reasonable price for Trane XV90 or XV80


  #1  
Old 09-11-05, 01:14 PM
petarp
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reasonable price for Trane XV90 or XV80

Hi all,

I am going to replace my 30-year old+ furnaces (2) and A/C units with new ones. One of the furnaces has 2 zones, but the A/C operates on only one of the zones (no need for A/C at the lwest level). The house is split, with 2300sqft (650 second level, +650 first level +500 lower level +500sqft finished basement which is not heated).

I received estimate from one company, and another is coming tomorrow. The configurations (both Trane) are as follows:

1st configuration (per system, total prices would be twice as much)

1. XV80 80K BTU gas furnace 2500$
2. XL14i A/C 3 ton 4200$
3. High efficienty coil 500$
4. 2 stage thermostat 190$
5. Labor 1800

Total 9200$

The second configuration is:

1. XV90 80K BTU furnace 3500$
2. XL15i A/C 3 ton 4300$
3. High efficiency coils 500$
4. Two stage thermostat 190$
5. Labor 2100

Total 10600$

I think that these prices are high, but have no idea what a reasonable price is. I base this mainly on Jay's prices (he quoted 7400). Does anyone know what shhould I expect to pay, at least for the units. I understand that the labor cost may be higher in our area (lower NY state).

The company is willing to negotiate. Also, I may not need a 3 ton A/C, and 2 ton may be sufficient (I got an e-mail from them regarding this). The old A/c is 8 SEER.


The other system I am considering is Lennox G60V or G61V, and one of their 14 or 15 SEER A/C units (HS26 or HS27)

I am not sure if I should go with 80 vs 92% efficiency. The 92% efrficiency units require tuning every year, so most of what you save you lose in tune-ups.

All response are appreciated.

Thanks,

Peter
 
  #2  
Old 09-11-05, 02:28 PM
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I can't say about prices.. but when you get bids from other, that may help you get a feel if you are in range.

Are they doing any ductwork changes?? It seems kinda high to me..

I got a new XV90, 2-stage t-stat, air cleaner and 11SEER a/c and was just over $4,000.

go 90%. 80 and 90 are no diffrent in maint.. Just another heat exchanger on the 90's/ Just read the paper that heating cost may go as high as 52% more..
 
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Old 09-11-05, 03:26 PM
petarp
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Jay,

Thanks for your reply. I might go with the higher efficiency...

No duct work, they will use the existing ducts. The only work may be the exhaust pipes for the two furnaces, but that should not add much, since they can easily make the two small holes.

Does your price include the labor? Did they itemize the cost?


Thanks,

Peter
 
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Old 09-11-05, 03:43 PM
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That was the whole package deal.. No price break down.

I read your post again, then I saw you say two furnace.. is that right???
 
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Old 09-11-05, 04:43 PM
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petarp

Do yourself a favor and get a Manual J heat/cool load calcualtion performed. Insist on this in writing.

Am I correct that require two systems for your home?

Either I am misunderstanding your home's requirements or else your home is much larger than 2300 sq ft????????????/

With nat gas prices expected to skyrocket, an 80% AFUE furnace really should not be considered at all.
 
  #6  
Old 09-11-05, 05:47 PM
petarp
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TigerDunes,

The current configuration is with two furnaces (one of them 2 zones), so the requirements for two furnaces is coming from there. The house is 2300sqft + 500 sqft basement, but the basement is not heated.

From redundancy reasons, it is very unlikely both units to stop working at the same time - so I would prefer two smaller units than one larger.

You are right, I need to have the heat/cool load calculation done for proper sizing. BTW, someone mentioned ManualJ being available for free - does anyone have the link?

Any comments on the prices (either labor or the units)?

Thanks,

peter
 
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Old 09-11-05, 06:05 PM
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you dont say where you live here. if up north then a 90%afue furnace and a 12 seer AC. If down south a 80%afue furnace and a seer of 16 for the AC. have you been to http://www.warmair.net and compare fuel cost?? could be go to a heatpump. But with just 2300 sq ft and 2 units I cant see a need for a zone control there on one of the units.If the duct work was done right to start.

