Tappan heater model G6RA won't ignite - steady red light

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  #1  
Old 11-05-07, 01:57 AM
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Tappan heater model G6RA won't ignite - steady red light

Tappan heater model G6RA won't ignite - steady red light

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a nine year old horizontal tappan gas furnace with electronic
ignition. I have two main issues. Bear in mind i replaced the
thermostat last year and the flame sensor.

Issue #1 The furnace won't ignite. The main blower runs (and is
problem #2 as it won't shut off) There is a steady red light on the
control board but the yellow light doesn't ever flicker. I don't hear
the other blower evaculate any gases and the igniter doesnt glow.
There is no gas odor. I have turned on and off the main power to the
furnace and nothing. I replaced the batteries in the thermostat and i
do have gas supplied as my gas water heater works fine.


Is it possible that a broken ignitor is the issue? If the igniter
doesn't work, would the system act the way its acting now? I cleared
out any cob or spider webs from the plenum and other orifices.


Issue #2 The main blower won't shut off. I have lightly banged on the fan
limit switch housing to no avail.

Could this be the thermostat? I have heard i should jumper R to W on the circuit board to see if the ignitor would glow. If this is correct, its just a matter of attaching a wire to the two terminals right? and i should pull off the wires that are already there before i jump? I have a suspicioun that it's the thermostat but i have also heard its a safety limit switch.

I have also heard there is a "reset" switch that has to be manually pressed - where in the heck would that be?

I can't call a "pro" as i was laid off last Friday and money is a serious concern.

Any guidance would be helpful.


THanks


Dave Rimmer
Independence Missouri
 
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  #2  
Old 11-05-07, 06:02 AM
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Hi dave:

Usually when the blower runs all the time either a limit switch is open or the blower motor relay is bad. Start by taking all the wires at the circuit board that come in from the thermostat [first make a sketch of which color went where]. Then jumper R to W at the circuit board, turn the power back on and see what happens. This way you have eliminated the t-stat and it's wiring from the equation. BTW- do you have a multimeter?
 
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Old 11-05-07, 06:15 AM
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multimeter

yes i do have a multimeter
 
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Old 11-05-07, 12:03 PM
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OK well do the wiring mentioned in my last post and lets see what happens. If it still doesn't work, we'll have to try to locate the limits and rollout switches.
 
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Old 11-06-07, 04:48 AM
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Gotcha

Going out to do the thermostat jumping now. Cross fingers.

and thanks.

Dave
 
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Old 11-06-07, 05:14 AM
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Jump here?

Is this where i should jump? Just wanting to be positive..

thanks

dave

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/1888637662/
 

Last edited by daverimmer; 11-06-07 at 05:16 AM. Reason: image did not publish
  #7  
Old 11-06-07, 07:29 AM
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Yes right there from R to W on the board. That is the same thing your thermostat does; it makes a circuit loop from R to W.
 
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Old 11-10-07, 01:17 PM
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Okay, jumping R to W...

Ok, Jumping R to W didn't do anything. I think its time for the multimeter.

I am assuming i need to test the safety and limit switches. Not sure what readings i should expect other than continuity.

There are what? seven switches? Pressure, door (which isn't wired anyway) igniter, hi limit switch, and bllower limit, flame roll out ... which should i check first? i replace the hi-limit last year and scraped off the flame sensor. I suspect neither of these last two are the current issue as the inducer won't even go on.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

Dave Rimmer
 
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Old 11-10-07, 02:15 PM
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inducer not starting - ignitor possibly bad?

Ok

I was unable to safely get to the terminals of the pressure switch
while the furnace was running - but i did try a continuity check on
the igniter and got nothing. So i removed the u-shaped igniter which
looks like an electric bbq coals starter- only smaller and checked
continuity again. First i checked the terminals and nothing - then i
touched the base at one side and started around the looop - i got no
continuity tone until i got within a 1/4 inch of the other continuity
lead.

This means the ignitor is bad i hope? Would this keep the inducer
from starting?

