Old Magic Chef Oil Fired L6A112C16-1 is a Rumbler
#81
02-22-15, 03:44 PM
Is the Bacharach True Spot Smoke Test Set 21-7006 a good one to buy?
Or if there is a good paper or thread on the subject please point me to it.
Thanks!
Or if there is a good paper or thread on the subject please point me to it.
Thanks!
#83
03-11-15, 08:12 AM
OK so I want to change the end cone to the F3 part, probably next month when it is even warmer out. I'll swap the part, adjust the Z dimensions and electrodes to the new spec.
Then is it good enough to tune it with the smoke pump?
I assume that the draft etc. should not change much.
Do most tune for zero CO, but I have no way to measure it so is the no smoke point usually zero CO?
It will be warmer out so do I tune for it to be on the lean side to have some excess air?
Thanks again everyone, it has been running fine since I readjusted the electrodes.
Finally warming up around here!
Then is it good enough to tune it with the smoke pump?
I assume that the draft etc. should not change much.
Do most tune for zero CO, but I have no way to measure it so is the no smoke point usually zero CO?
It will be warmer out so do I tune for it to be on the lean side to have some excess air?
Thanks again everyone, it has been running fine since I readjusted the electrodes.
Finally warming up around here!
#84
03-11-15, 04:53 PM
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Getting zero CO is nearly impossible. When you change the end cone & fire the burner, try to get a "trace" of smoke (less than #1 but still a little) then open the air a bit to get a zero smoke.
#85
10-23-15, 05:51 PM
I'm posting here because this thread will remind me that the belt on a blower with sleeve bearings should be left very loose. The belt came off a month or so ago, so I tightened it, the bearing was probably on the way out anyway, and the blower completely froze a few days ago with the sleeve bearing completely destroyed. I replaced the bearing about 5 years ago and I remembered it as a ball type when in reality it was a sleeve type. So this post will be a reminder to me not to over tighten the belt and that the sleeve needs to be oiled and replaced probably every 5 years or so.
I did the job again yesterday and this time I took off a panel that provides better access so that I could get a better view and see what was going on.
I'd really like to put in a ball bearing so that I don't have to do this again, the shaft is .75" and the outside of the sleeve bearing is 1.75" I couldn't find a ball bearing with these dimensions but with the rubber shock mount it is sligtly over 1.85" OD and I found a 47 mm OD bearing with a set screw on the shaft. I think that this will work, or is there a better standard replacement for the sleeve bearing?
NTN AS204 012 Ball Bearing Insert Set Screw 3 4" 75 " Bore AS204012 New | eBay
More specs:
https://www.motionindustries.com/pro...p?sku=00591197
Is there a better ball bearing to use, or is it a bad idea in general?
I did the job again yesterday and this time I took off a panel that provides better access so that I could get a better view and see what was going on.
I'd really like to put in a ball bearing so that I don't have to do this again, the shaft is .75" and the outside of the sleeve bearing is 1.75" I couldn't find a ball bearing with these dimensions but with the rubber shock mount it is sligtly over 1.85" OD and I found a 47 mm OD bearing with a set screw on the shaft. I think that this will work, or is there a better standard replacement for the sleeve bearing?
NTN AS204 012 Ball Bearing Insert Set Screw 3 4" 75 " Bore AS204012 New | eBay
More specs:
https://www.motionindustries.com/pro...p?sku=00591197
Is there a better ball bearing to use, or is it a bad idea in general?
Last edited by Pete2010; 10-23-15 at 07:20 PM.
#86
10-24-15, 07:14 AM
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It seems to me 5 years is a very short bearing life. I would say 20+ would be closer to normal. Unless the fan shaft is in perfect condition it should be replaced with the bearings.
#87
10-26-15, 08:11 AM
I keep forgetting and tightening the belt and I think that vastly increases the wear rate. I'm going to attach a note to the tension bolt to remind me that it is normal to run very loose. The shaft is far from perfect but I cleaned it up with emery cloth and it seems good enough, probably also contributes to the increased wear. I'll try to change it next time.
