Thanks, yes I can understand that it must be a lot of work to try different ones.
I just put in the B nozzle, the old one was really a mess and the electrodes
have no points left on them - I'll pick new ones up tomorrow.
It is running fine with the B nozzle but I'm going to pick up an ES also tomorrow
if they have one.
The old timer service man said that he wrote down what type of nozzle to use
but I never could find it thinking he wrote it on the outside on the paper tag.
I found it under the serial number tag inside and it says ES only, he told me
the brand mattered also so I was looking for Hago or whatever. I last took out
a SH ES so I know that is what he put in. Perhaps it is the brand more than
the pattern that matters. I'll see how this B does in really cold weather, it is
not too cold today.

 

It is great with the Hago B nozzel, much quieter with just a rushing sound. I think the problem is with other brand B type nozzels because it was really bad with the other. Sometimes I wonder if they actually do a full tune up replacing the electrodes and all.

I'm going to stock up on a few Hago B nozzels.

Thanks again for all the help!

 

Replacing the electrodes, unless they are really bad, is a complete waste of money. If you really want to preserve the life of your electrodes, install a primary control which drops out the ignition once flame is proven. You will save on electrodes & electricity since the transformer isn't being powered the whole time the flame is on.

It is sometimes surprising how much difference there can be in nozzle brands.

 

I was going to ask if they leave the ignition on the entire time but thought it
might be a dumb question. Do you have a favorite controller that I should
look into?
The entire pointed tips are gone, nothing there, just stubs.

The rumbling was so loud with the other nozzels that it had me really worried,
is this thing going to explode? - probably not, but that is how bad it was. Now
it is just a rushing sound - very nice.

 

The points of the electrodes being burned off is typical. Honeywell's R7284B would work well for you. It has a "valve on delay" which you wouldn't wire in unless you wanted to add a solenoid at the pump.

 

Thanks again Grady, excellent info!

 

We smelled something burning, first I thought electrical, then sort of like paint burning. I thought it was in the main part of the house. The furnace has been running perfectly. Went to look at the furnace and smoke was coming out of the grille covering the burner. I was afraid to open it while running so we shut it off and when I opened it there was not a lot and could not tell where it was coming from. It had been running constantly for probably 6 hours - it is very cold here. The transformer and motor were hot, but did not seem to be the source. There was some smoke coming out of the damper.

This was not a huge amount, the basement was not full of smoke and the burner was still running.

I'm letting it cool down now.

I did run the main blower motor which is new, and it is not the source of smoke.

Could a small animal have fallen down the chimney pipe?

Let it cool down, ran it again, had flame, seemed okay so I went upstairs. Smelled smoke after 15 min, went down and burner was running with small amount of smoke coming from damper. There did not seem to be an upward draft and it did not seem hot inside the pipe. I don't think the flame could be out since that would have locked out the burner. Is something most likely clogging the chimney pipe?

 

Service guy from our new oil company came out, looked at the flame and said it is way off center. Changed the nozzel to an A type saying that the chamber is round it takes an A type. He said this in no uncertain terms. He pointed out the round plate with a hole in the center and said there is soot in there, took a stick and broke it up saying it will burn up. He said that the burner should be removed in order to clean it out in there. Said that they would do it for a normal tune up on a service plan. He said the oil pump was noisey sounding and he changed the filter. He did a smoke test and left.

I did not know to clean in there, but did notice that removing the burner would provide better access to clean in there. Perhaps I'll do it in the Spring.

I mentioned that they will run a gas pipe up the street if we convert to gas and that is our plan. He said do it, and that he was on gas.

 

Run Forest, run. This guy hasn't a clue.

 

I wondered if that was the case, but it is not rumbling at all.

So, what do you think was going on with the smoking? I'm wondering
if that was part of the chamber lining that fell off that he poked out of
the way. There was very little draft when it was smoking and I'm wondering
if something was blocking the exit if that is possible.

I was going to ask if it was worth removing the burner and cleaning
in order to get better access for cleaning. Does this not make sense?

 

With out seeing it, I'm guessing the tech knocked off what is sometimes called a carbon donut. The causes are several but the most common is either a bad end cone on the burner or a cracked heat exchanger. If you pull the burner you can better check the end cone. Make sure you have a new burner gasket on hand.

You may have a tough time finding the end cone. That burner used an R4 instead of the 'normal' "F" type end cone. If you do happen to find one, the 'Z' dimension is 1" rather than the 1.125" used on the "F" end cones.

BTW: Nozzle angle, not pattern, is dictated by the chamber shape. A long narrow chamber will normally take a more narrow angle than does a round or square chamber. Just a little FYI.

 

I see. Is it possible that this carbon donut soaked up the fuel and just smoldered rather than igniting and would that cause the lack of draft?

The lack of draft really has me worried.

I'm worried that it might happen again when we are not home, get worse and fill the house with smoke.

Is there a writeup anywhere on what to do when removing the burner?

 

Removing the burner is pretty simple. Kill the power, disconnect the wires, disconnect the fuel, remove usually 3 nuts or bolts from the flange, & slide the burner out. If you want to make the burner lighter, you can remove the ignition transformer before unbolting the burner.

