Question on payne 90 working intermitently

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Old 01-05-09, 08:34 AM
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Question on payne 90 working intermitently

OK, someone suggested I start a new thread. New to this forum stuff. I have a Pyne 90 plus furnace (160,000 btu) The burner comes on for a few minutes and quits, then restarts almost within a couple of minutes. I have an LED that blinks? 1 slow and 3 fast (13) I called a reputable furnace repair company. They sent a technician out who spent an hour looking at the furnace. He was not sure what exactly was wrong. He said that the 13 code means that either their is a blockage, like filters cloged (they are fine). or maybe the vacume switch is bad. (that round silvery thing) if not that maybe the pre ignition blower is bad. He suggested replacing the vacume swith at $180, if that does not work replace the pre ignition blower. (last time it was quoted at $850 so I replaced it myself for $350) I am going to the appliance repair store to get a new , round silver vacume switch. The furnace guy said it would be $180 for them to put one in. I figure it shouldn't cost more than $40 at the store. (Hope I am right)

With only two screws and a couple of pull off low voltage plugs anyone should be able to replace it. '

In my case i am also having some water drip from a black plastic, "combustion air intake box" by the burner chamber. do you know anything about that?

I would feel better about this whole thing if the furnace tech had been more specific. It did cost $118 to have the diagnostic.

Do you guys think I might be on the right track? replace the vacume switch then see what happens.
 
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Old 01-05-09, 09:18 AM
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I would suggest looking for what is causing the problem instead of throwing cash at parts. A competent tech would have given a definite diagnosis. It appears to me, especially with water dripping from the intake, that there is a venting issue. Possibly recirculating flue gasses and frosting the intake or the intake is covered with snow.
 
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Old 01-05-09, 09:51 AM
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Well, the 1-3 error code identifies a "Limit or flame roll-out switch lockout" according to the list of error codes I have in front of me.

A plugged filter, failed blower motor, return air grill covered up or excessive number of warm air vents closed will all cause that kind of error code. Also, a Plus 90 furnace has a secondary heat exchanger just above the fan motor that looks sort of like a car radiator and which can get plugged up and cause this kind of problem, especially if there is a history of the furnace not having a filter installed in it. A failed pressure switch will not.

Not if the furnace is wired up the way it's supposed to be, anyway.

A pressure switch failing to close would cause a 2-3 error code were it stuck closed, or 3-1 error code if the pressure switch failed to open (Switch did not close or re-opened. Have you observed the error code flashing yourself? Did you observe the 1-3 error code yourself?

If you have an AC multimeter, I'd suggest you check the limit switch yourself to verify that it is opening after the burner has been on a few minutes. You should be able to see 24 VAC at the limit switch while the burner is on on both side of the limit switch. When the burner shuts off, 24 VAC would be present only on one side of the pressure switch.

Testing the limit switch as described above is the recommended method.

Another alternative for the ill equipped DIYer would be to wait until the furnace turn of and then pull the wire off one side of the limit switch. The main burner should shut off and the 1-3 error code should start flashing.

It might also be worth while to test the pressure switch for operating as well since the repairman has suggested this may be bad and you are considering replacing it. The pressure switch has three connections to a single pole double throw switch. One should be labeled as C or common, one NC for normally closed and the other NO for normally opened.

With the AC voltmeter, the C connection should have 24 VAC whenever the furnace is operating. The NC connection should have 24 VAC when the furnace is operating but the inducer fan motor hasn't come up to speed --- you should be able to observe the voltage present when the thermostat calls for heat, and see the voltage go away after the inducer motor comes up to speed.

The NO connection should have no voltage until the inducer motor comes up to speed, at which point voltage would switch on and stay on until the thermostat shuts off the burner.

Alternatively for the ill equipped DIYer, wait until the burner turns on and then disconnect wire to NO on the pressure switch. The burner should shut off and the 3-1 error code should be displayed. If that happens the furnace is properly wired up and the pressure switch is not the problem.

The 1-3 error code also could be signaling that flame rollout switches opened, so this circuit should be checked to see whether the limit switch on the front of the furnace opened or whether there are flame rollout switches in the circuit that may have opened.

