Payne central heating is giving me a pain....


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Old 12-18-09, 09:08 PM
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Payne central heating is giving me a pain....

Hi!
I'm having a problem with my central heating system.
It is a Payne system.
Product: 396JAW060095ABFA
Model: 396JAW060095
Series: B

The problem I'm having is that when the thermostat is turned on, the pilot ignites pefectly and stays on but the main burners do not ignite. Initially out of frustration i banged on the outside with my hand and you could hear a clicking so I opened the upper compartment with the blower and the circuit board cleaned and fixed a few conectors so now i have no clicking sounds on beating the machine....

I've cleaned out the pilot which is a 3 wire pilot...here is what it sorta looks light http://www.myhvacparts.com/Catalogue...%20burner2.jpg
that is without the igniter piece.
I took out the burners cleaned and vacumed them. I used a pin to clear out the opening for the main burners. I've checked the connections.... After that I put it all back together and closed it up and tried again. It started... I was satisfied....so i tried to turn it off and restart it.... now its cold and it wont start!!! Help Please....

Should i remove the 3 wire pilot and clean it out with WD 40? I didn't clean the part with the little metal strip next to the pilot flame....
The pilot still ignites but some how i think maybe the connection from that metal strip to the 3 wires isnt connecting....or maybe something completely different...

Another thing i noticed was that the little safety switches on the top of the machine the button was stuck down... i cant push it... it just stays down...
the other switch that connects with the transistor on the lower compartment is just the opposite it just hangs down so if you were to push it, it just limply falls back...
I'm not sure if that is the issue..
Please help

Oh and I almost forgot to say that when you adjust the termostat to fan on it works but not the main burners.....
 

Last edited by helpneeded; 12-18-09 at 09:13 PM. Reason: addition
  #2  
Old 12-18-09, 09:42 PM
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The safety switches only pop open if they fail, so don't worry about that.


Did you disassemble the pilot burner to get at the pilot orifice and clean that? You need to remove the brass ferrule at the bottom of the pilot switch to do that.

Don't use any lubricant, that will just gunk things up.

Does the furnace fan that circulates air around the house start running after the pilot lights?

Do you have 24 VAC at the Gas1 terminal on the circuit board when the pilot is lit for a couple of minutes or more?

If you can post a picture of the circuit diagram, that would be helpful, since I'm not finding much for your furnace doing a search.
 
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Old 12-18-09, 09:56 PM
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Thanks Seattlepioneer!

I did disassemble the pilot took out the little cone shaped thing from the bottom cleaned the hole in it.

The fan doesn't turn on unless the main burners light which happened that one time and it also works if i remove the wires from the transistor board or even if i just turn on the fan from the thermostat.

I was waiting for the 24 VAC at the gas1 terminal but it never worked..

I will try and get a photo..

Thanks for the rapid reply
 
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Old 12-18-09, 10:35 PM
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Here is my furnace photos... some how i couldn't make them come on this site.....another problem another day....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45722125@N03/
 
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Old 12-18-09, 10:44 PM
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Thanks Seattlepioneer!

I did disassemble the pilot took out the little cone shaped thing from the bottom cleaned the hole in it.

The fan doesn't turn on unless the main burners light which happened that one time and it also works if i remove the wires from the transistor board or even if i just turn on the fan from the thermostat.

I was waiting for the 24 VAC at the gas1 terminal but it never worked..

Here is my furnace photos... some how i couldn't make them come on this site.....another problem another day....
Flickr: teddyrockspin1's Photostream

Thanks for the rapid reply
 
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Old 12-18-09, 10:49 PM
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I can't read the circuit diagram in the picture you posted.

It's probably similar to the one in this manual on page 5 and 6:

http://www.xpedio.carrier.com/idc/gr...t/58gs-1si.pdf
 
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Old 12-18-09, 10:58 PM
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Does the spark shut off or does it keep ticking away?


Since you are getting no 24 VAC at terminal one, there is no voltage to turn the main burner gas valve on. If a voltage were present, it would have suggested a burned out gas valve.

If you use a jumper wire from are to terminal 1, the main burner gas should turn on.

Do you have a good pilot flame? The flame should engulf much of the temperature sensitive switch on the left side of the pilot switch. If the flame is too small, the switch wont heat up enough to turn on the main burner gas.

You have natural gas? The pilot orifice should have been big enough to get the wire from a wire brush in it for cleaning. A propane orifice would have too small a hole for that.

Rarely you find the wrong orifice in a pilot burner.


Otherwise, if you have a good pilot flame properly positioned, you probably need a new pilot switch with the current one sticking and not changing position properly.
 
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Old 12-18-09, 11:16 PM
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The spark from the pilot works perfectly. It sparks then the blue green flame lights up within seconds of setting the thermostat.

Place the jumper from where to terminal 1?

I have natural gas supply.

Somehow im totally guessing but from the pilot flame the current is not passing to the main burner from the three wires...

I've cleaned the pilot but not the metal strip next to the pilot flame which from the bottom the three wires appear.... i wonder if that could be an issue?
 
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Old 12-18-09, 11:23 PM
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I took the photos of the circuit diagram...
Flickr: teddyrockspin1's Photostream
 
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Old 12-19-09, 01:27 AM
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Thanks for postinfg the circuit diagram. It's a little different than I was supposing, but doesn't change the basic issue.

And you are correct --- the problem appears to be that voltage is not passing through the pilot switch to turn on the main burner.

After the pilot lights, does the spark continue to operate indefinitely, or does it shut off?

It should shut off as the heat sensitive switch turns on the voltage to the main burner gas valve at terminal 3 on the gas valve.


You've already said you don't get 24 VAC at Gas1. And the fan isn't turning on, so the main burner solenoid isn't burned out, it's just not being energized.

When the pilot is lit, you can verify that another way by running a jumper wire from the R terminal on the circuit board to the #1 terminal on the gas valve, which will energize the main burner gas valve and should turn it on, and the fan will turn on a bit later.

You ignored my directions on the pilot burner flame. If you don't check that carefully you could be ignoring the cause of this problem.
 
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Old 12-19-09, 08:55 AM
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On the pilot burner you should have a green, yellow, and white wires. You should verify power going through those wires. you probably have a wore out pilot burner warp bar and need to replace the pilot burner. Don't bother with cleaning the contacts it in the switch.
 
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Old 12-19-09, 10:43 AM
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Replace the 3 wire pilot assembly. The bi-metal switch isn't switching properly.
 
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Old 12-19-09, 10:49 AM
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Skip, suppose there is a propane pilot orifice in the pilot burner, or that the pilot gas on the gas valve is turned down too much, or that the pilot orifice wasn't adequately cleaned?


These things could be causing the problem, too.
 
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Old 12-19-09, 11:12 AM
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I guess it would be worth looking into.
 
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Old 12-19-09, 11:22 AM
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Hey thanks everyone!


What seemed to solve the problem was i opened the box adjacent to the warp switch the site where the three wires enter into the switch and opened the metal clips and cleaned it out with MAF cleaner. It removed some of the grime and luckly it started. The main burners ignited within 20 seconds. I've tried it 4 times and it works...

All that work and it was a dumb little switch...ARgh!!

I really appreciate everyones efforts.


Thanks Again !!
 
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Old 12-21-09, 05:02 PM
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Viewing the picture of the pilot, It seems the pilot flame is somewhat yellow. Which means poor contact on the bi-metal strip.
 
 

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