It runs really well now, sounds like a normal furnace, sometimes I have to listen very closely to tell if it is even running.
I've not replaced the nozzle yet this season but am very curious to see how the electrodes are since switching to the electronic controller.
I have the F3 end cone and just purchased a spot smoke tester, and I'll either do it soon or in the Spring. I think I'll try using the spot tester first and get used to how it works, any tips, should I give the furnace half an hour warm up?
Is there a good writeup online for the best procedure to use one?
I don't think this furnace has been tuned up with full gauges in more than 15 years so I hope that I don't do any worse than it has been.
It runs really well now, sounds like a normal furnace, sometimes I have to listen very closely to tell if it is even running.
I've not replaced the nozzle yet this season but am very curious to see how the electrodes are since switching to the electronic controller.
I have the F3 end cone and just purchased a spot smoke tester, and I'll either do it soon or in the Spring. I think I'll try using the spot tester first and get used to how it works, any tips, should I give the furnace half an hour warm up?
Is there a good writeup online for the best procedure to use one?
I don't think this furnace has been tuned up with full gauges in more than 15 years so I hope that I don't do any worse than it has been.
#88
10-26-15, 05:29 PM
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Allowing the furnace to run 5-10 minutes before testing is ample. On each stroke of the smoke pump, pause 2-3 seconds after pulling the handle. Test procedure calls for 10 full pump strokes.
#89
01-24-16, 08:17 PM
Hello again and thanks again for all the help.
I have not yet installed the new end cone.
Just tuned it up with new filter and nozzel, the electrodes were fine.
The burner has always been a bit noisy.
Today, it made a rattling almost hammering sound and I think either the motor
or pump is on it's way out. Does it cold, then calms down after it warms up.
Can I replace the motor, might it just be the oil pump?
I suppose that I can check the shaft for play and see if it needs new bearings.
Should I buy an entire new burner? I've seen them on ebay, some used but fairly new.
Edit: Sounds a lot like this burner and he changes the motor in under 10 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZfY6I-5bmY
Suggestions?
I have not yet installed the new end cone.
Just tuned it up with new filter and nozzel, the electrodes were fine.
The burner has always been a bit noisy.
Today, it made a rattling almost hammering sound and I think either the motor
or pump is on it's way out. Does it cold, then calms down after it warms up.
Can I replace the motor, might it just be the oil pump?
I suppose that I can check the shaft for play and see if it needs new bearings.
Should I buy an entire new burner? I've seen them on ebay, some used but fairly new.
Edit: Sounds a lot like this burner and he changes the motor in under 10 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZfY6I-5bmY
Suggestions?
Last edited by Pete2010; 01-24-16 at 10:00 PM.
#90
01-25-16, 05:33 AM
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Changing the motor is an easy job. While you have things apart, you should clean the fan as well. Nearly always, I replace the plastic coupling between the pump & motor. The few dollars spent on a coupling can save headaches down the road.
#91
01-25-16, 06:49 AM
I think that it was at night and very cold when it made the hammering sound and now it hasn't done it again. It seems to be load dependent, thinking I should probably clean/service the pump also? Any tips regarding the pump?
#92
01-25-16, 09:09 AM
The motor is a Marathon MOB-16-3600M 3450 RPM 1/6 HP
It seems to be in perfect shape, but my guess is that under full torque things
move a bit and the armature hits the, what is it called, stator? It has made a
light tapping noise for years and now a hammering. Still it looks perfectly
centered the bearing does not seem to have a lot of play.
There is a good amount of end play maybe 1/32".
I don't think it could be anything else.
Is the 21805U Beckett motor the correct replacement? It is 1/7 HP but seems
to be the modern replacement. This is an AE burner but tech support said that
the frame is the same so all modern parts will fit.
