Fan on, really isn't!

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  #1  
Old 12-08-05, 02:13 PM
rolandbe
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Fan on, really isn't!

Greetings;

I have a 22 year old natural gas forced air Payne furnace with a newer Honeywell T8602D deluxe programmable thermostat. My system is heat only, single transformer and works well as far as I know. Payne # 394G048125.

I recently added a Desert Aire furnace humidifier, and wanted to turn the fan on constantly to assist in getting the humidity levels up. When switching from auto to "on"....... nothing happens. I've read on this forum for a similiar problem, that touching R to G leads together via jumper wire will activate the fan...... it did not on my system.

My connectivity is as follows:
Therm: R-yellow, W-white, Y-blue, G-green
Furn: yellow-r, white-w, blue-y, green-gh (there is a gc also)
There is a 5th wire unused, orange.

Any assistance in getting the fan to respond to the "on" position would be appreciated. Thank you in advance,

Roland
Issaquah WA
 
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  #2  
Old 12-08-05, 05:21 PM
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Ok, if you don't have A/C.. Switch the switch to Cool, and does the fan come on? (Set temp lower than room).
 
  #3  
Old 12-08-05, 06:03 PM
rolandbe
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NO, it did not. I tried both auto and on, in the cool fuction with no fan operation and the temp set lower than existing room temp..
 
  #4  
Old 12-08-05, 07:33 PM
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Ok, Try to move the t-stat wire from Gh to Gc.

and let us know.

I have never heard of this set up before.. just G
 
  #5  
Old 12-08-05, 08:02 PM
rolandbe
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Thank you Jay for the responses.......

The Gh-Gc are at the furnace, with just G at the thermistat. I went out and moved the wire at the furnace from Gh to Gc. The heat and fan come immediately back on. I shut off the system at the digital Tstat, then switched it to cool. Nothing.... I adjusted the fan from auto to on.... nothing.
I thought just "maybe" the Gh and Gc are for G heat and G cooling, but unless the furnace needs to cool down before going into cool mode, both are heat.

Don't know if it matters, but the furnace is and has been working during these tests. <----- just in case trying to turn on "cool" needs to have a non heated system before it will work.

The digital thermistat has spare unused terminals on it..... they are RC, O, B.
There is an unused terminal at the furnace...... C.

Thanks for your efforts,

Roland
 

Last edited by rolandbe; 12-08-05 at 08:14 PM.
  #6  
Old 12-08-05, 08:43 PM
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Ding ding ding ding... Jumper RC and R together..
 
  #7  
Old 12-09-05, 09:14 AM
rolandbe
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I went to jumper them together, only to find it had already been factory done.

I'm beginning to think that perhaps back in 1984 when this furnace was new that it wasn't suppose to have fan only control.......????

I do appreciate your assistance.... any further ideas gladly accepted.

Roland
 
  #8  
Old 12-09-05, 08:46 PM
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Hummm...

Do you have a meter? Take a reading at the t-stat or at the furnace where G wire meets.

Does this have a board with relays, or wire goes to a transformer meeting other wires?

It woudl have to have a fan control if you got G on it.
 
  #9  
Old 12-09-05, 09:37 PM
rolandbe
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Measurement at the circuit board using C (common) to Gh, and holding panel switch in.... 25.5 volts without fan running. When furnace went thru heat cycle and fan came on 25.3 volts. The T-stat was set at heat/auto.

When the fan actually came on, I heard a click from one of the two relays on the circuit board, then the fan immediately came on. I could take a digital pic of the circuit board if you wished to see it.

Should there NOT have been voltage at the Gh location if/when the fan was at rest? I know less than what I even thought I knew, which wasn't much.

I also searched high and low for some sort of fan switch inside the furnace, but couldn't find anything. Continued thanks for your time,

Roland
 
  #10  
Old 12-10-05, 04:59 AM
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Please do take a picture of the wires/board for us.. This web site won't post pic unless you know how.. Otherwise, post it to yahoo photo or msn. and link us there.
 
