oil burner???buzzing sound?? LONG:eek:

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  #1  
Old 01-23-03, 10:34 PM
RichO
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oil burner???buzzing sound?? LONG:eek:

Oil fired hot water heat.
It's an old unit,no electronics

Has been working OK,last week I had to tighten up the set screw on the squirrel cage fan.

It will not start every-time now.Fairly loud buzzing sound,I thought at first it was the transformer but I get good blue spark with a screwdriver.
Checked and cleaned all the wiring connections at the motor/transformer.
Pulled the motor out and spun it and the fuel pump by hand.Both turned easily.The shaft on the motor was not loose.Everything seemed OK.
We have some soot buildup right now from the squirrel cage fan slipping on the shaft.I cleaned the fire/heat sensor that is in the flue.I don't know how to identify it although I do know it's not photoelectric.I'm pretty sure it's looking for heat .

It trips the safety/reset on the board where the contactor/sensor/line power are all attached.It fires up everytime I hit the reset.
I tried just turning the power off and then reseting it and then turning the power back on.In the few tests I did this way it "buzzed" again about half the time.

The reset on the motor may as well not be there for all the clues it has provided.

I haven't ohmed out the motor yet while it's buzzing,thats next.

Is it possible to test the transformer to insure it's putting out the proper voltage?

What have I missed in trying to diagnose this?
What usually happens when the pump is on it's way out.Does it load up the motor?
Is it possible for a filter to be so plugged that it will "stall" the motor out.

I'm at a loss here,ANY help would really be appreciated.

Thanx [SIZE=1]sorry about the length[/SIZE]
 
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  #2  
Old 01-24-03, 12:08 PM
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The blower wheel on the burner should be as close to the fuel pump side of the burner chassis as you can get it without it rubbing. That is critical. Otherwise high pressure air short circuits around the end of the blower wheel and gives you a crappy flame. Set that first. Was the burner motor spinning when you heard the buzzing? If not, change the motor. If you have a stack control (RA117), how did you clean that? Did you check the pump coupling when you had the motor out? It could be on its way out and slipping. Hold both ends and twist. What is the brand of the BURNER. Not the boiler. Your transformer sounds OK. You should get a 3/4" blue arc. A pump can stall a motor but not very likely. I just re-read your post and if the motor is noisy and not up to speed, trash it. The reset is for thermal overload and there are other things that can go wrong with the motor that won't cause a trip.

Give us more info ASAP and I'll walk you right through it.
 
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Old 01-24-03, 01:05 PM
RichO
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I was wondering about the blower wheel placement on the motor shaft,will move it as close to fuel pump as possible.

No the motor was not spinning.I'll pull it and replace it.

I cleaned the sensor with some electronic cleaner.Seemed like the best way to get rid of the soot while not having to physically touch it.Thought about using carb cleaner but the electronic worked.

The rubber coupling was relativly stiff.I'm not exactly sure what it would feel like when bad but it seems plenty stiff enough.I'll be sure to put some latex gloves on next time I touch the coupling .

Anthes is the brand of burner.
 
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Old 01-24-03, 02:28 PM
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Let us know if all is well after the motor job. There is a small adjustment to the safety control if you have a short cycling problem. I'll describe it to you if necessary.
 
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Old 01-24-03, 04:15 PM
RichO
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I'll definately post whatever happens good or bad until I can resolve this,probably be next week before I respond.

Thanks for the help.
 
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Old 01-29-03, 07:35 PM
RichO
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Alrighty then...I had the motor rebuilt.Got it back today and installed it......Same problem .The motor cannot turn the pump it just sits there and buzzzzes.The shaft is not turning.
I gave it a some help and got it up to speed.
I have to get the motor spinning and then close the transformer on to the contacts,not great but we get some heat this way.

I pulled the fuel pump out and did a close inspection.It appears that there is a noticeable amount of drag on the shaft.
I disassembled the shaft end of the pump and found the cover-spring-plate-spring.When the spring is removed from the, "seal"?,at the base of the shaft the shaft spun much more freely(is that a word?).

Should I tear-down the whole pump assembly?
What does the shaft ride on,could a bearing be causing this.Are there any consumables?

It says INGLIS on the side of the pump.


Thank ya.......thank ya very much.
 
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Old 01-30-03, 05:15 AM
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When you say that there is a noticable amount of drag on the pump, I guess it is enough to prevent the motor from spinning it. Some burners came through with a 1/7hp motor and when they dies I always used a 1/6hp but even that probably wouldn't matter. My suggestion is to replace the pump. Don't remove the spring that keeps tension on the seal. The drag is probably more in the gear section than in the seal but for the cost of a pump, ($50) I wouldn't attempt to repair it.