I also tested the flat black rectanular sensor which has two prongs sticking out and i got continuity there.

Thanks


Dave
 
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Old 11-10-07, 05:12 PM
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Is your meter good? Did you test your two leads together to make sure before touching where you did on the flame sensor? See any fine breaks in the ignitor or even a whitish marking on it (which will signify a weak/burned spot)?

IF you have a flame sensor that looks like the ignitor part itself that glows is like fine black gritty sandpaper - you do not ever want to touch that. The oils in your skin will prematurely burn out the ignitor.

In my experience, the ventor comes on first in the sequence. The ignitor comes on after the draft inducer and will not even bother to try to come on unless that draft inducer is on and creating proper pressure.
 
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Old 11-10-07, 05:34 PM
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wince

dang it - i was hoping that wasn't the case.

ok sequence of events:

1) call for heat
2) inducer starts

my inducer doesnt start - does that indicate a safety or limit switch failure? this furnace worked fine last year after i replaced the hi limit switch and sand papered (without touching) the flame sensor. I don't believe in coincidence so i am hoping the pressure sensor is still good. what would keep the inducer off?
 
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Old 11-10-07, 08:19 PM
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The inducer motor has to start up and close the air proving switch before the sequence will continue. So, with R to W jumpered, see if voltage is getting to the inducer motor. You could also remove the plug at the board and test the inducer motor for continuity. You should get a low ohms reading if it's good. Also, try taking the inducer motor assembly apart and spin the wheel. Maybe the bearings in the motor are just stuck from being idle over the Summer.
 
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Old 11-10-07, 08:27 PM
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thanks

i will do that first thing in the morning
 
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Old 11-11-07, 09:49 AM
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And to add to Dj's suggestions, I have had to replace ventor motor sequencers to allow the current to get to the motor.
 
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Old 11-11-07, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by daddyjohn View Post
Maybe the bearings in the motor are just stuck from being idle over the Summer.
He might get a hum then, from the motor.

Dave, do you?
 
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Old 11-11-07, 10:12 AM
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hum

no hum, but a lot of cursing.

inducer motor is static - that is nothing is happening there at all - no clicking, no apparent attempt to start. nada, nothing, zilch.
 
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Old 11-11-07, 10:18 AM
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You have to see if power is getting to it. I kind of doubt it. You will have to trace back hot wire and see. Are you going to do any of the suggested tests soon?
 
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Old 11-11-07, 10:58 AM
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going under the house right now

be right back in about 30 min
 
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Old 11-11-07, 11:30 AM
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going under the house right now

be right back in about 30 min
 
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Old 11-11-07, 11:33 AM
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jumper the ignitor

i am thinking that maybe i could jumper the ignitor on the control board to see if the inducer would start? anyone think this is a workable plan?
 
  #21  
Old 11-11-07, 12:00 PM
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Results

ok here are the results.

The inducer and pressure switch both have continuity.

The inducer has 15 volts ac being supplied to it

the pressure switch has 24 volts going to it.

Now i am completely thumped - unless its again the ignitor or maybe the pressure switch?
 
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Old 11-11-07, 12:17 PM
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No. Because the ignitor sequences after the ventor motor.

If you are stumped and have not followed say dj's suggestions or you can't comprehend any of this, we will have to start over and explain stuff better.

First you have to have 120 volts to your furnace.

You also have to be sure that the blower door is secure and that the blower door switch is good. That is an interlock switch that if that switch is bad, no furnace function will be able to take place. It is a safety switch, just like the lid switch on a washing machine is.

You also need the transformer to produce 24 volts. You can test for that by touching your test leads of your tester to the two small wires coming out of the transformer.

You then have to have the 24 volts go up to the thermostat and back to the furnace again when the temp upstairs calls for heat. -IF- you have that, and you have to make sure of all that stuff first, THEN one begins testing to see why there is no power making it to the ventor motor or if the ventor motor is burned out.