It seems to be in perfect shape, but my guess is that under full torque things
move a bit and the armature hits the, what is it called, stator? It has made a
light tapping noise for years and now a hammering. Still it looks perfectly
centered the bearing does not seem to have a lot of play.
There is a good amount of end play maybe 1/32".
I don't think it could be anything else.
Is the 21805U Beckett motor the correct replacement? It is 1/7 HP but seems
to be the modern replacement. This is an AE burner but tech support said that
the frame is the same so all modern parts will fit.
#93
01-25-16, 01:14 PM
Got the 21805U Beckett motor locally price was not bad at all.
I'm thinking I might as well do the pump, then almost all the moving parts will be new. It has a Webster pump, should I use the same part or ...?
Also, I assume that I'll need a pressure gauge to set it to the same or correct value. I should also be ready to tune it, I do have the smoke tester and should probably get comfortable using it before starting.
I'm thinking I might as well do the pump, then almost all the moving parts will be new. It has a Webster pump, should I use the same part or ...?
Also, I assume that I'll need a pressure gauge to set it to the same or correct value. I should also be ready to tune it, I do have the smoke tester and should probably get comfortable using it before starting.
#97
01-26-16, 03:27 PM
I see Beckett AFG burners that look fairly new, say less than 10 years old on ebay fairly cheap. I could wait for one local to avoid shipping. Would one of these increase the efficiency much if optimally tuned? Does the G provide a few percent more efficiency or more like 5 or 10% more?
If just the blower wheel is different I could upgrade that, but I'm not sure if the housing is slightly different to match the blower.
I'm sure I could do this for under $100, the new motor would fit, etc.
I think that mainly the frame and blower are different.
This includes a direct drive whole house blower which I need because ours is damaged from spun bushings that damaged the housing, don't know how much more life it has and would be nice to have direct drive:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beckett-oli-...EAAOSw0e9UwefU
If just the blower wheel is different I could upgrade that, but I'm not sure if the housing is slightly different to match the blower.
I'm sure I could do this for under $100, the new motor would fit, etc.
I think that mainly the frame and blower are different.
This includes a direct drive whole house blower which I need because ours is damaged from spun bushings that damaged the housing, don't know how much more life it has and would be nice to have direct drive:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beckett-oli-...EAAOSw0e9UwefU
Last edited by Pete2010; 01-26-16 at 05:47 PM.
#98
01-26-16, 04:31 PM
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The burner will not make a significant difference in efficiency. If you got an extra 2-3% I'd be surprised. The 'G' stands for guide. There is a plastic cone which funnels air into the blower on the AFG.
You lost me talking about a whole house blower.
You lost me talking about a whole house blower.
#99
01-26-16, 05:49 PM
Thanks I thought that the improvement might be that low.
Something went wrong with an edit on the part about the whole house blower. The frame is damaged on ours from when one of the bushings spun. I stumbled onto that one and it happens to be direct drive which I like. Have to get the dimensions to see if it will fit.
I've read about running the pressure higher say 120 or more PSI and using a smaller
nozzle can provide higher efficiency. Is there any where to read more about this and
how to do it properly?
Something went wrong with an edit on the part about the whole house blower. The frame is damaged on ours from when one of the bushings spun. I stumbled onto that one and it happens to be direct drive which I like. Have to get the dimensions to see if it will fit.
I've read about running the pressure higher say 120 or more PSI and using a smaller
nozzle can provide higher efficiency. Is there any where to read more about this and
how to do it properly?
#100
01-27-16, 08:10 AM
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The higher pressure will give only a slightly higher efficiency. With the equipment we use in the field, the difference probably isn't measurable. One thing which will increase overall energy efficiency is the use of a primary control which drops out the ignition transformer a few seconds after ignition.
#101
01-27-16, 01:50 PM
Thanks I put in the control that you suggested and it is working fine, no longer
burning up electrodes.
Do any of the solenoid valves help efficiency?
burning up electrodes.