ED
 
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Old 09-11-05, 06:46 PM
petarp
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I live 20 miles north of NYC.
Right now one of the furnaces heats the highest floor, and the second furnace heats the other two floors - does this make sense to you? The duct work was done 30years ago by the previous owners...

Thanks,

Peter
 
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Old 09-12-05, 03:56 AM
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petarp

If nat gas is the heating fuel of choice and I assume it is, then I would purchase a furnace with the highest eff that I could find. Nat gas is very unstable as to price and is expected to skyrocket in price this winter.

I do like the var speed blowers for comfort and quiet.

As to your quotes, I would send that dealer packing. Prices are absurd and I really question the sizes quoted.

My opinion.
Good LucK!
 
  #10  
Old 09-12-05, 06:08 AM
petarp
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TigerDunes,

I am having another contractor coming tonight, so hopefully I will get a better offer. I agree (based on some posts that I read on the forum) that the quote is very high.

Any preference Trane vs. Lennox?

Regards,

Peter
 
  #11  
Old 09-12-05, 08:21 AM
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petarp

I personally like Trane over Lennox-I have an XV90. Having said that and considering that nat gas prices will skyrocket this season and will only get worse not better, then I would look at purchasing the most efficient nat gas furnace on the market. I would look at a Bryant 96% AFUE furnace 2 stg var speed-Mod 355MAV. Bryant's website indicates they have a rebate program in place for the fall on selected models. Please do yourself a favor and have a Manual J heat/cool load calculation performed by a reputable dealer.

http://www.bryant.com/corp/details/0...TI8341,00.html

My opinion.
Good Luck!
 
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Old 09-12-05, 08:35 AM
petarp
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TigerDunes,

I see. Is there any dofference between American Standards and Trane? They both come from the same company, and Consumer Reports reports AS has better repair history than Trane, although minor difference.

Regards,

Peter
 
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Old 09-12-05, 09:11 AM
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petarp

I am told for all practical purposes Am Std and Trane furnaces are identical. Keep in mind though that these lines only go up to 92-93% AFUE efficiency. I think either would be a solid choice. Still, I am concerned about nat gas prices and that is why I would look at the 96% AFUE models.

Good LucK!
 
  #14  
Old 09-12-05, 12:44 PM
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Trane and Americand Standard is the same thing apple to apple.. Just diffrent color paint, and diffrent looks on the a/c coil outside.

since you says you need two furance, price should be ok.

http://hvaccomputer.com/talkref.asp

The link above is where you can download the program to size your home.. If you want to make sure you get what your home should have, spend the $50, and it will be the best money you've spent for comfort.

My guts are going to say you need the 60,000 BTU system.

I am ok with Lennox, but I would look at others before them.. Lennox has left a bad taste in my mouth after the have a few system the failed in design.
 
  #15  
Old 09-12-05, 01:50 PM
petarp
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Jay,

I found the free 30 day trial of the program, so I will use that. I got more visits today, and you can immediately see the difference. some are very professional, and know what they are doing. The first guy measured all ducts, looked at the return lines and suggested adding another return line to help equalize the air temperature and flow. He also suggested using one furnace/AC (he well finalize size after he completes ManualJ) but mentioned something like 60k-120K two stage variable speed. So the new system would be 3 zones.

The other company that came were actually two guys who didn't bother to look around or measure anything - just took the BTU numbers. I felt they were more interested getting the money than doing good job - tehy even suggested installing the same size furnaces/ACs as the old ones!!!

So, I now fully understand the importance of having a good contractor.
I will keep you posted what happens in the next few days, when two other guys are coming (one of them did the furnace/AC for my friend who was very happy with the job and the price).