A simple continuity test of the ventor wire motors, with the furnace turned off will tell you the latter. And you can find out if full 120 volt current is making it to the ventor motor; either by tracing the hot wire back (IF one is black and the other is white, it be the black one) to some relay or control board and testing there, or just clipping the wire in half (with furnace turned off) and setting your voltmeter to be able to record 120 volts, and you touch one lead to that hot wire (that is on the furnace side of where you clipped, not the ventor side) and the other lead of the voltmeter on any metal of the furnace that you know for a fact grounds well, or to an absolute ground, or common ground green wire somewhere. To do this test, the furnace then must be turned back on with the thermostat set for heat (I hope you do not have something like the thermostat set to OFF - that WOULD take the cake),and you may have to wait up to say a minute before the sequencing transpires, that then allows current to go to the ventor, before you really know anything conclusively.
 
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Old 11-11-07, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by daverimmer View Post
ok here are the results.

The inducer and pressure switch both have continuity.

The inducer has 15 volts ac being supplied to it

the pressure switch has 24 volts going to it.

Now i am completely thumped - unless its again the ignitor or maybe the pressure switch?

FULL continuity of a motor can also mean dead short, in an AC motor. To test for this, place one test lead on ONE inducer wire and then the other test lead touching the motor casing. It should show dead/no continuity.\ [Editted to add when doing this test both wires on the inducer must be disconnected or clipped, else you can get a backfeed that renders this test useless.]

The inducer (or ventor as I sometimes call it) requires 120 volts, not 12 or 15 volts.

....................

Note that my post #22 was being typed while you posted your post #21, and I did not see it yet.
 
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Old 11-11-07, 12:41 PM
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thanks - here is where i am

Okay here is what i have done and what i think i know....see inside the quotes for my italicized comments.

Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
No. Because the ignitor sequences after the ventor motor.

If you are stumped and have not followed say dj's suggestions or you can't comprehend any of this, we will have to start over and explain stuff better.

I thought i have followed his suggestions? where did i go wrong??

First you have to have 120 volts to your furnace.

You also have to be sure that the blower door is secure and that the blower door switch is good. That is an interlock switch that if that switch is bad, no furnace function will be able to take place. It is a safety switch, just like the lid switch on a washing machine is.

Door switch is unwired .. i am testing the furnace control board and components with the larger door open while the blower door itself is securely fastened

You also need the transformer to produce 24 volts. You can test for that by touching your test leads of your tester to the two small wires coming out of the transformer.

It appears the transformer is putting out the 24 volts as evidenced by the output measured by the voltmeter to the pressure switch. although i am concerned that only 15 v went to the inducer itself - although that may just be the holding state current

You then have to have the 24 volts go up to the thermostat and back to the furnace again when the temp upstairs calls for heat. -IF- you have that, and you have to make sure of all that stuff first, THEN one begins testing to see why there is no power making it to the ventor motor or if the ventor motor is burned out.

The thermostat is jumpered out R to W right now.

A simple continuity test of the ventor wire motors, with the furnace turned off will tell you the latter. Continuity is good for the ventor wire (inducer?)And you can find out if full 120 volt current is making it to the ventor motor; Only got 15 volts when furnace on but this could be a holding state when its not running right?either by tracing the hot wire back (IF one is black and the other is white, it be the black one) to some relay or control board and testing there, or just clipping the wire in half (with furnace turned off) and setting your voltmeter to be able to record 120 volts, and you touch one lead to that hot wire (that is on the furnace side of where you clipped, not the ventor side) and the other lead of the voltmeter on any metal of the furnace that you know for a fact grounds well, or to an absolute ground, or common ground green wire somewhere. To do this test, the furnace then must be turned back on with the thermostat set for heat (I hope you do not have something like the thermostat set to OFF - that WOULD take the cake),and you may have to wait up to say a minute before the sequencing transpires, that then allows current to go to the ventor, before you really know anything conclusively.
 

