' or so... the strap will extend out over the edge of building, away from you.) Then lift the plate up and bend the straps tightly around what will be the exterior side and bottom of the bottom plate and nail it again. Then set the plate down on the chalk line and nail the straps to the floor with one roof nail. Now bend the bottom plate toward you so that it "hinges" on the chalk line. Now you can nail your wall together.

Once assembled, and you go to tip the wall up, your bottom plate will be exactly where it needs to go, (on the chalk line) and all you will have to worry about is not letting it flop over. Usually one guy will hold the wall while the other guy shoots on the temporary braces. A short 2x4 cleat goes on the floor, and ONE end of a long 2x4 brace is nailed to the side of a stud. Once the wall has been plumbed with a plate level, then the OTHER end of the brace is nailed to the cleat. Use 2 or 3 nails if you don't want it to move.

Your braces should stay in place until ALL the walls are assembled and the roof is on and is sheeted. Then they can come off.

If you are working alone and you want to be sure the wall doesn't flop over too far, build yourself a vertical pole on the outside that is staked and braced so as to stay solid and plumb.
 
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Old 11-17-16, 04:41 PM
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Thank you both for the follow up, it's very helpful.

marksr - will screw on braces to the studs next time so that they are ready to tack on when I'm near plumb. Glad to know I'm not the only genius to have a wall tip over trying to put it up.

XSleeper - someone vaguely mentioned the steel banding attached to the bottom plate / floor on a different forum, but I didn't understand - your explanation is perfect and sounds like a good idea, I'll give it a shot on the other walls. I like this approach better than toenailing the bottom plate from the interior.

I did have two short 2 x 4's tacked on the rim joist as I put the first wall up, but each one only had one nail, not even fully driven in (so it would be easier to remove). This time I'll add a few extra blocks and secure them better.

Oh, and I did manage to get the wall back on the floor in the same position as before - had to drag it back onto the deck, lift with the jacks until it tipped over the other way (purposely this time) and drag it back onto the deck, so I'm back to square one. Not a fun afternoon but lesson learned for sure.

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Last edited by aerodan1; 11-17-16 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 11-18-16, 03:41 AM
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On your next long wall it might be easier to build it in 2 sections and then after each are up, nail a 2nd top plate on to tie them together. Takes a little more lumber but is easier when working alone.
 
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Old 11-18-16, 05:11 PM
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Thanks for the tip - that might be an option since the front long wall will have to be raised by hand.

Does it matter how long the 2 x 4 braces are? If I have only 8 footers available would that suffice? One site says one long brace on the end of one wall and a short brace on the opposite side. Another side advocates for a 45 degree angle between the brace and the wall, nailed 8 feet high. I see a lot of pictures of braced walls with longer pieces of lumber but don't see any explanations of why they are needed (I assume it would at least make it easier to make smaller adjustments with a longer piece of lumber).

Thanks!
 
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Old 11-18-16, 06:59 PM
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I'm trying to figure out why your not just framing the wall and standing it first, a lot less weight and easier to manage for one person. Everything else can be put on afterward and much easier than struggling with something that heavy.
 
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Old 11-18-16, 09:20 PM
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Two other questions came to mind:

- How can I sheathe the side walls before raising - since the sheathing will extend past the wall studs on both sides by 3.5" to meet the sheathing on the end walls, it would be too wide to raise with the front and back walls in place. The front and back walls have to go up first since they both span the entire width, so the side walls would be in the way on the edges if put them up first. I guess I could sheathe to the stud edges and put in a strip on either side, as long as everything was perfectly square.

- Can the zip board interior (OSB side) get wet? Roof won't be on and some rain is forecast for Sunday morning. I do have a big tarp I can probably cover the entire shed with.

Thanks much.
 
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Old 11-18-16, 09:23 PM
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Ron53, I will have to use this approach for the front wall since there won't be enough room (shed depth is only 10 feet) to use the wall jacks to help raise it. I think it would be more difficult to square it up and put on the sheathing by myself.
 
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Old 11-26-16, 07:41 PM
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All of the walls are up and plumbed - two of them (in opposite corners) have a gap between the walls and two of them (the other opposite corners) don't have any gap. I could substantially close the two gaps by bringing in the wall corners, but then it would be out of plumb. Since the walls are built and sheathed already not sure the best approach before I nail the ends together.

There are 4 pictures below, two rows of side by side pics.

Thanks

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Old 11-27-16, 04:37 AM
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I'd draw them up tight and then nail it. There is no such thing as a perfectly built structure. It's better for it to be secure than perfectly plumb.
 
