Reality check on new unit price quotation
#1
12-02-03, 12:28 PM
Reality check on new unit price quotation
Hello,
I just got a quote (first one) here are the details:
American Standard (Trane?) Package unit
4 Ton
12 Seer
Increase CAR from 14 x 20 to 24 x 24
Duct clean and seal
UV/Ozone light
Ground installation (no crane required)
Remove old unit
Sacramento location
Total: $6,996
Any input is appreciated!
I just got a quote (first one) here are the details:
American Standard (Trane?) Package unit
4 Ton
12 Seer
Increase CAR from 14 x 20 to 24 x 24
Duct clean and seal
UV/Ozone light
Ground installation (no crane required)
Remove old unit
Sacramento location
Total: $6,996
Any input is appreciated!
new AC
#4
12-02-03, 01:35 PM
new AC
Dont sound to bad but you have to see each job before you can say the cost .
Its the duct work that has me here. you said a new 4 ton AC.
Just one 14" round is about a 700 cfm now if that is all you have here you need more.
Most of the time I like 400 cfm per ton or 60"or better. So for 4 ton we need about 1600 cfm . So to get that tight you need a duct for 240" tot. where is it??That 24"X24" grill sounds good.
ED
Its the duct work that has me here. you said a new 4 ton AC.
Just one 14" round is about a 700 cfm now if that is all you have here you need more.
Most of the time I like 400 cfm per ton or 60"or better. So for 4 ton we need about 1600 cfm . So to get that tight you need a duct for 240" tot. where is it??That 24"X24" grill sounds good.
ED
#5
12-02-03, 01:41 PM
cont'd
ya' know, you may be right about the duct size, it may be a bit bigger. The current unit is a 3.5 Ton.
The guy quoted a 4T American Standard at $5,771 installed (including right-sizing the CAR and throwing in the UV).
A GC that I know quoted a Tempstar/Carrier 5T 100k BTU for $2,500 (materials only).
I think that the quote I got was a bit high, but not stratospherically so...
I really appreciate your input!!
The guy quoted a 4T American Standard at $5,771 installed (including right-sizing the CAR and throwing in the UV).
A GC that I know quoted a Tempstar/Carrier 5T 100k BTU for $2,500 (materials only).
I think that the quote I got was a bit high, but not stratospherically so...
I really appreciate your input!!
#6
12-02-03, 04:48 PM
new AC
At 3.5 ton then that one 14" pipe would work but to me to hard.
you dont want to put a 5 ton on that 14 " pipe return. didnt any of them go over your duct work ? Go for that UV lamp ED
stay in just this one post ok
you dont want to put a 5 ton on that 14 " pipe return. didnt any of them go over your duct work ? Go for that UV lamp
EDstay in just this one post ok
#7
12-02-03, 05:49 PM
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my dos centavos
seems kind of high for atlanta, but not too high considering the SEER, UV light and duct modifications. is this a well established contractor that has done a load and given references? do not have ductulator in front of me.....thinking 16 MINIMUM... rather see 18 inch return for 4 tons....the bigger the better and quieter.
#8
12-03-03, 04:13 AM
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What's strange is you currently have 3.5t and have two quotes one is 4t and the other is 5t.
Did any of them do a heat loss/gain calculation on your home to properly size the unit and ducts? Bigger is not better when it comes to hvac. To big of a a/c and you get short cycling and high humidity. It makes your home cold and clammy.
Did any of them do a heat loss/gain calculation on your home to properly size the unit and ducts? Bigger is not better when it comes to hvac. To big of a a/c and you get short cycling and high humidity. It makes your home cold and clammy.
#9
12-03-03, 01:28 PM
You said a 12 seer package unit. I assume this is a heatpump package unit and not gas.
The price does not sound out of line. looks to be close to half and half. Half for parts and half for installation and duct work.
American standard is the parent company of Trane, both brands are top of the line. You might be able to save some money going with a cheaper brand. Like Coleman. Call the person and ask what the price would be if they used Coleman.
As for duct size, code is 6sq.in./kBtu (6x48)=288sq.in. inches.
Each ton is 12000 BTU, 4 tons=48,000 btu (6x48)=288 inches.
14*20=280sq.in. 24*24=576sq.in. 18" round duct =240sq.in.
How big is your house?
The price does not sound out of line. looks to be close to half and half. Half for parts and half for installation and duct work.
American standard is the parent company of Trane, both brands are top of the line. You might be able to save some money going with a cheaper brand. Like Coleman. Call the person and ask what the price would be if they used Coleman.
As for duct size, code is 6sq.in./kBtu (6x48)=288sq.in. inches.
Each ton is 12000 BTU, 4 tons=48,000 btu (6x48)=288 inches.
14*20=280sq.in. 24*24=576sq.in. 18" round duct =240sq.in.
How big is your house?
