Need help diagnosing Tempstar furnace


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Old 01-09-09, 03:14 PM
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Need help diagnosing Tempstar furnace

Tempstar model number NUGS050AF01 (weird, but prob iCP)
SN: L913825416

House is walkout ramber.
Split system furnace in basement/ac outside

hot surface ignition control board White Rodgers 50E47=843
No rust on/in furnace. (It actually looks new)

It has a fan timer on it with setting controls that is seperate from the limit switch.

Once in a while the limit switch has needed replacing.
The first time it was like 30 below. He put in the wrong part.
Another guy came out and replaced that and the thermostat
yada yada yada Different reasons.

This went out two nights ago when it got real cold.

I was told that the person who lives down there had the vents covered. (she likes it cold) She had the return air screen I had installed when I first moved in with boxes too and etc. All vents are cleared and I took out the filter. Add to that, a new filter that was not what I normally used. She put it in the wrong way.

I put in another limit switch. But now I can't get the ingition surface to ignite.

My hot ignition control when I turn on the furnace goes to the yellow for 2 secs, the solid green and I hear clicks, then it locks out.

Can someone help troubleshoot this? I have jumper handy and I tried to do this, but I had a heck of a day.

When I turn on the furnace, I have the t stat on above the actual temp in house. The inducer goes on like it should first, the blower will only go on (of course) if I have that on ON instead of Auto. Well, that would be because it does not ignite.

I have already tested the t stat by jumping them. That does not seem to be an issue.

So, any kind takers on this one? I could use a beer, but can't.
 

Last edited by jumpstart; 01-09-09 at 03:40 PM. Reason: need info
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Old 01-09-09, 05:18 PM
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>


What should happen is this:

The thermostat calls for heat.

The inducer motor fan starts up.

The hot surface ignitor glows white hot

The main burner gas turns on and lights off the HSI.

The blower fan turns on.


Your description isn't clear, but it sounds like the HSI gets hot and you can hear the gas valve click to turn the gas on, but it doesn't light.


What is the yellow and green you mention? I have no idea what that refers to.

Assuming my description is describing what is happening, check to be sure the furnace gas valve is turned to "on," and that the manual gas shutoff valve to the furnace is on (in line with the pipe.

Is this natural gas or propane? You need to be sure your gas supply is turned on and that you have a supply of gas.

Do you have other gas appliances --- are they working?

Can you hear or smell gas coming out of the burners after the relay clicks?
 
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Old 01-09-09, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jumpstart
I put in another limit switch. But now I can't get the ingition surface to ignite.

My hot ignition control when I turn on the furnace goes to the yellow for 2 secs, the solid green and I hear clicks, then it locks out.

When I turn on the furnace, I have the t stat on above the actual temp in house. The inducer goes on like it should first, the blower will only go on (of course) if I have that on ON instead of Auto. Well, that would be because it does not ignite.
You say nothing about the HSI glowing. If no glow,the click you hear may be coming from ignitoin module sending pulse to send current to HSI. If you do not see it glow, test HSI leads when disconnected, for ohms (preferably under 100, usually about 28 on up) and to see if current is in the 2 wires that come from ignition board or module, to the HSI. If you have no jack to separate for the HSI, then maybe they are plugged directly onto board or module, and you can test there.

IF the HSI DOES glow, still do the ohms test on it in case it is weak.
 

Last edited by ecman51; 01-09-09 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 01-09-09, 06:03 PM
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Does this furnace use a hot surface ignitor or a pilot that is lit by an electronic spark? Does the pilot light if so equipped?
 
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Old 01-09-09, 07:06 PM
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Skip--- that control module is for a HSI.
 
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Old 01-10-09, 01:32 PM
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Okay Now Tested and Replaced

I have tested the HSI. Power at the control board.
I took a part the burner box, (quite cramped) and was able remove the slanted metal to get a better look at the HSI.
(Hot Surface Igniter) and the Sensor.

