Trouble with Beckett

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Old 07-15-09, 06:28 AM
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Trouble with Beckett

Hi all,
Sorry if this has been addressed before, but here goes....

Have a Beckett AFG that is having trouble firing. Primary is a Honeywell R7184U19004.

When the safety switch on the primary is reset, the power venter comes on for 5-7 seconds. As that is running, the pitch of the burner lowers and sounds as if it is attempting to light. However, this only goes on for about 2 seconds before the safety is tripped. The power venter continues for about 30 seconds and shuts down. Hit the reset button again and the venter comes on, followed almost immediately by the burner firing and staying lit. When the boiler sits idle for a few hours and a new call for heat goes out, the burner attempts to light, power venter for 7 seconds followed by 1-2 seconds of attempted ignition, then trips the safety. If we use hot water and the boiler cycles, the burner seems to stay lit. It's when it sits idle that it won't fire.

I was ready to buy a new ignitor, but saw read another thread here and thought it could be the motor too. Fuel is present and line bled, ceramics are fairly clean, nozzle and filter are fairly new, and contacts have been lightly
Dremeled with a wire wheel.

First question is, from what I've read in similar threads, what does the ignitor arc sound like as compared to the motor? I thought what I was hearing was the motor and fuel pump, but not so sure now. I tried tapping the motor during the start-up (or attempted start-up) to no avail. I had it pegged as the ignitor, but now I'm not so sure.

Second question, should it be the ignitor: current ignitor is a Beckett 20kV, part # 746004. Is that compatible/been replaced with a 20kV Beckett part #746001? I have not been able to find the 746004.

Thanks,
Harry
 
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Old 07-22-09, 05:01 PM
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Beckett Problem

Sorry for the slow reply. I've been offline for a couple of weeks.

There are many possibilities but I suspect something isn't wired properly. Normally the venter will start, followed soon after by the burner motor. The burner motor generally runs for about 15 seconds then the fuel solenoid opens & ignition takes place. The timing on your system sounds too fast. If you will supply the make & model of the boiler & venter, I can probably find a wiring diagram to help me help you.

Beckett did have a problem with some fuel solenoids operating intermittently.
 
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Old 08-04-09, 02:16 PM
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update

Grady,
This problem suddenly appeared, so I kinda discounted the bad wiring; no one has done any work to the unit recently.
After replacing the motor, ignitor, and primary control with units that I knew worked, the problem persisted. What it does now when I hit the reset is spark and the blower comes on. No ignition. After the blower shuts down, another hit of the reset button brings ignition.
I looked into the solenoid and found another one of your answers to a problem that sounded similar. I decided to get the solenoid on my way home (shop didn't sell the solenoid alone, so I decided to troubleshoot more)and also check for air leaks, though I thought that if there was an air leak, there should also be an oil leak. No signs of that.
So, what I did was to check for fuel supply on the initial startup. I disconnected the fuel line from the burner housing, connected a hose, and hit the reset button. Nothing! After it shut down, I hit it again and presto, pink fuel, no foam.
The new pumps have the solenoid integral to the pump, with a 3-probg bayonet electrical connection.. In addition, my pump does not have the solenoid integral; it appears to be connected to the burner housing, with a different electrical connection.
I have attached a picture; is the solenoid the cylindrical part that the fuel lines are connected to? Mine has the following markings: Mod E7ITALY COMBU 120V/60 14VA 300PSI.



Now, do I look for a replacement, or replace the pump with the integral one? If so, the electrical connection will differ; is that easily rectifiable?
Thanks,
Harry
 
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Old 08-04-09, 05:22 PM
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Oil Solenoid

This valve looks different but serves the same purpose:
Product

I found one here: Patriot Supply -

A number of guys on the boards have ordered from this company and have been happy with the service.

Before ordering I suggest you verify the solenoid is getting 120volts. The problem could be the control, not likely but possible.
 
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Old 08-05-09, 04:32 AM
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This has me thinking now...on a call for heat, it apparently delivers no fuel and goes into safety mode. If I'm there when it does this and hit the reset button, it fires up.
If I'm not there, it stays in safety mode. When I hit the reset button, nothing. Only when I hit it again right away does it deliver fuel and light.
Does that sound like more of a control problem or the valve?
H
 
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Old 08-05-09, 02:40 PM
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Valve or control

If you have a voltmeter & know how to use it, here's how to check to see if the valve is getting power:

There should be two wires from the control to the valve (violet & white). You need to check for 120 volts between those two wires. If you get 120 & the burner locks out, the problem is in the valve. If you don't get 120, the problem would seem to be with the control.
 
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Old 08-07-09, 09:07 AM
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Arrrgh. Checked the voltage; hooked up wires at the wire nuts to the valve and hit the reset switch. 120 volts and no ignition.
Changed the valve and same thing; on lock-out, flashing light, i hit the reset button and the blower comes on and I can hear a spark. No ignition. Hit the reset again and ignition.



Could it be the cad cell? Cad cell attachment?
 
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Old 08-07-09, 06:15 PM
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Cad Cell

If you got ignition & it still locked out, then the cad cell might be the problem. Sounds like the cad cell & control are fine.

Pardon me if I seem to ramble but as I think of things I better type them, lest I forget.

Seems darned strange that you'd have 2 bad valves. Here's another check: Instead of checking violet to white; check for 120 from violet to ground. Also check from white to ground. Remote chance, but a chance none the less, there is something screwy with the voltage, such as reversed polarity.