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Old 11-27-16, 07:08 AM
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If you aren't using a "plate level" that touches the top and bottom plates at the same time, I would say you have an error somewhere that you don't know about. Could be that the floor is out of level... could be that the walls aren't as plumb as you think. (The shorter the level, the less accurate it is, since you are only plumbing a short section of wall with it.) Studs that aren't straight as an arrow can also be the culprit. Or not having your walls square when the sheathing is put on. There are a lot of factors that can potentially all add up to create an incremental error if you are even the slightest bit off on any one of the above.

That's one reason why framing the walls, plumbing them, THEN sheeting them (as someone suggested in another thread) usually results in less headaches and better final result.
 
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Old 11-27-16, 10:46 AM
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Thanks marksr, that sounds logical (my instinct would have been to nail it plumb instead so I was probably wrong).

Xsleeper, I have a "Larry Haun" type level - shorter bubble level duct taped to a straight 6 or 7 foot 2 x 4 with plywood feet on each end. So no it's not long enough to touch top and bottom plate, but covers most of the wall stud.

I see your point on framing everything prior to sheathing, it lets you fine tune all the walls together at once. I'll secure the walls together and nail it, thanks to both of you for the help.
 
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Old 12-03-16, 08:15 PM
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Getting ready to frame the roof tomorrow. While putting the 2nd top plate on today I noticed 2 of the corners don't line up at the top. They do line up at the bottom - see below pics. I plumbed the walls before nailing together (or so I thought). Any suggestions on how to proceed? I could try to remove the nails holding the walls together. If it's not a huge deal I will just leave and put a strip of zip board and tape it up (but it will be uneven) for now and vinyl side in the spring. Thanks!Name:  Shed 12.3 1.jpg
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Old 12-03-16, 09:05 PM
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shorter bubble level duct taped
That explains it. More like a Red Green level.

And why exactly doesn't your sheathing meet at the corners??? I'd suggest you throw that torpedo level as far as you can and nail your walls together tight so that the framing lines up... not like in your last picture on top. Pull nails with a cats paw or cut them with a sawzall, either way fix it so the framing lines up.
 
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Old 12-04-16, 05:48 PM
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I don't think the level was a hack idea - I got the idea from Larry Haun after all. Anyways, the back wall was already up when I built the side wall, which I sheathed on the floor - that's why the sheathing doesn't meet, just needs a filler strip.

I did as you suggested and used a mini hacksaw to trim off the old nails and lined up the top corners of the side / back walls. Still though, I must have put the crown of the end of wall stud facing in - the filler strip is still going to stick way out along most of the stud length.

I'm also hoping to have a small overhang on the gable end walls, about 3 1/2 inches, which is the same overhang I built into the rafter tails for the eaves. For such a small overhang, I don't think I would need notched lookouts or barge rafters, just extending the sheeting over the edge I think would be ok - anyone seen this before?

Thanks much.
 
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Old 12-04-16, 06:20 PM
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Your bow can probably be corrected if when you cut the corner loose, you line it up bit by bit, starting at the bottom and work your way up. Once it lines up, nail that spot then push the top plate out farther to line up the part you need to nail next, etc... working your way up to the top. Yes, like I said, using studs that aren't straight leads to the problem. Im not even going to argue about the torpedo level... not worth the effort to convince you otherwise. Suffice to say, it didnt work too well or your walls would all be plumb.

On your gable end, add 2 additional rafters to the exterior side of the sheathing once that is framed and sheeted. That will give you a 3" overhang.
 
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Old 12-07-16, 10:38 PM
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Thank you for the words of wisdom - I used the method suggested to fix the wall corner. It's not 100% perfect, but much better than before. I will also go with the double gable end rafters to give me a 3 inch overhang. You've been a tremendous help in this build so thank you very much!

Also I have attached a pic of the homemade level I made, with plywood feet on each end - would you suggest investing in a good 6 foot level for future use? HF sells a cheapie for about $20.
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Old 12-08-16, 04:01 AM
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I recently bought one of those HF 6' levels but haven't used it yet. How long is your level? IMO you need at least a 4' level. While I've set a level on top of an 8' or longer 2x, I've always considered that a temporary deal - it's hard to find a perfectly straight 2x.
 
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Old 12-08-16, 07:05 AM
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Question for the forum topic moderator. What criteria do you use to keep a post like this under "Todays Posts". 75 percent of the responses have nothing to do with the post title "Shed floor out of square." I have seen other posts of a generic nature, not necessarily under your forum, that are listed under "Todays Posts" for only 1 day.
 
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Old 12-08-16, 07:11 AM
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New posts show all the new threads or threads with new post since the last time you logged on. Today's posts goes back further - I'm not sure if it's thread count or back to a certain time [maybe 24 hrs] You can subscribe to a thread which would send you email notifications any time there is a post made to that thread.
 
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