One bit of caution: Unbolt the top nut or bolt last & support the burner when removing the last bolt or nut. Then slide the burner straight out.

 

Thanks Grady, Okay so then I check/replace the end cone.

Is this another access spot for cleaning? Do I vacuum it out in there, then brush the heat exchanger above it or blow it out with compressed air to further clean the heat exchanger? I've only tried to clean it through the exhaust port. I see
very long brushes for sale at our heating supply shop.

I assume that I should inspect the combustion chamber liner and replace it if damaged?

Anything else to do in there?

 

You may or may not be able to find the correct end cone, probably not. If the end cone is bad, you may end up replacing the entire air tube assembly.

Cleaning must be done thru the exhaust. A smaller diameter hose taped to your vacuum cleaner hose will allow you to fish it around the heat exchanger. A flexible long handled brush may also come in handy.

When you have the burner out you can use a bright light & mirror with an adjustable angle head to get somewhat of a look up into the lower part of the heat exchanger.

Getting to the chamber liner to replace it is a whole different animal. Be VERY careful when inside the chamber. The liner is a ceramic fiber extremely easily damaged.

 

Sorry for all the questions.

How do I tell if the cone is bad? From what I can see it is metal with slots, if the slots are open and not bent and there are no cracks is it okay?

 

Pete,
That's all there is to it. If it's intact and no breaks it's good.

 

Thanks!
Any idea as to why the furnace smoked a bit and had hardly any draft?
There was some soot right in front of the cone when it was serviced for
this problem.

 

Pull the burner, inspect & clean the end cone. If you find any cracks or breaks, these could certainly cause the "soot", or as I called it earlier, a "carbon donut". While you have the burner out, lay a straight edge across the end cone & measure to the face of the nozzle. That measurement should be 1" not the standard 1.125. Yes, that 1/8" can make a big difference.

The "carbon donut" will cause smoke & virtually no draft since it has the end of the burner blocked.

 

Bad draft hapeens for two reasons.
A chimney problem or a plugged boiler.
Soot or carbon on the end cone is unburned oil. While your burner is running some oil is being sprayed on the cone
due to a wrong nozzle spray pattern of possibly the wrong nozzle assembly adjustment, possibly to far back in the tube.
You want the oil firing into the chamber with nothing hitting the air tube or cone.
All carbon is, is unburned oil, which you don't want.

While you have the burner out check your settings and alignment. See if it's to far back from the end cone.
Your spray angle may be to wide.

 

I think that the new Hago B nozzle that I put in looked at a glance to have a different distance from the top of the threads to the tip of the nozzle as compared to the Hago ES that came out, is that possible or is that distance standardized?

 

There the same where it counts.Maybe you had a partial plug in the nozzle or something.Good to keep a eye out on things for awhile after working on them.I look at a lot of chimney around me,don't want to see black smoke.

 

To be ready when I remove the burner, how do I correct that 1" vs. 1 1/8" measurement if it is not right? Is it adjustable or do I have to replace parts?

Thanks for all the help!

 

Just loosen the nut holding the nozzle assembly in place & the screw (usually 5/16" hex head), adjust the distance, lock things back down, & re-check.

 

Hi everyone, I want to say thank you again for all the help in the past.
We've had another very cold season and the heater has been running fine except for occasionally not firing where I have to hit the reset button, then it fires instantly. This has happened about 5 times this season, twice yesterday which seems to be a bit much. My guess was that the electrodes were burnt and having a wide gap but I'll explain how that is not correct.

I bought a Honeywell R7284 U version I think it is, sorry not sure why I forgot about the B that you suggested Grady. So now I figure is a good time to put new electrodes and the new controller in. Put the electrodes in today and a nozzle and noticed that while the tips were gone on the old ones they were properly gapped since it was done during the last tune up. I did see about half of a carbon donut on the inside of the end cone. Grady's theory is correct and I'm going to guess that this is probably the reason for unreliable firing. knocked it out and cleaned it up. I still have not removed the burner, I'll wait until it warms up in case anything goes wrong but I know that I have to do this now and I got the gasket for it.

I'm going to let it run for a few hours then do the controller swap. I notice that the instructions say that there is a delay that must be set within the first 100 starts, is this something I need to adjust or is the default good enough?

I called Beckett tech support to ask if there was anyway to get a manual for the AE burner. I told him I was trying to set up the electrodes and he said that the forward gap is 1/16", the height is 7/16" and the usual gap of 1/8". He also said that the donut was probably due to the nozzel being too far back, just as Grady suggested, and that they probably set it to 1 1/8 when it should be 1". He suggested putting an F3 burner head on it and then set it to the usual 1 1/8" set back. He sent me an AT manual and said to use the settings in there while I have the R4 end cone, and an AF manual that I'd use if I put the F3 burner head on it.

I'll see about buying an F3 burner head.

I'd appreciate help with setting up the Honeywell R7284 in case I need anything other than the defaults.

Thanks again!