You can also check resitance thru each valve. I would suspect the windings on each valve to read close to the same resitance. When making this check, tug on & wiggle the valve wires while watching your meter. If you get variations in the readings while manipulating the wires, you have bad valves. Don't worry about changes of a couple of ohms, just big variations.
 
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Old 08-14-09, 10:43 AM
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I will check that tonight, but I was thinking...with ac voltage, does the polarity matter?
In addition, the pump works on reset, so there's correct voltage at some point.
Now what is happening is a call for heat leads to no flame and the primary goes into safety, flashing light.
I hit the reset and the blower comes on, followed by what certainly sounds like a spark. I checked with the fuel line disconnected and no fuel comes out. After it shuts down, I hit the reset again and fuel comes out. If I reconnect the fuel line, I get a "throatier" sound (the motor?) along with the spark sound and I get flame. When the coil temp goes low enough to call for heat, it goes back to the same sequence.

The motor drives the fuel pump, correct? It seems that on initial call for heat, the motor is not coming on (the lack of the lower-pitched sound) and hence, no fuel, confirmed by disconnecting the fuel line. Am I way off base here?

update: what now happens is that I get no flame, primary goes into safety and gives me two chances to reset. After both, I get no flame and the primary goes into lock-out, meaning I have to hold the reset button for 30 seconds. After the 30, I get the blower, the spark, then a throaty sound and flame.

I'm thinking of switching to solar heat.
 
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Old 08-14-09, 06:11 PM
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Solar, LOL

These blasted things can drive you nuts. With the new electronic controls, polarity is important as is a good ground.

Yes, the motor does drive the pump, via a plastic coupling. Once in a while we'll find a coupling to be slipping. If you remove either the motor or the pump, you can pull the coupling off the remaining component (motor or pump) & inspect it. On the motor end, there is a grey end with a hole in it for the motor shaft. One side of the hole is flat to fit on the flat of the motor shaft. The pump end has a similar green cap with a smaller hole but made the same. Check those flats. If they appear to be rounded out, replace the coupling.

When the burner first comes on, before it actually fires (if it fires) do you hear anything? The motor itself is fairly noisy. The deeper, more throaty sound you hear is the flame burning. As soon as the flame lights you should get a steady green light.
 
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Old 08-14-09, 06:48 PM
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I hear the spark at the igniter and the blower, but it sounds as if the motor is silent. Tonight, I did a "feel" test. Hit the reset, blower and spark were present. Motor was quiet and I felt nothing. When I hit the reset, still nothing. After getting out of lockout, the blower came on, the spark was there, and the heavier noise was present, along with a definitive vibration in the motor, indicating that it was turning. At that time, I got flame.
So, it sounds as if the motor does not come during the first and second reset. It only comes on after getting out of lockout.
I would think that it is a control problem then, correct? I will get the schematic out for the primary tomorrow. When I changed it, I connected the same color wires to each other. Maybe they changed colors? Also, this came on kinda suddenly. One day it worked, next day I'm a reset fanatic.
Also, the coupling seemd ok when I switched out the motor. Bo was that a pain getting the two flats to line up with no rrom to work! If the coupling was bad, I'd think I'd get no flame at all but I do get it, on the third time. Guess that's the charm!
 
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Old 08-16-09, 03:00 PM
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I'm confused

You say the blower is running but the motor is not.
Are you talking about the burner motor or some other motor?
Same question regarding the "blower".

If the fan inside the burner is running, it is driven by the burner motor just like the fuel pump.
 
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Old 08-16-09, 03:26 PM
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Sorry for the confusion. By blower, I mean the vent blower. We have a horizontal stack, the blower is the stack vent.
When I hit reset, the I can hear the stack blower and spark. I am positive the burner motor, that drives the internal blower and fuel pump, is not running. After coming out of lockout, I can both hear it and feel it running. That's when I get flame.
 
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Old 08-17-09, 06:10 AM
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New update

Ok, after thinking about this last night in bed, I went down to check a few more things.
The primary output that should go to the burner motor (orange) goes to the power venter (Tjernlund). Two wires go to the venter, a black and a white. The primary's orange is connected to the white. The return, black, is connected to the burner motor orange wire. In the box at the venter, the white goes to a terminal block labeled Adjustable Relay Control, repl part 950-1067. The black is connected to a comm.
Ok, so I hit the reset and checked voltage at the orange from the primary, also leading into the venter. 120v. Of course, no flame. I then hit reset again and checked voltage at the burner motor orange, which is also from the venter. Nothing. So, it appears that there is no voltage to the motor on call for heat. During both times, the spark is there and venter is operating.
However, when I come out of lockout (3rd reset), there is voltage, everything runs and I get flame. Why would that be? Is the relay bypassed?
 

Last edited by xmasbaby63; 08-17-09 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 08-17-09, 11:11 AM
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Last update

It was the direct vent tube. Apparently it had become clogged.
It's the simple things.

Now, Beer 4U2
 
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Old 08-17-09, 03:06 PM
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Draft proving switch

In your first post you said you had a power venter but I forgot that fact when you said the fuel solenoid wasn't opening. Had I continued to focus on the venter we would have solved this problem long ago. I apologize for that.
In any case, I commend you on finding the plugged tube.

That little tube is part of the draft proving circuit. The venter pulls a slight vacuum thru that tube & the vacuum closes a switch. It is a safety device in case the venter motor fails or the vent gets blocked it won't allow the burner to fire. It seems after 3 tries it was pulling enough vacuum to close the switch.
 
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