Magee oven (Inoperative Safety Element) question


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Old 07-17-13, 09:42 AM
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Magee oven (Inoperative Safety Element) question

Hi,

I have an old Magee, gas and gas, stove, and it has what seems to be the usual problem.

The stove is at least 30, and probably more like 40 or more years old. I cannot find a model number on the unit. Do you, by any chance, no where it might be?

So the problems started with the pilot light not staying lit. Then the oven turned off shortly after it was lit.

I cleaned the pilot, and it seems to be all right, but the oven is still going off. I can tell you that the gas goes off all at once after maybe a minute or so. Maybe that will help diagnose the problem.

The primary pilot lights a secondary pilot when the oven is turned on. The secondary pilot heats up when I take to be a Mercury switch, it looks like a miniature thermocouple but I was once told that it isn't that.

There is a braided wire that goes from the thing that is heated up to a small trapezoidal box connected to the gas line going to the oven.

The part number on that box is 63G2833N. There is some ambiguity about the first "3" because it is stamped over a ridge.

Can you give me any information on what kind of safety valve it is? Is it possible to replace it? Is there anyone who can repair it?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Phil King
 
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Old 07-18-13, 02:28 PM
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Are you able to post a picture of the pilot and gas valve?
 
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Old 07-18-13, 11:34 PM
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I know of them but haven't seen one in a while. There are places that specialize in parts for those unit. In the links below.....one is a private servicing company and the other is a link to a thread here in the archives.

Dave's Appliance Inc. Gas and Gas Ranges
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ga...ety-valve.html
 
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Old 07-19-13, 09:13 AM
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The first pictures I took were too large, and it finally occurred to me that I could change the settings on the camera. So I took more pictures, and they are certainly smaller. I'm not sure whether I should "attach" them or "insert an image," so I did both.

Attachment 15362

If it doesn't work, please let me know, and I will try something else.

On one of the earlier, high-resolution, pictures, it looks as if the serial number is 63G2823N

Thank you for your help.

Phil
 

Last edited by ppllkk; 07-19-13 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 07-19-13, 02:30 PM
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Hello Phil. Welcome to Gas Appliances topic and our Do-It-Yourself Web Site.

OOPS! Neither attachment nor insert photo worked. Try again or post the photos to a photo posting site. Then enter the link to it and the photos.

My guess is the safety is likely a fluid or vapor safety element screwed into the gas control valve. It's a cap tube with vapor or fluid in the element. Vapor or fluid expands when heated by the larger flame which in turn pushes a pin in the gas control valve, on which the burner tube sits, to open the valve and lets the gas pass thru to the burner. Reason why one end of the safety is screwed directly into the gas valve.

If the above is correct, reply to this post yes correct. Or no not correct or some variant of it. And explain in details, hopefully with photos too...

Both safeties detailed here:
Read The Sticky Advice And Information Note In This Topic: Range-Stove-Oven-Broiler Basic Help Information & Manufacturers Web Sites. http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=159808

 
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Old 07-20-13, 09:55 AM
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Hi,

When the oven is turned on, the primary pilot light ignites a secondary pilot light which heats up something that looks like a miniature thermocouple (the horizontal rod on the right a little above the middle). I was told by someone that I think really knew that it was not a thermocouple, it was a mercury switch.

So the thing that is heated up is connected by a wire braid to a trapezoidal box connected to the side of the main gas pipe feeding the burner(at the bottom just to the right of center).

I suppose the problem could be either in the "miniature thermocouple" or in the box connected to the gas.

I don't have a site to post pictures to. I did not seem to be able to find an email address for you. If the picture does not come through this time, if you can send me an email address, that should work. I had to cut off part of the wire cable on the left to get it below 50 kb.

Thank you for your help.

Phil
 
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Old 07-20-13, 06:13 PM
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Ok, I'm familiar with this system. Sharp Advice did a good job of explaining the sequence of operation. The most common problem is a restricted pilot orifice. When the thermostat is turned up, the amount of gas is increased and it heats the cap tube. If the orifice is restricted the flame isn't large enough to heat the cap tube properly. An easy way to test the system entails wooden matches and a pair of needle nose pliers. Add heat to the cap tube with the pliers and matches, to see if you can maintain burner gas.
 
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Old 07-21-13, 09:01 AM
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Thank you. I will try it tomorrow when my tenant is out.

The oven does come on quite nicely, although it takes about a minute, and about a minute later it goes out.

The primary pilot gets clogged with ash, so the secondary one may also. Perhaps when the gas is opened to the oven burner, the pressure goes down and reduces the secondary pilot flame.
 
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Old 07-22-13, 02:19 PM
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I cleaned out the gas orifice again, and I seem to have done a better job than the first time. The primary pilot is larger and the secondary pilot is extremely robust. It extends way beyond the cap tube.

But, after a minute or so, the secondary pilot gets weaker and goes out, and the oven goes off. The primary pilot is still lit. I observed that several times.

Shortly after the oven has gone off, I can get it on again by heating the cap tube with a match.