Do any of the solenoid valves help efficiency?
#103
01-31-16, 05:22 PM
It got colder in the 20s the other night and the noises that I've been hearing for years (in very cold weather) are back, not the hammering - not sure what that was.
Is there something I can add to the oil tank to help thin it out a bit, something that is not snake oil?
Is there something I can add to the oil tank to help thin it out a bit, something that is not snake oil?
#105
02-01-16, 07:19 PM
I had a feeling that it would take a lot of dilution to do anything, so that makes sense. I have a 5 gal gas can that I could use.
Something new in the last 2 weeks, so it was doing it with the old motor, is that when the burner starts and it is very cold out, it makes an electrical hum that I suppose is the motor straining - to turn the pump? This was part of what led me to replace the motor. Now I'm thinking that the pump is old and perhaps on its way out.
Something new in the last 2 weeks, so it was doing it with the old motor, is that when the burner starts and it is very cold out, it makes an electrical hum that I suppose is the motor straining - to turn the pump? This was part of what led me to replace the motor. Now I'm thinking that the pump is old and perhaps on its way out.
#106
02-01-16, 07:27 PM
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If your filter is indoors & you have a single fuel line, outdoor temp should make no difference. The oil would have plenty of time to warm between firings.
#109
02-05-16, 07:57 PM
Hard to believe that this thread started in 2010 and I do remember your suggestion for a Tiger Loop way back but, I'm not sure we want to spend that kind of money. Is having the tank moved from outside into the basement an urgent thing and is a Tiger Loop needed with the tank indoors? We probably should have done it 15 years ago.
Anyway, there are new noises right when the burner starts and all that's left to replace is the pump. I don't mind doing this since that will make all the moving parts in the burner new. It makes an electrical hum sound like a stalled motor, yet I know the motor is not stalled since the burner is running. It lasts about a minute until it warms up I suppose.
The current pump is a Webster M34DJ-3 if that makes any difference.
Anyway, there are new noises right when the burner starts and all that's left to replace is the pump. I don't mind doing this since that will make all the moving parts in the burner new. It makes an electrical hum sound like a stalled motor, yet I know the motor is not stalled since the burner is running. It lasts about a minute until it warms up I suppose.
The current pump is a Webster M34DJ-3 if that makes any difference.
#110
02-07-16, 03:28 PM
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I'm a big advocate of TigerLoop (or similar), indoor or outdoor tank. The only exception is if you bring a single line off the bottom of the tank & the line is not run overhead or otherwise goes above the burner.
It seems strange the noise goes away after a minute of running. One would normally expect just the opposite. Just for grins, remove the pump & start the burner. If noise is still there, it isn't coming from the pump.
Some people love Webster pumps but personally I'm not one of them. With that said, if it came down to a Webster or a Beckett Clean Cut, I'd do the Webster.
It seems strange the noise goes away after a minute of running. One would normally expect just the opposite. Just for grins, remove the pump & start the burner. If noise is still there, it isn't coming from the pump.
Some people love Webster pumps but personally I'm not one of them. With that said, if it came down to a Webster or a Beckett Clean Cut, I'd do the Webster.
#112
02-19-16, 08:34 AM
I asked about the combustion chamber type because I'm wondering if an AFG burner will work properly with it or not.
Is a TSI CA-Calc CA-6203 Series Combustion Gas Analyzer a good enough unit to properly tune up a furnace? Are the reliable holding calibration decently?
CA-CALC Multi-Gas Combustion Analyzer CA-6203
Worth $500 used in good condition? Better options at this price?
Is a TSI CA-Calc CA-6203 Series Combustion Gas Analyzer a good enough unit to properly tune up a furnace? Are the reliable holding calibration decently?
CA-CALC Multi-Gas Combustion Analyzer CA-6203
Worth $500 used in good condition? Better options at this price?
#113
02-19-16, 11:28 AM
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I'm not at all familiar with this piece of equipment. Electronic analyzers are great for someone who is using them all the time but for a homeowner????? I think I'd look for an old shaker bottle rig.