  #11  
Old 12-10-05, 08:59 AM
rolandbe
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pic of circuit board at
http://www.netsnapshot.com/pcw/b?KEY=9&ACCOUNT=2412

My apologies for where it's located, but it's the only way I knew of doing this.

Also, mounted to fan shroud is a brown electrical connector with multiple male studs...... the green wire coming from the T-stat goes to Gh, then down to one of the studs. There is nothing else attached there????????? Looks lonely to me.

Roland
 
  #12  
Old 12-10-05, 11:05 AM
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Can you see on your furnace where it turns your 24 volts thermostat/thermostat-furnace hookup into 110 to run the fan?

For example, furnaces that have those Honeywell fan switches (those 2 inch by 3 inch silver boxes on the furnace above the burner area, can have the fan run all the time by pushing in the button. But there, it is already 110. And by pushing in the button you obviously complete the line voltage to the fan. But with yours, there is going to be something, a relay, something, that turns your 24 volts into 110 and it is at that place where you might have your problem.

Unless that thermostat somehow is not right for doing this. BUT, with the 4 wire hookups, you would think so. But I'm not positive. Do you have a way of confirming if that thermostat is capable of doing that? Is it for a heat + fan gas furnace application? (Or was it meant for oil?) If you no longer have the box for the thermostat, because it is a Honeywell, and these are often sold at Home centers, you could call one up and ask if they have that model one, and then find out what it says, the wiring, etc.

How do you hone in on that website to see the pic? I get car stuff over there.
 
  #13  
Old 12-10-05, 11:26 AM
rolandbe
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Sorry Bonehead...... look at LAST picture.

The thermostat is adjustable for gas/oil-electric furnaces. This one is set gas/oil. I recently checked that.

I just pulled the panel at the burner area, and I see no extra box with a button.

Please look thru the pictures again at the circuit board..... hopefully something there will make more sense to you than it does with me. Thanks,

Roland
 
  #14  
Old 12-10-05, 06:59 PM
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Thanks for the pictures..


Ok. I noticed a couple things.... Pleaase reply on the questions below..

1- What's wired up to the relay (brown control on blower housing) it looks like nothing is there but I want to make sure.

2-The Red wire from R going down to a wire splice to yellow.. Is the wire at the t-stat yellow to R?

3-On the furnace board, is there a jumper between R and GH?? Can't really tell.

4- What letter is on the board between RC and White/C?.. and where is that wire going to?