You should be able to turn it with your thumb and forefinger. If it takes pliers that's not good. You could remove the strainer cover and pull off the gear cover plate and see if you have a piece of teflon tape or something stuck in there, but if I was on a call and found a tight pump, I'd scrap it.

I don't know what you paid to have the motor rebuilt, but I have to wonder if a new motor might have been a better idea. The new motors have higher starting torque and use ball bearings.

I'm not trying to be judgemental, but trying to give an idea what experience has shown to be the best way for a successful resolution of problems. Although labor is not a concern of yours, I had many problems using rebuilt parts and almost every time, the cost of the callback (out of my pocket) exceeded the difference between a rebuilt part and a new one.

Keep us posted.
 
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Old 01-30-03, 08:13 AM
RichO
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I can turn the shaft with my thumb and finger but it seems a little tight to me although this is the first oil pump I've been into.

The motor rebuild was 50$,it would have been 100$ for a new one.The business I took the motor too has a good reputation but I do understand and agree with you about using new parts.

I'm going to start pricing pumps around here today and tear-down this pump.
Is it just the force produced by pump itself that is pushing against the seal and spring on the shaft?

The motor is a 1/8hp.,the one I had rebuilt was sitting next to the boiler.Apparently the previous owner had replaced it at some time.The motor that as on the boiler to begin with is also 1/8hp.I considered just buying a higher hp motor but was worried about masking problem.

The boiler has been working great for the past 7 years.We had it serviced last April at the end of the heating season for us so it doesn't really have all that much time on it since.

Thanks for the quick responses.This is such a grerat board.
 
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Old 01-30-03, 08:42 AM
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There are no consumables inside the pump. Seal kits used to be available but I wouldn't bother. Do you have a Johnstone supply near you? I would suggest finding a good place to buy your parts because you will pay too much for parts at the wrong place.

A 1/7hp or 1/8hp motor retails for $54.08. Both same price. My price is about $45.

Nothing against your motor shop but they probably have about $2 in parts in the rebuild job, and half of that is paint. I still wouldn't trust it. What did they do, exactly? Is there a warranty? Did they bench test it for start torque?

A Suntec fuel unit (A2VA7116) which is popular retails for $45.24 and my price is about $38.

Johnstones prices would be similar.

Don't mess around too long with parts that are that cheap. One hour of service time will cost you almost as much as both parts. Reinvest that savings in new parts when doing it yourself.

I'm not trying to be too opinionated but I went through this whole sequence with my father before I bought the family business. The cheapest way isn't always the best in the long haul.
 
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Old 01-30-03, 09:30 AM
RichO
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I'm in Canada.$100 for the motor is not retail price.I worked HVAC for a couple years and my brother is a plumber so I know where to get the best price.

I'm going to get the new pump today or tomorrow and see how that goes.
If it fixes everything up than no worries.If the motor still will not turn I'll take it back and get a refund on my money/have them apply it to a new motor.Although it appears that the motor may not be the problem here anyway.If it isn't I'll have a spare motor.

I like taking stuff apart and seeing how it works.If I have to spend a little more time thats ok, next time I'll know exactly whats going on.
 
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Old 01-30-03, 09:39 AM
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I agree on that. I always like to see what make these things tick too. And often I think if time wasn't such a factor, I could probably repair some of the temperature controls and relays that we replace. Good luck and I'm glad to hear that you can buy 'right'. Before I got setup with an auto supplier in my area, I think I paid too much for auto parts and I always did the work myself. They say they rip you off so that you can't take the parts to a mechanic to be installed and beat him out of his markup. Or because you are not a service station. They rip you off because they can.
 
  #12  
Old 01-30-03, 03:57 PM
RichO
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I took the pump down to a local supplier and found out that the drag on the shaft was normal,in fact is was a little looser than a new pump.

I then took the rebuilt motor back to the rebuilder and returned it+ a few bucks for a brand new motor.

The boiler is up and running now with no problems.

In hindsight it would have been easier to just have purchased a brand new motor right away,had I been"on the job"I would have.If I have to do it again I think I'll try another rebuilt motor as long as the motor isn't too old to begin with.

I learned lots about oil burner pumps taking everything apart.There isn't much to them.
 
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Old 01-30-03, 05:52 PM
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The heat is on

Good job. The main thing is that you haven't wasted any money. You probably had a problem with the start switch in the motor and that is something that the motor shop should have found, but I am satisfied that you have a good motor and a working pump and the heat is on.
 
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