#114
02-22-16, 08:26 AM
I'd tune up my furnace and water heater and my parents and would probably pay for the electronic unit as compared to the service contracts in a couple years. On the other hand, if all I have to adjust is the fuel pressure and air I doubt that I need more than the spot tester and pressure gauge. Thought I'd have more confidence knowing that nothing was too far off.
I can get a Fluke temp probe to attach to my multi-meter for less than $50, does stack temp help much with anything? Is there a good procedure on how to tune up a unit with minimal tools?
Aren't the liquids used in the shaker bottle caustic? I'd rather not risk a spill with them, and I don't think I've seen a set for less than $200 in good working order.
I can get a Fluke temp probe to attach to my multi-meter for less than $50, does stack temp help much with anything? Is there a good procedure on how to tune up a unit with minimal tools?
Aren't the liquids used in the shaker bottle caustic? I'd rather not risk a spill with them, and I don't think I've seen a set for less than $200 in good working order.
#115
02-22-16, 01:55 PM
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Yes, the shaker bottle fluid is caustic (easily neutralized with vinegar) but caustic none the less & really bad if you get it in your eyes.
Stack temperature plays a large part in determining efficiency. You want a stack temperature of at least 350*F. You can fiddle with the draft & combustion air to get the stack temp near where you want it with minimal tools. Electronics will read CO & the shaker bottles will not.
A few big things about electronic combustion analyzers:
1. They do not like ANY smoke at all.
2. Make sure sensors are available at a reasonable cost & can be field replaced.
3. How often does the instrument need to be calibrated & can that be done in the field?
Stack temperature plays a large part in determining efficiency. You want a stack temperature of at least 350*F. You can fiddle with the draft & combustion air to get the stack temp near where you want it with minimal tools. Electronics will read CO & the shaker bottles will not.
A few big things about electronic combustion analyzers:
1. They do not like ANY smoke at all.
2. Make sure sensors are available at a reasonable cost & can be field replaced.
3. How often does the instrument need to be calibrated & can that be done in the field?
#116
10-02-16, 09:09 AM
Hi everyone, I'm ready to do the end cone on the burner today and decided to take
some measurements first.
I have a Fluke meter and bought a temp probe for it. Stack temp very close to the
start of the pipe is 690 deg F!!!! Double checked with an old lab grade thermometer
and it pegged at 600 deg.
Based on what I've read on here that is way too high both zones are calling, checked that
the zone dampers are open, and the registers are open.
This is a 112,000 BTU furnace as it is set up and our home is just about 2000 square feet.
I'm thinking that I should downsize the nozzle from 1 GPH to .75, and or speed up the blower
which is a single speed type.
Tried out the spot smoke tester and got a 1.
Also, the temp in the duct work leaving the furnace was 145 deg F.
Suggestions very much appreciated!
some measurements first.
I have a Fluke meter and bought a temp probe for it. Stack temp very close to the
start of the pipe is 690 deg F!!!! Double checked with an old lab grade thermometer
and it pegged at 600 deg.
Based on what I've read on here that is way too high both zones are calling, checked that
the zone dampers are open, and the registers are open.
This is a 112,000 BTU furnace as it is set up and our home is just about 2000 square feet.
I'm thinking that I should downsize the nozzle from 1 GPH to .75, and or speed up the blower
which is a single speed type.
Tried out the spot smoke tester and got a 1.
Also, the temp in the duct work leaving the furnace was 145 deg F.
Suggestions very much appreciated!
Last edited by Pete2010; 10-02-16 at 11:21 AM.
#117
10-02-16, 07:52 PM
Group Moderator
Two threads running on the same topic is extremely confusing. You posted the same question on this old thread and a newly started thread. This one is closed and the new thread is the active one and can be found here.
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ga...12c16-1-a.html
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ga...12c16-1-a.html