5-Is the GH wire(Green?) going up to the t-stat?

~~~~~~~

I see your problem already.. But I want to make sure first when you reply on the questions above.
 
  #15  
Old 12-10-05, 08:16 PM
rolandbe
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1. The blue wire coming from the T-stat (y) goes to the screw terminal Y at the circuit board, then goes down to that brown thing on the fan housing and it is the only thing terminated on the brown do-dad.

2. Yes..... it goes to R at both locations.

3. I'm unsure..... there is a fixed metal wire in between the two terminals, but not connected on the front side..... each side goes to the back of the circuit board. YES, my multimeter shows continuity between the two leads with the red/green wires lifted off the circuit board screw down.

4.I'm unsure I understand the question.
The letters on the bottom of the circuit board are going left to right;
C-Y-Gc-Gh-R-W all wires on circuit board screw down go directly to T-stat, including blue wire on Y that also terminates on the brown thingy #1.
C-Gc-W are unsused, Y-Gh-R-W going to T-stat.

5. Yes....

A minor point, but I found out that this circuit board is for heat and cooling, hence the Gh and Gc. Whoopee huh? If you need further pics or anything, let me know.

I appreciate you sticking with me on this Jay,

Roland
 
  #16  
Old 12-11-05, 04:02 AM
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Ok, Thanks!

House cleaning time!

Remove that brown relay, and the wire that goes to it.. Leave the Y wire alone on the board from t-stat.

I am not sure why or what the brown relay is for.. Do you have a humidifer or used to?


Now for the TEST!

Turn off the power..

Move that red/orange wire that connects to the blower.. On the board, right now it's hooked up to "LO".. Move it over to "HI".

Turn the power back on, press the door switch on the left side of the blower door. Turn the t-stat fan to ON, see if it runs. If yes, then that's your problem.

What it looks like someone removed the wire that goes from "HI" to the speed block next to the blower.. (c-1low-2med low-3med high-4high)

If that works. then put your wire back onto "LO" on the board so you can have heat.

What you need to do, and find another wire that will slip over that "Hi" term on the board, down to the speed block.
 
  #17  
Old 12-11-05, 08:01 AM
rolandbe
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Wow, that sounds simple enough. I'll try it as soon as heat builds up in the house..... it's early here.

"IF" that fixes the problem, I'm mildly confused on the permanent fix. I just get the same gauge heavy wire, put on connector on both ends and plug it in. At the fan connector, does it go on position 2, 3, or 4? <----- Does the position in the "fan on" mode matter or is it my choice as to which "feel" I like?

I have a humidifier now, but that is what led to this post. The brown thing has always been there to my knowledge and no idea as to what it may have been used for. I don't go in there too often.

Thanks again,

Roland
 
  #18  
Old 12-11-05, 10:03 AM
rolandbe
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I'm sad to say.... it didn't work. NO fan...... The furnace lit up the burners, but the fan never came on at all...... in either ON or AUTO.

I have a neighbor who has an old Pain furnace and I'll ask if I can look at hers when she comes home. Maybe I can take pics and get some further ideas from her system (house is as old as mine, and I knopw hers is a Payne furnace also). Hopefully it will be the same system..... he said with fingers crossed.

Thanks Jay for your efforts..... I'm frustrated but at least lucky that the heat portion is working..... I'll be back when I have something usefull to report. If I get pics and there is a big difference, could we share e-mail info and I send them direct to you? Or would you prefer them as posted on the last one?

PICTURE HAS BEEN REMOVED

Roland
 
  #19  
Old 12-11-05, 10:50 AM
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Did the fan work on COOL setting? fan will not run in HEAT cuz we moved the wire over to HI on the board.

I think I now know why the relay is there.. Sounds like the board does not work in fan ON. and maybe cool as well.. So that relay was wired in to run the fan in ON/COOL side of the t-stat.

Seeing that the wire that is used for the heating, it was spliced..


I will have to sit down and draw it out on paper to make it work for you with that relay with out having to replace the board.
 
  #20  
Old 12-11-05, 11:07 AM
rolandbe
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NO.... fan did not run in COOL setting, either on or auto, with temp set at 60 degrees.

Neighbor still not home so no peek at her system yet.