Hopefully, that narrows the problem down, perhaps to the thermostat?

I know that I replaced something on the stove a few years ago that require taking the top off. The man that I spoke to told me, off the top of his head, exactly where all the screws are. It would've been difficult to find them otherwise because they are covered with grease. It was quite a remarkable performance. He's probably the person mentioned in some other threads.

It could've been the heater thermocouple, but I don't think that usually requires removing the top. So it was probably the thermostat.

P. S. I now realize that both the pilots are fed by the same line.
 

Last edited by ppllkk; 07-22-13 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 07-22-13, 09:13 PM
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Remove the thermostat knob and look at the front side and look at the pilot setting screw. Off..lp...nat. Pointer should be on nat.
Just had a thought. Is the temp bulb in the proper place and not loose and against some metal.
 

Last edited by mbk3; 07-22-13 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 07-23-13, 09:36 AM
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The setting screw is just a screw head with no pointer, just a slot, but if I set it to off, which is in the middle, and turn it to nat, that is where it was. The slot ends up pointing at both lp and nat.

The temp bulb is in the obvious place and quite secure. The pilot flame hits it directly. It passes through two holes that support it and it is secured by a screw.

Is the temp bulb just a piece of copper that transmits the heat by way of the copper wire to the mercury switch at the main gas valve?
 
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Old 07-24-13, 11:11 AM
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The temp bulb is in the obvious place and quite secure. The pilot flame hits it directly. It passes through two holes that support it and it is secured by a screw.
:NO NO NO: No. Incorrect. The temp bulb you're referring to above is not a temp bulb nor temp sensing element. What the photo shows is the safety bulb or element. That's what the larger secondary flame must heat. And heat correctly. Bulb or element must be in the hottest (tip/end) of the flame. Not in the middle... An overly large secondary flame (Actuating Flame) puts the bulb in the middle or back end (nearst the bracket) of the flame which is not the hottest area. Must be in the flames tip. An all blue no yellow flame.

If you can take a photo of the pilot flame and one of the larger actuating flame and post them it will shows us the flame size and location where the safety bulb is in the flame...

Is the temp bulb just a piece of copper that transmits the heat by way of the copper wire to the mercury switch at the main gas valve?
Again :NO NO NO: No. Incorrect. Terminology errors. The safety element (Bulb) (not temp bulb...) contains a fluid or vapor that expands when heated to push an internal pin which opens the gas valve as I had mentioned prior. Re-read my first parts and acts descriptive post above.

No transfer of heat. :NO NO NO:. Expansion of fluid or vapor. No wall outlet electrical power either. Safety is not and does not appear to be a flame switch which operates by electrical power....:NO NO NO:
 
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Old 07-24-13, 01:17 PM
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The temp bulb you're referring to above is not a temp bulb nor temp sensing element. What the photo shows is the safety bulb or element.
Okay. When mbk3 wrote
Is the temp bulb in the proper place and not loose and against some metal.
I incorrectly assumed that he was talking about the one thing that I could think of that could be loose and against some metal. i.e. the bulb in the flame.

I don't know what he meant by the temp bulb.

That's what the larger secondary flame must heat. And heat correctly. Bulb or element must be in the hottest (tip/end) of the flame. Not in the middle.... . . Must be in the flames tip. An all blue no yellow flame.
That is clearly not what is happening as you can see from the pictures. It is not clear to me why that would cause the secondary pilot to go off shortly before the oven does.Name:  IMG_1459.jpg
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No transfer of heat. . Expansion of fluid or vapor
So the very small copper tube connecting the safety bulb to the gas valve is hollow?
No wall outlet electrical power either. Safety is not and does not appear to be a flame switch which operates by electrical power...
Correct, the stove is not plugged in.
 
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Old 07-24-13, 02:27 PM
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mbk3 is referring to the temp sensing bulb/element inside the baking compartment. And he is correct. Should be secured in the two clips and not touching any other metal.

The photos of the two pilots are great. Both flames appear normal in size and flame color appears correct in both. So the most logical solution is to replace the safety element (bulb) the actuating (larger) pilot flame is heating. Suggest buying one of OEM quality from a local appliance parts retail store. An often ignored suggestion......but IMO worth mentioning.

Only caution might be if there is a hole in the burner... which seems to show up or seems to appear to be, in the photos. If you care to now post a photo or two when burner fires up would help to more accurately determine the exact cause. Might have to snap photos quickly while burner is on and well before burner shuts down I am aware, but the burner on with flames photos would help identify the cause better.

If burner is defective and or has a hole, crack etc as it appears in the photos......on top side near pilots you've discovered the problem.... Huge hole produces a huge flame much to close to a pilot causing it to flame out pilots. Burner not repairable. Has to be replaced with new OEM one.
 