There was a small crack upon very close look. So, I went and bought a new one and cleaned my sensor too.
(I had a back up limit switch, so I replaced that as well)

Now, when I was doing this, I almost removed both burners.
(there are two each that run inside of exchangers).
I did move them a little, but they are secure now.

I reconnected everything, it is starts just like it is supposed to.

The inducer goes on, first one click at the board, then I can see the ignitor light up and the burners light. Then, after a bit, the blower comes on and there is heat.

I am a little worried now. I see blue flames with some orange.
(not yellow). The flames have a clear connect at the burner and is seems to be evenly lit in pattern at burners, but there is some orange mixed in with the blue as look up the flames. If I remember right, (and I am trying) This should not be the case.

Any help with this? I am also sorry I was not clear at first.
I am trying to remember everything I am supposed tell you, but it's been a little hairy.

I have turned off the furnace for now. I am thinking it might some type of dust, but I wanted another opinion.
 

Last edited by jumpstart; 01-10-09 at 01:39 PM. Reason: edit
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Old 01-10-09, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51`
You say nothing about the HSI glowing. If no glow,the click you hear may be coming from ignitoin module sending pulse to send current to HSI. If you do not see it glow, test HSI leads when disconnected, for ohms (preferably under 100, usually about 28 on up) and to see if current is in the 2 wires that come from ignition board or module, to the HSI. If you have no jack to separate for the HSI, then maybe they are plugged directly onto board or module, and you can test there.

IF the HSI DOES glow, still do the ohms test on it in case it is weak.
I did follow as you suggested. (no glow at all) There was power at the control board where the HSI is connected. I went and dove myself into the burner area. Can't they make it a little more maintenance friendly. I swear, even with my small hands, it was a challanged. I did not want to break my ignitor!
 
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Old 01-10-09, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SeattlePioneer
>


What should happen is this:

The thermostat calls for heat.

The inducer motor fan starts up.

The hot surface ignitor glows white hot

The main burner gas turns on and lights off the HSI.

The blower fan turns on.


Your description isn't clear, but it sounds like the HSI gets hot and you can hear the gas valve click to turn the gas on, but it doesn't light. (did not get hot - nothing)


What is the yellow and green you mention? I have no idea what that refers to. (Led light on the control box that the wires are hooked to (MV HSI etc)

Assuming my description is describing what is happening, check to be sure the furnace gas valve is turned to "on," and that the manual gas shutoff valve to the furnace is on (in line with the pipe. (Yep, first thing I did, just in case)

Is this natural gas or propane? You need to be sure your gas supply is turned on and that you have a supply of gas.

Do you have other gas appliances --- are they working?
(Another thing I checked right away, and had dryer and hot water heater going - both worked)
Can you hear or smell gas coming out of the burners after the relay clicks?
No, I did not smell gas. Thing is - I thought I should have when I heard the clicks, but nothing. I have a good smeller too. But, then I thought maybe it wasn't going to get there if something else was telling it there was something wrong. (another safty device?).

I have in operating now, but I am still concerned. See my post below (or latest one on the flames I see)

And, again - I apologize for not being clearer. It's all in my head, but it doesn't all get out like I plan.
 
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Old 01-10-09, 01:50 PM
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If you have no glow and current at HSI connections, it sounds like your ignitor is shot anyway, if you indeed tested the right terminals on the board and didn't inadvertantly test LINE terminal. If you tested IGN terminal that has wire to HSI and the neutral to it and you had current there, yet no glow, likely HSI burned out with crack across it. VERY common problem. You can get HSI's for about $20-30.

Just saw your last post at 2:48 and you now say it is up and running now? Yet you said before there was no glow? ??? Is it because you are not able to see good enough where it glows?

Anyway - if you ever have to get and install new HSI, only handle them by the ceramic and not by the rough black brittle coil.
 