No wonder each time a furnace repair person has been out they complain about the last person out....... I'm doubting that the fan "on" or cooling has ever worked on this thing, and I don't remember ever trying it before.

That circuit board was replaced in 1996, along with the transformer and burners for what little that may be worth. I would be willing to purchase and install another circuit board if you think that is the problem.

ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE A PAYNE UPFLOW 394G048125 GAS FIRED FORCED AIR FURNACE THEY CAN SNAP A PIC OF THE CIRCUIT BOARD/FAN INSTALL AND FORWARD TO *********@*******.net????

Roland
 

Last edited by mattison; 12-12-05 at 04:18 AM. Reason: Sorry, Roland but no e-mail addresses in the open forum.
  #21  
Old 12-11-05, 02:39 PM
rolandbe
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My neighbor came home and I got a chance to look at her furnace...... geezus this is getting complicated. I shall try to explain as best I can.

First off, there ARE three wires going to her fan...... so I will get that item tomorrow.

On her system, that brown THING is used..... big time.

The red wire from the stat goes to a place unseen (didn't wanna take her furnace apart further) but I believe it is getting 24v for the stat.

The brown thing has 10 male connectors on it, 4 on each side with 2 in the middle. Counting from left to right, and front to back .. 1-2-3-4/ 5-6/ 7-8-9-10.

Yellow goes to left side of THING from T-stat (1)
Blue goes to left side of THING from T-stat (3)
Green goes to middle of THING from circuit board G (5)
C goes to right side of THING from circuit board C (8)
R goes to left side of THING from circuit board R (4)
W goes to right side of THING from circuit board W (10)
T-STAT: red to R, blue to G, yellow to W

This would explain why the red wire has a splice on it, as it use to fit at the THING.

I did check at the T-stat and her fan does come on when switched from auto to on. Should I get the newly needed fan lead installed, then try wiring this up as hers is wired? I'm starting to get a headache from all of this!

Jay..... I have some pics of hers if needed.

Roland

Roland
 

Last edited by rolandbe; 12-11-05 at 03:02 PM.
  #22  
Old 12-11-05, 07:38 PM
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Please send the pic to jaymarking at charter dot net

[email protected]

dot- .

I wonder WHY they using this relay??

I'll be waiting for the pictures.
 
  #23  
Old 12-11-05, 08:49 PM
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are there any numbers on the part? you can try to enter them here:
http://www.expertappliance.com/payne-heating.html

would that thing be the sequencer? or contactor?
 
  #24  
Old 12-11-05, 11:48 PM
rolandbe
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Jay, U have mail.

Tae, I tried that site.... found these numbers 741-91-151, However, you need to know the part name as it won't look it up with just a number. Well, it wouldn't for me. However.......

http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg....r_1875_3066481

look at the above link...... the pic is a "switching relay 120vac". It only has 8 lugs, where the one on my furnace has 10, plus I'd bet a nickel mine is only 24vac. BUT, it looks sorta like what is on my furnace, plus my neighbors.

In thinking on this, I'm almost sure the THING has been there since my furnace was installed, and was used originally. Ok, it's late and I don't truly know what I'm talking about anyways ;-)

Thank you folks,

Roland
 
  #25  
Old 12-12-05, 10:09 AM
rolandbe
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Monday morning update;
I went to the furnace parts store to get another "fan" cable..... didn't have exactly what I wanted but he gave me a 5 conductor pigtail that plugs into the connector at the fan housing..... I will shut down power and splice in the old and new leads shortly.

A question: the fan connects at the circuit board on "low", yet goes to connector #1 on the fan which is high...... I'm going to add another lead from the circuit board "hi" to pin #3 which is lower speed. Shouldn't the connection at the circuit board be just the opposite? This has me confused.

I asked the counterperson about the brown relay..... he went inside and came back with one identicle pin wise to mine. He stated that it was used for fan switching from high to low speeds (or vise versa), adding a electronic filter, humidifier or something along those lines. When asked of my furnace type and year, he stated it wasn't needed on mine and was added after install just like was mentioned here. So, with the splice in the red fan wire around that location, I'll bet a serviceperson added it on for some reason. My neighbor DOES have an electric filter on her furnace, plus a switch on the side of the furnace for fan speed (a rheostat thing)<------ fyi.