#11
12-03-03, 04:38 PM
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good formula, binford, will have to remember that. overall, i think you are getting your money's worth, what was the warranty on that amana. BTW i am an amana dealer, i love them.
#13
12-03-03, 05:10 PM
amana and american standard
I would say no they are not comparable, since I can buy an Amana for a lot less then an American std.
Its like trying to compare pickup trucks, your are looking at a Ford 3/4 ton truck vs a Dodge 1/2 truck. They don't cost the same to start with. Consumer reports rated American std. number 1 for reliability a few years ago.
If you can make the time to get several bids, you will learn more just how each contractor will solve your problem. Don't look for the cheapest, look for the person who listens to your issues and takes the time to really figure out what you need. A sloppy install will cost you in efficiency.
If your in a SMUD area, I beleive you need a 13 seer unit to get a rebate. The rebate would pay for a 14 seer American Std.
Its like trying to compare pickup trucks, your are looking at a Ford 3/4 ton truck vs a Dodge 1/2 truck. They don't cost the same to start with. Consumer reports rated American std. number 1 for reliability a few years ago.
If you can make the time to get several bids, you will learn more just how each contractor will solve your problem. Don't look for the cheapest, look for the person who listens to your issues and takes the time to really figure out what you need. A sloppy install will cost you in efficiency.
If your in a SMUD area, I beleive you need a 13 seer unit to get a rebate. The rebate would pay for a 14 seer American Std.
#14
12-03-03, 08:32 PM
one of the benefits of the amana rig that the technician discussed was the increase in thickness of the thing that prevents carbon monoxide from entering the house.
what exactly makes the amana inferior to the american standard?
binford, your advice is sound regarding how i am listened to, the amana guy (who wasn't pushing that brand necessarily) seemed very credible and professional.
so many different ratings out there, check this one. it's hard for the lay person to really know what is best
http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/topcac.htm
what exactly makes the amana inferior to the american standard?
binford, your advice is sound regarding how i am listened to, the amana guy (who wasn't pushing that brand necessarily) seemed very credible and professional.
so many different ratings out there, check this one. it's hard for the lay person to really know what is best
http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/topcac.htm
#15
12-04-03, 01:32 PM
I know what you mean about all the many choices out there. As for the heat exchangers most manufacturs now offer lifetime warrantys. They figured out how to not only make them thicker, but coat them with another metal to keep it from rusting out.
I would do more research on the UV light to see if your really need it. Maybe instead get an electroinc air filter??
I would still get at least one more bid, using lennox or carrier.
good luck.
I would do more research on the UV light to see if your really need it. Maybe instead get an electroinc air filter??
I would still get at least one more bid, using lennox or carrier.
good luck.
#17
12-05-03, 12:13 PM
They make seveal types, 1 bulb, 2 bulbs, some have as many a 5 bulbs. The bulbs need to be replaced about once a year or so. Some last longer than others. Besure to check on replacement cost. Ozone levels from these bulbs should be relativly low. But you are correct in that too much Ozone is bad for you.
Other ways to get Ozone in your house. Open the windows and let in some fresh air.
You have three classes of indoor air contaminants. Particles, bioaerosols and odors/chemical vapors. Lennox makes a really cool unit called the Pure Air Filter.
Reading about there different filters at
http://www.davelennox.com/products/list_iaq.asp
Other ways to get Ozone in your house. Open the windows and let in some fresh air.
You have three classes of indoor air contaminants. Particles, bioaerosols and odors/chemical vapors. Lennox makes a really cool unit called the Pure Air Filter.
Reading about there different filters at
http://www.davelennox.com/products/list_iaq.asp
#18
12-05-03, 12:19 PM
The right unit????
Ill have to go the other way here as a filter goes. The electronic kind I have put them in but I have taken more out than in. People will not keep them clean so they dont work like they should. Ask the company you have there now for cost on how much to put in a good Air Bear pleated filter set up . Go for the uv light for sure. Go to www.honeywell.com/yourhome read up on them.
Now as for brand get 3 bids here for the same job. Id say what ever the guy is selling that company has been there the longest. Is the brand to get cause he will have the parts and know how to work on it if need be.
Boy if 60" per ton is code thats too low for me .We work on up to 80" per ton for a good job. ED
My .02 cents
Now as for brand get 3 bids here for the same job. Id say what ever the guy is selling that company has been there the longest. Is the brand to get cause he will have the parts and know how to work on it if need be.
Boy if 60" per ton is code thats too low for me .We work on up to 80" per ton for a good job.
EDMy .02 cents
#20
12-05-03, 12:46 PM
Epilogue
Just to close this out, here's what I just bought:
American Standard Package unit
4T
13 SEER
Clarion UV (Coil)
Enlarge CAR
Clean and Seal ducts
5 year lemon warranty
5 year parts/1 year labor
10 years on the the compressor, 20 on the heat exchange
365 day unconditional
2 year service contract (incl)
why I chose?