 

Here is the installation manual. One should come with the control but sometimes not.
https://customer.honeywell.com/resou...69-2467EFS.pdf
Read it over & if you have any questions, I'll do my best to answer.

 

I read it over and I understand how to wire it up but I'm not sure if this burner needs any delay, not even sure what the delay is for or if it is permanently locked out after 100 starts or does a reset give you another chance?

 

The burner off delay is what is what is commonly called 'post purge' & far more frequently used on boilers. You will want to set it for off or zero which ever the control allows.

The valve on delay is only applicable if you have a solenoid valve on the pump (I don't think you do) so you would want it off or zero as well.

Once you set the valve on delay to off or zero, I hope the control is smart enough to turn on the ignition right away. If not, you want to set the 'ignition on during delay' to 'yes'.

 

Thanks, I'll install it now.

One more question please, if I replace the end cone with an F3 type can I just do the cone and keep the same blast tube? Does the blast tube length need to change? I think not, but I just want to confirm. The F3 cone is not expensive at all.

 

The air tube assembly should not have to be replaced. Just make sure you reset the 'Z' dimension to 1 1/8".

 

OK, yes makes sense and it really doesn't look too bad to remove the burner, still we're in the middle of some of the lowest temps since the 1960s so I think I'll wait a month until we are back in the 40s.
I'm going to buy the F3 end cone.

 

Almost done hooking up the new controller, split the motor and ignitor wires so they can hook up correctly to the controller.

The limit switch seems to go to another box and control the whole system through a relay, I think. There is no wire running down to the burner, can I just leave it disconnected to the controller? I take it the controller logs a temp limit condition and I'd lose that feature, don't really need it.

EDIT:
Looks like Limit (red) goes to L1 (black), just want to confirm, based on this:
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ga...ml#post1918773

EDIT: Here is how I set it up:
R7284U Installer setup :
Valve On Delay=0
Ignition Trial=15
Burner Off Delay=0
TT Configuration On=No
Spark In On Delay=Yes
Spark During Run=No
Allowed Resets=3
Appliance Type=Furnace
Show Diagnostics=Yes

It said Software version 19, and CAD cell around 1000 ohms.

It is running fine.

 

I assume that when I put the F3 cone end on and adjust the Z dimension to 1 1/8" it will need a tune up for the air mixture. I've saved a lot doing these repairs so it seems justified to pay $200 to $400 for meters to do the tuneup. Is there a standard high quality set that I can buy used within this price?
And is there a procedure online covering how to do the tuneup?

 

I forgot to tell you about the L1 & limit having to be tied together. Good Job.

Settings look good. I don't like the cad cell reading that high. I'd much rather see somewhere around 600.
Try tweaking the cad cell position by bending the mouting bracket just a bit.
If no improvement, close down the air just a little bit (no more than 1/2 a number space if there are numbers on the side of the burner).
If there are not numbers & you don't have a smoke pump, I don't suggest messing with the air.

The very first piece of tune up equipment you need is a smoke pump. As far as other combustion test equipment, such as draft gauge, CO[SUB]2[/SUB], & stack temp., if you get lucky, you might find a wet kit on ebay for that kind of money.

 

It probably fired 50 to 100 times from yesterday to this morning without a problem. Went to leave the house and it was calling but no heat. Controller last to errors were no ignition.

 

BECKETT 51771U IGNITER WITH BASE PLATE looks like it will fit, but I'm not sure.

Are these reliable?

We've had the electronic ones fail on our hot water heater, so I don't mind using
the older transformer type. The igniter on there now looks like the original one.

 

The no ignition error simply means the burner did not fire. It does not mean the ignition transformer is at fault but with yours being the original, it's probably a good idea to change it.
Like anything else, there are two sides to the electronic vs. iron core coin. The electronics do produce a hotter spark but are far more sensitive to incoming voltage fluctuations. Electronics do not like staying on for long periods but with your new control, that is out of the picture. I really don't have any heartache with either one. The iron cores are getting kind of hard to find but I did find some here: Patriot Supply - 2721-628G

 

The downstairs is up to 70 degrees and I turned it down to 65, the upstairs was at 65 and I turned it up to 70. I notice that the blower is running constantly but the burner is cycling on and off, it says standby when it is off.

Is this normal?

I guess it has more capacity than needed to heat one floor?

 

"Standby" is normal when the burner is off. Maybe "standing by" would be a better, or easier to understand term.

I presume you have two zones off of the one furnace. If so, downstairs zones are generally larger, both physically & from a heat loss standpoint. This being the case, you would have more duct capacity & the ability to move more heat downstairs. With only the upstairs calling for heat, there likely is not enough duct to move the heat away from the furnace as fast as the furnace can make heat, the furnace overheats & the high limit control shuts down the burner until the furnace cools somewhat.

 

That makes sense about the limit switch.

The Beckett tech sent me an AT manual and it looks exactly like this AE burner. It says that the electrodes should be 1/32" _back_ from the nozzle. I think I'm going to try this since he said that the electrodes would hit the cone if not back enough. He told me 1/16" forward.