I can remove all wiring at circuit board and take measurements if someone can tell me what/where to check, IF that would be helpfull. Tell me what ya need and I'll try to accomodate. Thanks again,

Roland

I hope all this info. is helpfull and not just wasting server space here.
 
  #26  
Old 12-12-05, 12:53 PM
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"LO" is your heating speed, most likely the are put on 1.

"HI" is your cooling/fan only speed" an avg person puts it on 4, but I don't like the fan running that fast.. I some time put it on 2 or 3.

Right now, Your "HI" tap is not working. so it's not doing you any good. unless you want to replace the board.

Just for kicks, with the heat off.

at the board, put a jumper between R and G, and take a voltage reading at the "HI" tap.
 
  #27  
Old 12-12-05, 02:17 PM
rolandbe
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K, I turned the heat off @ the T-stat and waited for furnace to finish cycle. I removed the door and jumpered terminals between R and Rh, and connected my multimeter to C and Hi..... nothing. As I was sitting here typing this, it dawned on me that I might get a better reading with the blower safety switch pushed in, so I went back and tried it again. Using my 3rd hand to push in on the safety switch, I still got no reading.

I think I may have done something silly, as I then jumpered R to Gc..... and the relay on the left of the circuit board sparked. I was curious if that would make a difference. Hopefully it didn't damage anything..... groan. I should know in another 10-15 minutes.

Know any place in the greater Seattle area that has reasonable prices for circuit boards????? It does look like the circuit board is going south doesn't it?

Roland
 
  #28  
Old 12-12-05, 06:25 PM
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Ok.. It's not the stat then if you didn't get a reading on the board..

At first you said you jumper R and RH.. did you mean GH?
 
  #29  
Old 12-12-05, 07:03 PM
rolandbe
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Yes... Gh ... red face.

Furnace is still working ok, sparks from relay didn't fry anything.

Should I just replace the circuit board? If so, with T-stat wired as such, would the fan on and cooling work?

Is this a decent deal?
http://americanhvacparts.com/Merchan...de=cb-daynight

If the answer is yes to all above, I'll order it. Thanks,

Roland
 
  #30  
Old 12-12-05, 09:04 PM
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Yeah, the fan on and A/c part should work.


I'd say the price is good too for a board.
 
  #31  
Old 12-13-05, 08:54 AM
rolandbe
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Thank you a bunch Jay for all of your time..... I shall order a new board, install it and see where this takes me.

Roland
 
  #32  
Old 12-17-05, 09:10 AM
rolandbe
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New circuit board installed...... no difference. System works in heat auto only.
I have noticed that the fan only works when plugged into the first setting (1lo-2-3-4), and in heat auto. Position 2 or 3 gives no fan when furnace does a heat cycle. Position 4 has no wiring to fan.

The new board has a long list of adding jumpers, cutting jumpers, cutting resistors, etc.. Perhaps this being an old furnace with a modern board, something like just mentioned needs to be done. Ironically, the new circuit board is called "fan control center". Here's a link that might mean more to you than it did to me.

http://www.icmcontrols.com/products/pdf/icm271-ag.pdf
Any thoughts or ideas, I'm all ears. Thanks again,

Roland
 
  #33  
Old 12-17-05, 12:48 PM
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I'll look at it otnight when I get home from work.
 
  #34  
Old 12-17-05, 04:41 PM
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It sounds to me (?) like you started out with a heat only furnace and then someone added a relay either for a.c or "fan on" operation. I have never seen a Payne of that vintage that didn't have 2 relays on board if it was a heat/cool furnace.. Did I miss something in other posts? How many wires are coming out of motor?
 
  #35  
Old 12-17-05, 07:45 PM
rolandbe
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The pigtail is marked traditional C-1-2-3-4, but wiring only on common, one, two and three. In doing a lil playing, the fan will ONLY work on the heat cycle in auto mode plugged into #1 pigtail position. At position 2 or 3..... no fan.

It could be that this Pain furnace started life as a heat only furnace, was perhaps upgraded with that brown relay for fan ON during one of past service calls. ?????? All I know is I didn't put it in there.