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Old 07-25-13, 12:32 PM
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Both flames appear normal in size and flame color appears correct in both.
The secondary pilot flame does extend way beyond the bulb. Something earlier implied that might be a problem.
If burner is defective and or has a hole, crack etc as it appears in the photos.
What you see in the photograph is actually rust, but on the underside of the burner near the pilots there is a crack maybe 1.5 inches long. That would explain what I have observed, that the secondary pilot goes out before the burner goes out.
Burner not repairable.
Is there any possibility of a temporary repair until the burner can be replaced?
Has to be replaced with new OEM one.
Delighted to do that, rather than replace the stove. How do I tell what to ask for and where should I ask?

Thank you for your help.

Phil
 
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Old 07-25-13, 02:19 PM
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Are you sure the underside is cracked or is that a"flash slot" that is there by design to light the other side.
 
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Old 07-25-13, 02:59 PM
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Are you sure the underside is cracked or is that a"flash slot" that is there by design to light the other side.
I am not at all sure. I don't expect to find any sort of crack or slot there.

You are saying that the burner is divided down the middle and the gas divides where it comes in and goes down each side separately?

How would I tell whether it's a crack or slot?

I will attempt to take a picture tomorrow when I won't be disturbing the tenant. I obviously had to use a mirror to see it.
 
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Old 07-25-13, 03:05 PM
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What you're referring to as a crack and mbk3 is referring to as a "flash slot" can be called a "Crossover" slot. That's required to light the other side of the burner.

Some burners have holes in place of a slot. They are often referred to as "ports." Also required and both or either need to be opened and cleared of any rust or debris etc.

Other terms for either types can be ports in place of calling them slots and or reverse, etc. Problems are so many terms for either can be confusing...GI2...

Bottom Line & End Result is, if burner okay, ports/slot cleared all okay. If not, burner needs to be removed, easy to due, taken to an appliance retail parts store and replaced with new OEM burner. Burner all okay, replace safety element and be done with it...
 
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Old 07-25-13, 06:41 PM
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Too funny, I could not think of Crossover to save my...........
 
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Old 07-26-13, 08:57 AM
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If not, burner needs to be removed, easy to due, taken to an appliance retail parts store and replaced with new OEM burner.
So, if I take the burner to an appliance retail parts store, they should be able to match it? There should be a generic replacement. People keep telling me the parts are no longer made for Magee stoves.
replace safety element and be done with it.
Same question for the safety element. This is a common item, not specific to Magee stoves?

I really do not understand how the problem can be in the safety element since the secondary pilot goes off, i.e. reverts to the size of the primary pilot, before the gas to the burner goes off.
 
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Old 07-26-13, 02:02 PM
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I took out the oven burner and vacuumed everything off. The cut is clearly man-made and there do not seem to be any other problems.

I turned on the oven, watched carefully, and confirmed what I've seen a couple of times before. After the burner has lit and been on for maybe a minute, the secondary pilot gets weaker over a couple of seconds and goes out. Then, as would be expected, the gas to the burner goes off and the burner goes out. The primary pilot stays on.

What I had not noticed before is that if I leave the oven on, after maybe 15 to 30 seconds, the secondary pilot slowly ignites, heats up the bulb, and the burner flame comes back on. I don't know how long this cycle repeats, but I could find out if it is a clue to the problem.

It looks as if the thermostat is, for some reason, turning off the secondary pilot, and then turning it back on again after the burner flame has been off for a little. It is a Robertshaw control, and I think I replaced it, i.e. installed the one that is there now, about 10 years ago.

I noticed that the flame on the burner at the end that the gas comes in is uneven, sometimes there are temporarily unlit patches, and it does seem to blow the secondary pilot around, but it did not look as if it blew it out. Does that sound like too much air is being mixed in with the gas? Or too little?
 
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Old 08-02-13, 08:59 AM
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Name:  ROBERTSHAWsmall.jpg
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Size:  32.2 KBDoes anyone know how to find a Robertshaw gas oven control model number 9818D.

If they are not still made, does anyone know of a replacement.

Thank you.
 
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Old 08-02-13, 12:37 PM
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Hello: Phil

What each of us, myself and mbk3 are attempting to due for you is narrow down the possible causes.

I noticed that the flame on the burner at the end that the gas comes in is uneven, sometimes there are temporarily unlit patches...
The holes or slots in the burner must be cleaned out. Crossover slot or ports cleaned also if needed.

Very possible you are correct. The thermostat may be shutting down the larger actuating pilot flame. Expensive part. So we always try to avoid changing parts until we fix it. Safety element still a possibility and far less expensive. Replacing both costly but may be required.

In all honesty. As a tech I would replace both safety element and T-Stat both so I could avoid a non profit call back (can't charge for call backs......when it fails all to soon again...

People keep telling me the parts are no longer made for Magee stoves.
People? What people????

I've heard it thousands of times and over and over again and again. The service techs and parts stores locally have Robert shaw T-Stats and that type of safety element. Neither are obsolete. Suggestion: Go to your local appliance parts store and call R-Shaw. Rumors abound.

In My Opinion, you can accomplish the repair. Some depends on inquiring at parts store and less on rumors, etc. Try it. Buy all the parts. Replace them and resolve the problem once and for all. Once oven is working properly, bake a pot roast with potatoes and all the other veggies and call me...be right over...LOL!

 
 

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