New Installation

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Old 02-23-04, 12:11 PM
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New Installation

Some of you may remember me and my saga..

Since spring is approaching and I decided that I don't feel like doing all the ductwork I decided to contract out the new installation. For the background, this is a 1400 sq house, single level with full basement, R19 walls, R30 ceiling, double pane windows. According to the headload calculator this requires a 40,000 BTU furnce (which I think is way too small in my opinion, but I'm not a HVAC guy). I called 3 heating contractors (the only 3 in the area by the way) for estimated. Two of them quoted similar prices ($3600), and one quoted almost $5K (Trane dealer). Neither of them did any kind of real calculation (like the heat load site). All three quoted really on the size of the home, along with the number of registers. All 3 furnaces are 94% efficience, propane, non-variable speed. AC will not be installed now, although the AC coil will be put in for about $200 (cased A coil). The first company quoted a Carrier furnace, 60,000 BTU for $3600. The second quoted a Trance XR90 furnace for $5,000. The third quoted a Goodman furnace, 80,000 BTU for $3300. The Trane is pretty much out of the question because of the $1400 price difference. It's now between the Carrier and the Goodman dealers. The Goodman dealer is a old timer, he will do everything custom made for the house (ductwork, etc). He'll basically come in with a press and sheet metal, and come out with the ducts. The Carrier dealer is mostly working with premade ducts, he's just puting them together so to speak. I understand that Carrier is a better brand than Goodman, but I also understand that replacement parts for Goodman are much cheaper then for the Carrier. I checked some prices earlier today for the induction fan motor and the Carrier one was almost 4 times the price of the Goodman. It's unlikely the Goodman fan will die 4 times as often as the Carrier.
The main issue is the size. Both say that what they recommended is right. The Goodman dealer is saying the 60K furnace will run much longer and take much longer to bring the house up to temperature compared to the 80K he's recommended.
I can force the Goodman dealer to install a 60K furnace, but I don't want to regret that decision later on. It can be very cold in Central Wisconsin (by the Dells).
What size furnace would typically be installed by one of the pros in here for such a house? I need a bit of ammo before I get back to both dealers.
 
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Old 02-24-04, 02:45 PM
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I seem to have bit more choice now after talking to another contractor. He's offering a Payne unit (80K BTU, 93% efficiency). Is Janitrol (Goodman) better or worse then Payne? I've never had to deal with either of them.

Also, I have a choice with Janitrol (Goodman). I can upgrade to a variable speed, 2 stage furnace for roughly $300. Is it worth it? They are both 94% units, LP fueled.
 
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Old 02-24-04, 10:08 PM
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I never been a fan of Goodman. and lot of guys are not either..

I would go with Payne(carrier) before goodman.

Is this Payne going to be 2-stage? Or was that for the GOodman?

I would invest in the variable spee/2-stage before anyting else for total comfort! :-)

As for BTU rating the dealer has figured for you.. YOu asked them if they done a heat lost/gain program on your home?

IF they say they did, ask for a print out. If they say the did a "Rule-of-Thumb" then move on to the next one till they give you a print out report!

You can download a program for $49 from http://www.hvaccomputer.com/main.asp

It will be well worth the $49 you spent for total comfort in your home in our northern winters.
 
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Old 02-25-04, 06:49 AM
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Im more for a Trane or Rheem furnace here. But you say old timer has Goodman makes his own duct work for the home. Bet he knows what he is doing and will write down a guarantee too heat the home. With that size unit. Ask him? Why spend the $49. Make sure they put in the right size gas line and 2 stage it for that LP gas furnace. ED
 
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Old 02-25-04, 07:17 AM
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Because of the somewhat remote location I only have 4 choices:
1. Install a Trane system for $5000 with a single stage TRANE XR90 60KBTU furnace.
2. Install a Carrier system for $3800 with a single stage Carrier 93% 60KBTU furnace.
3. Install a Janitrol GMNT 80KBTU single stage Goodman for $3800.
4. Buy and self install a Janitrol GMNT (single stage/signle speed) or GMNTE (2 stage/variable speed furnace). The GMNT I can get for $920, the double stage for $250 more. However, when I ask either of the 3 installers above about upgrading to a 2 stage they all quoted almost $600. Why? Even for a Trane I don't believe a $600 price difference is possible.
All prices are heat only, no AC.

The calculations that I did (neither dealer did any "real" calculation that I could see) come up around 64,000BTU, and 2.3T of cooling. That's one of the main reasons why 2 stage looks so appealing as it can run either at 75KBTU or 54KBTU depending on the load. Right now I'm very inclined to simply go with the self install option (and have the propane company come and connect the piping and start up the furnace) simply because that the only way I can realistically get the 2 stage furnace.

I looked at both Goodman and Payne specs, and the thing I like about Goodman is that the secondary heat exchanger is stainless steel. On the Payne it looks like it's regular steel with some sort of polypropylene lining to protect it. I can only get the Payne in single stage from what I can tell.

There is another small issue with the gas lines they will run. The price includes running gas from the outside regulator (supplied by the LP company) to the furnace. They however want to use copper. I'm not a big fan of running gas in copper (it may get hit), and want to run it in black pipe. 2 companies simply refused to do it, and one quoted almost $500 extra to run 40' of black pipe with 3 T's for the stove, dryer and water heater.

Incidently, what do you guys think of the power vent water heaters? That's what I'll install (40 gallon unit) due to the fact that there is no chimney. Anything I should know about them? So far people only had good things to say about them. Of course if the power goes out there will be no hot water, but if the power goes out there'll be no water at all since I have a well.
 
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Old 02-25-04, 08:34 AM
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When I said 2 stage I meant On the gas line. One regulator on the tank and one by the home. We run them in coper all the time in the home. Dont tap off on the line from the regulator to the furnace. Make that as one line from out side. Be sure and set the W/C on the regulator with all gas units on at the time.

A 2 stage gas furnace will give you a good pay back . Its a lot like are you going to stay in the home for a long time????? Also for the A/C. Look and see if you can't just get the empty coil box and put it on top of the furnace then the plenum nowED
 
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Old 02-26-04, 07:21 AM
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There will be 2 LP regulators, one on the tank and one on the house.
So you're saying that it's better to run 2 lines from the regulator, one going to the furnace and one going to the other locations?
I will talk to the LP people about the pipe size (I think the furnace guy wanted to use a 1/2" copper line to feed the whole house, which in my opinion is a bit small). However, LP is liquid rather then gas, so it may be just the right size.

One of my father's friends is a heating contractor, we'll meet with him today and see what he has to say. I'm not sure what brand he works on, but he didn't speak very highly of Goodman.
 
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Old 02-26-04, 09:57 AM
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When the LP comes off the tank there on a 1st stage it is gas then at about 5 lb psi to the home at the home it is cut to the 11" W/C. Make sure that the regulator there by the home is up so it cant get covered with snow. Have had no heat calls on Lp that the snow was over the vent hole on the regulator an d just shut off the gas. ED
 

Last edited by Ed Imeduc; 03-01-04 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 03-01-04, 08:45 AM
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Ok, we went with a Rheem 90+ 2 stage furnace and 2.5T 10SEER AC. That should be much better then the Goodman. It would have cost an additional $600 to go to a Carrier system.
We'll probably end up getting a Rheem power vent water heater also.

Are 2 stage T-stats always this expensive? It cost $100 for it, and this was at distribuition prices.
 
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Old 03-01-04, 08:56 AM
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They don'[t give them away ED
 

Last edited by Ed Imeduc; 03-01-04 at 02:22 PM.
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