The salesman was no/low pressure
Very knowledgeable and responsive
Product neutral (i.e., i upgraded to American Standard for $140)
Good warranty
itemized instead of 'packaging." i.e., the other guy told me that clean and seal is normally $1900, a package deal for $1000, throws in UV. seemed like a shell game, even if it wasn't
So i guess that ultimatley, i chose the company, not the product (the other guy was actually a couple of hundred bucks less).
American Standard Package unit
4T
13 SEER
Clarion UV (Coil)
Enlarge CAR
Clean and Seal ducts
5 year lemon warranty
5 year parts/1 year labor
10 years on the the compressor, 20 on the heat exchange
365 day unconditional
2 year service contract (incl)
why I chose?
The salesman was no/low pressure
Very knowledgeable and responsive
Product neutral (i.e., i upgraded to American Standard for $140)
Good warranty
itemized instead of 'packaging." i.e., the other guy told me that clean and seal is normally $1900, a package deal for $1000, throws in UV. seemed like a shell game, even if it wasn't
So i guess that ultimatley, i chose the company, not the product (the other guy was actually a couple of hundred bucks less).
#24
12-05-03, 01:08 PM
filters
Id still take a good Air Bear pleated filter over any and all the Electronic filter out there. I think you will find out most of the hvac guys here will say the same thing . ED
ED
#26
12-05-03, 01:24 PM
Filter
Both of them . Just dont hold up down the line. Yes it goes righ in the duct work needs about 5" wide Purolator makes them They say 93% dust retention. Also sold as Space-Gard. ED
ED
#28
12-05-03, 02:00 PM
filters
The people just get to a point that they wont take them out and wash them. So they just go down hill from there. If they do then they start to break up from the in on out to be washed. Thats like the big ones from Honeywell They cut them in half ------so you can put them in the dishwasher. Electrostatic you have to take out side and wash with a hose or some where. ED
ED
#29
12-12-03, 12:48 PM
Installation day
Hello,
The contractor is on site now and the guy tells me that they do not need to increase the size of the CAR. The return line is 16" and the CAR is 14 x 20. He says that it is fine for the unit (American Standard Package 13 SEER, 4T).
Doesn't seem right to me. What size return do you think I need?
Also, I signed up for duct re-sealing. The guy said that they put this new tape OVER the existing duct tape. That also seems mickey-mouse.
Opinions??
The contractor is on site now and the guy tells me that they do not need to increase the size of the CAR. The return line is 16" and the CAR is 14 x 20. He says that it is fine for the unit (American Standard Package 13 SEER, 4T).
Doesn't seem right to me. What size return do you think I need?
Also, I signed up for duct re-sealing. The guy said that they put this new tape OVER the existing duct tape. That also seems mickey-mouse.
Opinions??
#30
12-12-03, 01:14 PM
duct work
All I can say is what my books say a 16" pipe is 900cfm you need a 30X12 grill or360" for it. At 400 cfm per ton that we work at you need 1600 cfm for the 4 ton that would come out you need a 10X24 duct or 4 ---10" pipes for cold air return . Or 16" pipe has 198sq" in it and didnt you say code out there was 60" per ton so you should have 240" there for code I still think thats to low a good 4 ton job would work out to 320" duct for the return and supply. Just the way I look at it. Also tape over old tape no way ED
ED
#32
12-12-03, 02:14 PM
grills
With all the say cross bars,or metal thats in a grill and register. you have a loss of 15% or more of the sq area. Is what the books show ED
try www.llbuildingproducts.com
EDtry www.llbuildingproducts.com
#35
12-14-03, 10:27 PM
You can call the building dept at (916) 875-5793. between 7-8am and ask to speak to an inspector. Or http://www.bldginspection.org/
under FAQ you can ask the inspector.
A permit should have been pulled. Ask the installer about it.
The webpage at codecheck.com blanks out the table for the duct size info.
The size of the duct, the lenght of the duct affect the pressure in the system. To get the best performance it must be size correctly.
The filter is allways bigger than the duct it self, because it restricts air flow. Ask the installer to explain again why the size is ok. I am sure he had a reason.
To reseal the ducts, you can paint on this fiber caulking over the old tape and it will seal. They sell it at home depot for about $10 or you can remove the tape where loose and replace to mastic aluminum tape again about $10 at home depot.
under FAQ you can ask the inspector.
A permit should have been pulled. Ask the installer about it.
The webpage at codecheck.com blanks out the table for the duct size info.
The size of the duct, the lenght of the duct affect the pressure in the system. To get the best performance it must be size correctly.
The filter is allways bigger than the duct it self, because it restricts air flow. Ask the installer to explain again why the size is ok. I am sure he had a reason.
To reseal the ducts, you can paint on this fiber caulking over the old tape and it will seal. They sell it at home depot for about $10 or you can remove the tape where loose and replace to mastic aluminum tape again about $10 at home depot.