Last edited by daverimmer; 11-11-07 at 12:47 PM. Reason: color codint
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Old 11-11-07, 12:58 PM
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inducer motor continuity

while i got a continuity tone when touching both leads of the meter to the two leads from the inducer, i did NOT get a tone when i touched a bare metal ground with one lead while touching first one and then the second lead from the inducer.

this means the inducer is good? (venter)


Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
FULL continuity of a motor can also mean dead short, in an AC motor. To test for this, place one test lead on ONE inducer wire and then the other test lead touching the motor casing. It should show dead/no continuity.\ [Editted to add when doing this test both wires on the inducer must be disconnected or clipped, else you can get a backfeed that renders this test useless.]

The inducer (or ventor as I sometimes call it) requires 120 volts, not 12 or 15 volts.

....................

Note that my post #22 was being typed while you posted your post #21, and I did not see it yet.
 
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Old 11-11-07, 01:00 PM
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Regarding your continuity question in red type: It can mean both good or bad. Generally with a motor you should get SOME resistance. NO resistance means dead short. SOME (little, single digit number?) resistance usually means it is good. So I guess by saying 'continuity' we probably don't want THAT so much as we want an absolute readout of what the ohms actually are.

So your blower door is not wired? Can you explain that more? No switch in it ever? or was it bypassed? or ?. I guess all that is really needed to know though is that if your furnace worked before, and you had no switch THEN, then I guess we have nothing to worry about then, in this department.
 
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Old 11-11-07, 01:03 PM
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ohms

i got 11 ohms when i checked the inducer motor for continuity.

as far as the switch, the previous owner had a "jobber" install the furnace and while he put the switch in the door it has no wires attached to it.

DJ has said that with an open HSI circuit the inducer won't even attempt to kick on. That is what seems to be happening now. Is it worth jumpering that connection? Those wires to the ignitor are pretty heavy duty.

while i was checking for continuity i also put one lead on the flame sensor at its metal base and the other lead on a bare metal ground - i got nothing. I was kind of surprised because it would appear that with it's one wire to the control board that it's circuit completes through ground. Does this seem significant?
 

Last edited by daverimmer; 11-11-07 at 01:07 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 11-11-07, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by daverimmer View Post
i got 11 ohms when i checked the inducer motor for continuity.
So the motor sounds good to me. About an expected number.

as far as the switch, the previous owner had a "jobber" install the furnace and while he put the switch in the door it has no wires attached to it.
Has the furnace worked since? If so, then we'll forget talking about that switch.

DJ has said that with an open HSI circuit the inducer won't even attempt to kick on. That is what seems to be happening now. Is it worth jumpering that connection? Those wires to the ignitor are pretty heavy duty.
We'd better both go back and reread what he said. I think you have it backwards. I think he said that the ignitor circuit comes on after the ventor circuit - and it does. The idea of this is that the furnace, for safety reasons, does not want to start up and ignite and fire until it knows that the inside drafting of the furnace is of the proper pressure.

Nothing is worth jumpering. No. You get that ventor up and running and that ignitor will come on by itself. I'm suspecting you have a bad sequencer at this point. They do not generally cost all that much. - that is if it is separate and sold separate from a control board.
 
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Old 11-11-07, 01:35 PM
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sequencer?

where is it located?

any idea what it may look like?

so if the hsi circuit is open (or any other limit switch) than you are saying that would not cause the inducer to fail to start?
 

Last edited by daverimmer; 11-11-07 at 01:36 PM. Reason: clarity
  #30  
Old 11-11-07, 02:25 PM
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Do not jumper the HSI terminals, that would be a dead short. If you're only getting 15 volts to the inducer motor that needs to investigated more. What is the voltage going to the board from the power supply to the furnace? It should be 120 volts. If you have that, pull the molex plug off the board that supplies voltage to the ignitor and the inducer. Test the two pins that supply power to the inducer, you should read120 volts. If you only have 15 volts there, remove the board, turn it over and look for a burnt spot or melted solder. If you have to take wires off the board in order to get it out, make a good sketch of where the wires go.
 