Regards,

Peter
 
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Old 09-12-05, 05:59 PM
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on the 30 day trial, I don't think you can do too much on that one?? Very limited on what you can do ... But good to see one of the guys will do a manual j on the home..

Keep us posted..
 
  #17  
Old 09-13-05, 07:25 AM
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Get 3 bids for this job for sure.

ED
 
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Old 09-18-05, 08:35 PM
petarp
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One more question. I am also going to install air cleaner, should I get the one with media filter or the one with electronic filter and throwaway pre-filter?

Thanks,

Peter
 
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Old 09-19-05, 04:04 AM
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petarp

Stay away from the Electronic Air Cleaners-anecdotal evidence on this forum indicate they cause more problems than they solve. If you have decided on a Trane XV90, then go with the Trane Perfect Fit 5" Media cabinet-it fits to the furnace like a glove. Otherwise, you might want to look at the AprilAire or Honeywell 5" media filter cabinets.

Good LucK!
 
  #20  
Old 09-19-05, 01:39 PM
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Like Tiger said, stay away from the EAC.. They are more hassel than good.

Lot of us here will agree with that..

Go with the Media system.. I have the Honeywell system on mine.
 
  #21  
Old 09-19-05, 02:40 PM
petarp
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Jay, TigerDunes,

I agree. Both dealers suggested the same.

Two more questions.

1. Both insist on R22. Should I insist otherwise? Any other downside except cost in the event of leaks?

2. One of the dealers says that I have to use modulating Zone panel which should cost around 800$. Why should I not use the Honeywell TZ-4 with the XV90? It is only 340?

I am planning to choose one of them by tomorrow.

Thanks,

Peter
 
  #22  
Old 09-19-05, 05:01 PM
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petarp

R-22 or R-410a is OK-I would not turn around for the difference. Just don't pay more for R-410a-not worth it.

I can not comment on zoning devices-just not familiar with them. While not certain, Honeywell may make the Trane zoning controls-you may want to ask the question.

I would hope you received a Manual J load calculation in writing and are only considering the XV90 gas furnace over the XV80. Natural Gas prices scare me.

Good LucK!
 
  #23  
Old 09-20-05, 11:35 AM
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They can still make R22 till the year 2030 Id stay with it for now. I do not like are use zone controls in a home. Cause when you have to put in a bypass damper what do you save

ED
 
  #24  
Old 09-20-05, 01:40 PM
petarp
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OK, I got my last offer - this is Lennox system.

The configuration is Lennox var speed 2 stage G61MPV-036 (66K BTU) furnace(s) and HSXA16 and HSXB15 condensers matched with high efficiency coils.

This offer is lower in price than the Trane offers, so am I going to make a mistake accepting it (regarding quality/features/warranty)?

The waranty on parts for Lennox is 5 years vs. 10 for Trane (if a system is installed).



Thanks,

Peter
 
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Old 09-22-05, 05:44 AM
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petarp

I would hope that you have received a written copy of a Manual J heat/cool load calculation that indicates only one system is required.

I prefer Trane but if the Lennox quote is significantly less expensive, then you have to consider it. If you elect to go with Lennox, find out how much extra to get a 10 yr warranty. Anecdotally people say Lennox is more difficult to work on but this is heresay. Your decision may hinge on how comfortable you are with the Lennox dealer vs the Trane dealer. Based on warranty, Trane thinks more of their products than Lennox but this could be just a marketing ploy.

Good LucK!
 
  #26  
Old 09-22-05, 07:08 AM
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I would ask the Lennox dealer if they have a good inventory, or parts house near by if ever needed overnights, or holiday/weekend..

When I used to be in the field, we had a very hard time getting parts. (we were not a lennox dealer), and very expensive parts..
 
  #27  
Old 09-22-05, 10:43 AM
petarp
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I am going with American Standards. Two systems will be installed (answering TigerDunes question). At the end the deciding factor was the higher repair rate for Lennox (see Consumer Reports from 2/05).