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Old 01-10-09, 01:52 PM
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Orange flame are typically caused by dust being entraned in the air being sucked into the burners --- not surprising when you were working on them and moving them about.

If you knock on the burners with a wrench while the burners are lit you can usually get a nice display of orange flames.


So--- not likely to be a problem.


Heh, heh! Ecman works designing furnaces --- I'm sure he can explain why they are so user friendly to repair!
 
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Old 01-10-09, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51`
If you have no glow and current at HSI connections, it sounds like your ignitor is shot anyway, if you indeed tested the right terminals on the board and didn't inadvertantly test LINE terminal. If you tested IGN terminal that has wire to HSI and the neutral to it and you had current there, yet no glow, likely HSI burned out with crack across it. VERY common problem. You can get HSI's for about $20-30.

Just saw your last post at 2:48 and you now say it is up and running now? Yet you said before there was no glow? ??? Is it because you are not able to see good enough where it glows?

Anyway - if you ever have to get and install new HSI, only handle them by the ceramic and not by the rough black brittle coil.
Could not see a darn thing really good to tell you the truth. I know I could not see any light. I have replaced it, and carefully so. It goes. Beer 4U2
 
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Old 01-10-09, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SeattlePioneer
Heh, heh! Ecman works designing furnaces --- I'm sure he can explain why they are so user friendly to repair!
It isn't ME who said I design furnaces. Someone else the other day said they does that. And I actually thought that was neat, as I have never known anyone in my life that can explain to me where everything in this world comes from. Who's designing everything? I watch that tv show called "How It's Made", and I talk at the tv set saying, "Oh come on! Who could have come up with that? How could they even lay that out on paper?. If you take all the straight A students and have them all commit to this line of work, there would not be enough people!" In fact, last night I watched that show. Pretty nifty how they make 55 gallon drums, glass blocks, police whistles, and ....

I know doctors, lawyers, store clerks, factory workers, other workers, etc., but never have met the people who actually design the stuff. It is like it just appears here on Earth as manna from heaven. There are like more products, that require sophisticated engineering, than there are people alive! Even the machine systems needed to make the machines are ridiculously clever. Go figure!
 
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Old 01-10-09, 02:12 PM
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Sorry Ecaman --- I accept your plea of not guilty!


I'm MOSTLY just teasing though --- most furnaces are marvels of design.


[I f that doesn't suck the guilty party in, nothing will!]
 
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Old 01-10-09, 02:16 PM
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Red face

If I had the money, I would have purchased two HSI's. One for back up. I have been here about four years. I have to tell you that this furnace still has so many shiny parts on it, it makes me wonder if the people here replace a bunch before I bought the house. I normally see the worst furnaces.

But, saying that...I think it's time for another clean job inside by the heat exchangers. I have the worst luck here with HVAC contractors. I don't mind paying for it (when the money is there) but when I do, I would like to have someone who will actually know how to really check and do the right kind of maitenance. I know how to take things apart and fix them, I do that in other area's for a living. But, I am kind wondering if I should learn this trade for a living. (eh right)

I am very good at many things, but stick to what I know, then call out whom I know for my clients. HVAC has been a problem.
You should see some of the work I have seen - and that's just of what I do know enough about.

All of you have been really good. Now, if the person who borrowed my digital multimeter would just call me back and return it? LOL
 
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Old 01-11-09, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jumpstart
If I had the money, I would have purchased two HSI's. One for back up.
They often cost $20-30.

Now, if the person who borrowed my digital multimeter would just call me back and return it? LOL
No big deal. Just get one at Harbor Freight on sale for $2.99. They have sales on them often. I have collections of them, and hand them out to people at Christmas time.
 
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Old 03-15-09, 02:09 PM
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Smile help

i have one of these white rodgers 50e47-843 and the ignigter wont light, the ohm reading is about 64 and i just replaced it about 3 months ago , the lead light is blinking yellow and it says improper polarity. i cant figure it out. the unit is a snyder general model gua08012ain
 
 

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