What confuses me is that the furnace is kinda like me...... dumb. If the circuit board and thermostat will do all of these wonderous things, why doesn't the furnace go along with it? Sure wish I had an original "virgin" I could look at............ but, 22 year old virgins are rare, even for furnaces ;-) Then when I read the directions on the new circuit board and all the options, I got more confused than I already was.

Thanks folks,

Roland
 
  #36  
Old 12-17-05, 08:03 PM
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Ok

Since you've tried to hook up the heating speed to 2 and 3.. and no go.. just on 1.. Do you have an OHM setting on your meter? see if you have a bad motor winding..

next. did you check to see if you are getting 24 volts from the G wire from the t-stat? (switch to ON)

If no. then there either the g wire isn't screws on at the t-stat sub base or a break in the wire.

It doen't look like you need to do much to the new board.. did you do anything to it yet? Cutting/jumpers?
 
  #37  
Old 12-17-05, 08:23 PM
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Roland this is not as difficult as it seems. If I could view the picture I could probably figure it out pretty quickly. You are already getting power back to the funace on the G wire. That means the tsat is fine. There are a couple ways I can think of to get it fixed. The easiest probably being simply adding a relay. Ok after looking at the schematic,this may work. On the board, jumper hi and lo and connect to the blower wire. Then jumper gh and gc and connect to the g wire from the tstat. There may be a delay before the blower starts but it should work.
 

Last edited by thermofridge; 12-17-05 at 08:51 PM.
  #38  
Old 12-18-05, 10:05 AM
rolandbe
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Morning gents... thx for the responses.

Jay: I tried my ohm meter, connecting common to each position with no readings. I then tried the same with meter set to "continuity" and got a tone on 1-2 & 3. This tells me at least 2 & 3 are connected to something.

YES, there is 24+ volts at G of circuit board in both auto and ON.

I have done nothing to the new board except install it, no jumpers/cutting.

Thermofridge; This "shouldn't" be as difficult as it seems..... I'll agree to that much. K, so I should jumper the heat/cooling/fan wire together. Then jumper the heat/cooling/G wire together at the circuit board. OK, I shall go try that out.

How should I have tested the fan motor?????

TEST RESULTS: system shut off at T-stat and furnace off at power panel. I jumpered as mentioned above. As soon as circuit breaker was turned on.... the fan is on constantly, and so far T-stat shows system still off. Unjumpering the HI lead ONLY shuts fan off. Leaving the Gh & Gc jumpered, the fan does NOT run during the normal heat cycle when the burners are on. Once the burners go out, then the fan will come on. Unjumpering h&c has system back to normal.... fan running as soon as heat is high enough and burners still on..

Roland
 

Last edited by rolandbe; 12-18-05 at 10:40 AM.
  #39  
Old 12-18-05, 07:08 PM
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Well according to the literature, power on GC should energize Hi speed blower.If you have no wire hooked to Hi, you may have a single speed fan motor. Check to see if you have 120v on Hi when GC is powered. (G on tstat to GC on board with fan switch on) If you do, then you need to get that power to the blower. If the blower is 2 or 3 speed, it will have a red(hi) blue(med) and or black(low) wire. Also it will have a white or yellow wire wich is neutral or common. You should be able to jumper Hi to Lo as they are hooked to the same relay.
 

Last edited by thermofridge; 12-18-05 at 07:32 PM.
  #40  
Old 12-19-05, 12:53 PM
rolandbe
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The fan has 4 wires coming up to the pigtail connector..... C-white, 1-black, 2-blue, 3-red and 4 is vacant.

I did get 120v at HI with stat wire G moved to Gc on circuit board. I made up a HI speed fan cable and tested it on position 2.... nothing. I then tested it on position 3..... it worked (which surprised me cuz I got nothing there before) in both cooling AND heat ON positions. Hhhmmmm, I said. If it works in the ON position of heat...... will the heat cycle actually work without the G wire connected to Gh of circuit board????

I can't explain why, but it works SUCCESSFULLY as wired! I have a normal heat cycle in auto, can turn the fan ON, and have cooling access for many months from now. I don't understand why it works WITHOUT the G green lead on Gh..... but I'm not going to argue 8-)

Many thanks to Thermofridge and Jay11J for their efforts and time.

Roland
 
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