I am signing the contract tonight, so I will keep you posted.

Thanks everyone for their help.

Regards,

Peter
 
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Old 09-22-05, 02:42 PM
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Glad to see you found something at last.

Keep us posted on the job..

Take some pictures to share..
 
  #29  
Old 09-28-05, 07:46 PM
petarp
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I finally signed the contract, the equipment will be American Standards instead of Trane, the furnaces will be equivalent of the XV90s with the matching high efficiency coils, the AC will be 2 ton 14 SEER (equivalent of XL14i); also included is media filter, Honeywell thermostats.
Work starts sometime in October. I will let you know how it comes out....
 
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Old 09-28-05, 08:25 PM
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Glad to see things are ready to roll..

They get you a two stage t-stat? Vision Pro?
 
  #31  
Old 10-25-05, 11:05 AM
petarp
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Hi all,

Yes, they installed VisionPro 8320 2 stage thermostats.

The entire job is finished now and the equipment is operational. Everything works, except the humidifiers that were miswired (they connected the power supply to constantly on 24VAC, instead to the HUM outputs - they are coming tomorro to fix the problem. And the other problem was (already corrected) that they put the EMM-3 instead of the EMM-3U zone panel (which made the furnace to always work with both stages on, since EMM-3 is a single stage zone control panel).

Overall, I am happy with the work done, although I had to second guess what they were doing.

In summary, this is what I got for ~15k:

2 American Standard 2stage, variable speed furnaces (92%), 73/39K BTU
2 high efficiency coils
2 14 SEER American Standard AC units (2ton) - equivalent of Trane XL-14i
2 honeywell F100F media air cleaners
3 thermostats VisionPro8320 (2stage)
1 zone control panel EMM-3U and 2 dampers and actuators
10 year parts and labor extended warranty and 1 year installation warranty

Is the deal good? I think it is. Could I have gotten a better one? I doubt.

I had 9 or 10 offers, and the one accepted came from the least likely source, so I appreciate the advice to get as many offers as possible. I did not want to go with Lennox, although the offer was slightly lower.

I have some questions on the thermostat settings, as well as the controller settings (for those who have the same model), but that will be a separate post.
 
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Old 10-25-05, 12:41 PM
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I think you got a good bid for all the work that was done..

And good to see that they are coming back and take care of minor issues.
 
  #33  
Old 10-25-05, 06:23 PM
petarp
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Hi all,

For the gurus I have another question: the thermostat supports 2 stage heat, and I would like to know what is the optimum setting for the cycles per hour (CPH) for stage 1 and stage 2. they can be set independently and the defauilt values are 5 CPH.

I guess that I want the furnace to spend most o fits time in stage 1, but do not know what setting to use.

Also, the furnaxce supprots delaying stage 2 with respect to stage 1 - should I use that also?

Thanks,

Peter
 
  #34  
Old 10-25-05, 07:02 PM
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In the advance set up menu,in the install manual it will say 3 cycles per hour for hot water/90% system.. so set it to both 1st stage to 3 and 2nd stage to 3.

The furnace delay is used if you don't use the two stage t-stat.. so don't worry about the time delay since you do have the two stage t-stat.


I have this t-stat, and been very happy with it, and very easy to program.
 
  #35  
Old 10-25-05, 08:10 PM
petarp
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Jay,

Thanks. I agree that 8320 is very easy to configure, and the installation manual does help a lot, since all the options are by code. I will lower the setting for the CPH to 3 from 5 for both stages.

Peter
 
  #36  
Old 10-25-05, 08:30 PM
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Over the weekend I had the heat on to get the chills out of the house.. I noticed that our furnace was cycling on and off pretty often.

So yesterday, I went into set up, and was set for 5.. it must of changed when i was playing around for someone else here..

I set it to 2, and I am going to see what happens.. I did noticed it did run pretty steady in low stage for a good hour or so.
 
 

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