Let me know what you find.
 
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Old 01-05-09, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jwolfenden View Post
I called a reputable furnace repair company. They sent a technician ..... He was not sure what exactly was wrong.
I think that would almost be an oxymoron.

He suggested replacing the vacume swit(c)h at $180, if that does not work replace the pre ignition blower.
II think I should have gotten into the furnace repair business, the more I read such posts as this, which seem to be popping up with greater regularity.
 
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Old 01-07-09, 07:33 PM
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I tried some of those and got a 31

I tried disconnecting the pressure switch NO wire, the burner stopped and I got a 31 on the LED. So I guess I should not install the new 79 dollar switch. Thanks for that information.

Now I have to figure out where those flame roll out swithes are??? Where are those switches?

I live in northern California, so no snow to block the flue. I am able to remove the exterior piece, I don't see a blockage. But of course I guess something could have crawled into the pipe and gotten beyond the first bend.

I was looking at my drain hoses. The furnace is on its side blowing to the left. There is a caped off drain hose near the top of the unit, I pulled it off and was surprised to have some water drain out. This tells me that there is water somewhere in the system.

The blower works fine, luckily the house is staying warm as I have set my thermastats to manual. The furnace can maintain the home temperature, but if I let it cool down at night it takes all day to get the home warm again.

I thought that the furnace guy should have used meters, etc and been able to ID the problem. The idea of just starting to replace parts does seem kind of iffy. ( and expensive)
 
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Old 01-07-09, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post

II think I should have gotten into the furnace repair business, the more I read such posts as this, which seem to be popping up with greater regularity.

Pretty pathetic, isn't it? How many parts do you think he would have replaced before getting around to the flame rollout switches?


On the other hand, I have had moments when I thought I could improve on certain furnace designs I encountered!
 
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Old 01-07-09, 08:59 PM
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All right Jwolf----

We seem to be barking up the right tree, or at least in the right forest.

As I read the error code again, it says that the 1-3 error code could be the limit switch OR flame rollout switches.


If the flame rollout switches were open, the furnace burners wouldn't turn on. So I'm guessing this test circuit is wired to the main furnace limit switch, which will reset itself when the furnace cools off if it overheats and opens --- and then on to the flame rollout switches, which shouldn't be the problem.

The limit switch is above the burners in about the middle of the cabinet when you have the cover off. Usually the Payne limit switches have a brown plastic base flush with the furnace and two 1/4 inch male spade fitting that the wires attach to.

To verify that this switch is the problem, turn the furnace way up which will cause the furnace to stay on. When the furnace is operating normally, you will find 24 VAC on both cspade connectors. When the furnace shuts off, you will have 24VAC on only one spade clip.

The limit switch opens because the furnace is overheating, usually caused by a plugged filter, a cold air return grill covered up or too many warm air vents covered up or closed.

Sheesh. This is a good example of how a circuit board error code makes a complex job out of what should be an easy thing to diagnose.

If I were there I'm sure I would have checked on the limit switch right away. It's a VERY common furnace repair symptom, and I doubt I would have been distracted by the blinkin light.


Let us know what you find.
 
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Old 01-07-09, 09:10 PM
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Another way to verify that the 1-3 error code includes that limit switch is to find the limit switch and turn the furnace on so that it begins the burners light. The pull one wire off the limit switch, which should turn the furnace on and start the 1-3 error code blinking.

That's if you don't have a multimeter.
 
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Old 01-10-10, 12:52 AM
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your Payne 90 problems solved

Look no further, I went through this song and dance for along time. I don't want to draw this out, so I will just cut to the chase. Y O U R P - T R A P I S P L U G G E D ! ! !

Whatever the tech. name is for it, ya got me (it's not my field) the lower half you will see a round plastic jig w/ two hoses on top and a pipe on the back for your drain. Remove the hoses and BLOW IT OUT!!! (carefully, I broke one of the necks and had to glue it back together) put it back together and you should be golden

P.S. I would wear some glasses, or at least have a towel close-by

Good Luck
I hope that's it
Ryan
 
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