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Old 11-11-07, 04:40 PM
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gotcha

I will pull the wires for the inducer out of the control board and replace them with the leads of my ohmmeter. i am looking for 120 volts output.

thanks all

dave
 
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Old 11-12-07, 05:21 AM
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just got this email from a man who had the same symptoms with his tappan as i do

Michael lawrence to me
show details 7:15 AM (2 minutes ago) Reply



dave,
i pulled out the ignitor and it was bad. no doubt
because it had split in it. i got a universal ignitor
from a heating and cooling guy for 50 bucks. i also
went to the local hardware store but non of them had
"universal" ignitors. It was a little bit of a *****
fitting it in but i got it in. and it works fine.
good luck. if ya have anymore questions let me know.
 
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Old 11-12-07, 06:46 AM
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Man with same symptom?

Are you sure he specifically said his ventor motor never came on first? And that by replacing his HSI, that completely fixed his furnace? You sure about that detail?
 
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Old 11-12-07, 06:47 AM
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Sure?

no but i will find out.... will report back as soon as i hear
 
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Old 11-12-07, 06:57 AM
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How did you do this 'continuity' test? Did you actually bring up any ohms numbers on it?

IF it turns out that your problem IS indeed a weak or completely shot ignitor, this will be a new one on me.

How old again is your furnace? IF this is the case, then I guess one will have to test for ignitors on some of the newer? furnaces out there, if this is the case. Maybe their board analyzes more initial feedback 'information', and figures if all the information does not come back, it is not worth having ANYTHING come on.

Do an actual ohms test on those igfnitor wires and tell us what number you have.
 

Last edited by ecman51; 11-12-07 at 07:06 AM. Reason: in lieu of later post, eliminated part of this one
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Old 11-12-07, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by daverimmer View Post

- but i did try a continuity check on
the igniter and got nothing........ First i checked the terminals and nothing - then i
touched the base at one side and started around the looop - i got no
continuity tone until i got within a 1/4 inch of the other continuity
lead.

This means the ignitor is bad i hope? Would this keep the inducer
from starting?
Ah. THIS is the appropriate quote. Yes, you must retest the ignitor and give us the actual ohm reading results as taken right from the pin terminals on the end of the ignitor wires.

Ahhh. And I see by the word "tone" you were strictly in continuity mode on your tester rather than taking an actual ohms reading. You always want to take an actual ohms read as it is even possible with HSI's to get some sort of continuity. And if you have high resistance, the HSI can even glow in many instances, but not glow good enough to fire up the burners. (And this is not just theroy - actual experience)
 
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Old 11-12-07, 11:57 AM
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Ohms redeux

when i checked for ohms on the ignitor i got no tone and nothing but very small random appearing numbers on the meter. i will check it again when i get home from work.

the furnace was newly installed on 12/7/1998.
 
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Old 11-14-07, 12:50 AM
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Draft inducer

this other guy who had the same problem whose furnace worked fine once he replaced the ignitor? he sent the following email after my inquiry about the inducer...

...the blower, black fan for exhaust, did come on before
i replaced the ignitor. is that the ventor? that is
the only thing that came on. then the red light and
nothing.

So it appears i have a problem with the inducer - can anyone tell me if there is a safety that is before the inducer that would prevent it from running?

Dave
 
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Old 11-14-07, 02:29 PM
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Dave

along the line you said you're only getting 15 volts to the inducer motor. Is that accurate? The inducer motor will not run with only 15 volts. That needs to be rectified before you can move on.
 
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Old 11-15-07, 03:02 PM
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Inducer - again

ok guys - here is what i have.

Inducer has a continuity of 17 ohms.

Voltage on the control board is about 15 volts. It surges to almost 60 volts for a very brief time and then settles quickly and steadily to about 15 volts.

This doesn't sound like the problem is the inducer. What would cause the control board to deliver some voltage but not all?

Dave
 
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