Old Magic Chef Oil Fired L6A112C16-1 is a Rumbler

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  #1  
Old 10-25-10, 09:15 AM
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Old Magic Chef Oil Fired L6A112C16-1 is a Rumbler

I do simple repairs on our 21 year old Magic Chef (with Beckett oil burner) heating system such as changing the limit switch, cleaning the internal switches on the dampers so that they work correctly and changing the bearings on the main blower.

I don't try to tune it myself and call in a tech to do it.

I am amazed by how little maintenance this system has needed over the last 10 years however it looks like an antique and is quite dirty. Over the last several years we have been finding that there is one old timer tech (I am old too so no offense to anyone) from our oil company who knows how to tune it so that it does not rumble, everytime a different guy comes out they tune it, tell me it is perfect yet when I test it, it rumbles. I call and complain they send the old timer out and he says you have to use an XYZ nozzel - I can't remember the brand but the one in there now is a good one.

The nice old fellow has retired now and I'm thinking of at least giving it a good cleaning in the hope that it might help the rumbling - or at least learn how to get rid of the rumbling after the tech tunes it.

It says right on the printing on the furnace to clean it through the flue, is this how the pros do it? Can you really do a good job this way?

Any suggestions for how to solve the rumbling are also appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Pete
 

Last edited by Pete2010; 10-25-10 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 10-25-10, 05:59 PM
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Magic Chef Cleaning

No you can't do a good job by cleaning thru the flue but it's the only way to clean it. There are no other access points to the interior of the heat exchanger. If the nozzle that's in there now is one my fellow old timer installed, remove it, carefully clean the hexagonal flats, write down any numbers & letters on the flats, take a good clear picture & post it along with the data from the flats. I can probably tell you the brand.
 
  #3  
Old 10-25-10, 10:17 PM
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I've never removed the nozzle line assembly is there a writeup about how to do it online?
I have checked the Cad cell but not gone further in than that, do I just remove the splined
nut and pull the assembly out?

The oil company suggested that we get a new furnace. Is there any simple way to determine
the health of the heat exchanger as far as leaks are concerned? I've been running a CO detector
for the last 10 years and it has never gone off, and I've never seen it above zero except when
testing it. I'm going to put in 2 new CO detectors one on each level of the house.
 
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Old 10-26-10, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete2010 View Post
I've never removed the nozzle line assembly is there a writeup about how to do it online?
I have checked the Cad cell but not gone further in than that, do I just remove the splined
nut and pull the assembly out?

The oil company suggested that we get a new furnace. Is there any simple way to determine
the health of the heat exchanger as far as leaks are concerned? I've been running a CO detector
for the last 10 years and it has never gone off, and I've never seen it above zero except when
testing it. I'm going to put in 2 new CO detectors one on each level of the house.


I will speak for Grady's behalf if he don't mind it due I am used to Beckett oil burner { don't be suprised we have quite few over here in France !! } and I have simauir one in my house and what you have to do is flip the transfomer cover over but watch the photocell harness { cable } you can able unclip it off some will sit on the clip and some will wiggle out of the socket but do it gentle please.

Then you will need either 9/16 or 5/8 open end wrench to unscrew the fuel oil line to the burner nozzle { before you do that get couple paper towel to catch any drip below }

and once you got it loosen up then wiggle sideway a little I know it will make noise then lift up a little and pull out slow but very gentle and do not squezze the ingtion tubes { i know they are pretty hard but I rather not get them cracked for good reason } and once you get it out you should able see the oil nozzle very clear but expect to be covered with soot so again take a towel and wipe it clean and you should see the numbers plus lettering there as well.

Once you got the number written down just reverse the whole thing when you put the gun nozzle back in.

It should only take less than a minute to pull it out without any binding up.

Also I know I always leave a spare nozzle on hand in case one get clogged up or other reason.

Hope that help ya.

There is about half dozen nozzle company I can recall but Delavan is most common one I ran into but there are few other brands.

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 10-27-10, 03:25 AM
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Thanks Marc. Good to see you posting again.

Pete:
As Marc said you will need to remove the small copper line from the pump to the nozzle assembly (most likely need a 7/16" wrench). Then remove the splined nut (DO NOT LOOSEN THE SCREW HOLDING THE PLATE), push the assembly to the right to free the assembly from the burner body then pull toward you.
Since it has a Beckett burner, if you post the furnace model number I can likely give you the factory spec'd nozzle.
There's no easy way for a homeowner to check the integrety of the heat exchanger.
 
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Old 10-27-10, 09:09 AM
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As Grady explain let me add one more item maybe duex as long we are on this subject first thing do not ever touch the air shutter on either right or left side of the burner depending on which way it mounted.

Second thing when you pull it out it will be a good time to pick up a old rag or papertowel and make a ball shape and sweep the gun tube to make sure you don't have any debries in there.

Also grab a flashlight as well and shine in the burner gun tube and you should see a interal flame retating wall disc majtory of the time leave it alone as long it is not show deformed or damaged if so let the HVAC tech guy do that due it have to replace the retanting disc { some wil have to remove the burner gun to get there and some don't }

And MAKE SURE the power is off when you do this task!!

Merci,
Marc
 
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Old 10-27-10, 01:11 PM
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Thank you!

Thank you for the help Marc and Grady I will try to remove it, read the numbers and take pictures tonight. I will follow your words about safety Marc thank you again.

The Furnace is a Magic Chef L6A112C16-1

The burner is: AE-885606
Looks like the motor might be new - it is clean and shiny, can't see any mfgr date.
 
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Old 10-27-10, 07:22 PM
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Nozzle

The original spec'd nozzle is a 1.00x80 solid. Since they say "solid" I have to presume it was a either a Hago or Stienen. Normally when a Delavan solid nozzle is spec'd they will refer to it as a "B" rather than just "solid". There are several nozzle manufacturers including Delavan, Hago, Stienen, Monarch, & Danfoss. The pictures & data off the old nozzle will certainly help narrow things down.
 
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Old 10-29-10, 09:34 AM
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Yes It has stamped on the faces, 1.00, 80, solid, and a logo that looks like SL which it probably Stienen.
The electrodes are completely flat; I think they should be pointed.
I might as well go get a new nozzle and probably also electrodes - I have the specs for how to gap and
set up the electrodes.

Again - thanks very much!
 
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Old 10-29-10, 01:08 PM
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Took it down to the local supply house and the fellow at the counter noticed that the letters are SH for Sid Harvey which he says has their nozzles made by Hago so I purchased a Hago, new electrodes and a transformer gasket which was missing. The Hago did look completely identical to the Sid Harvey.

I'm certain that I can change the electrodes without a problem but is it safe to change the nozzle without retuning it, or should I just have it on hand if the next tune up tech doesn't have one?

The transformer had no gasket, is it better to have the gasket?
 
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Old 10-29-10, 06:29 PM
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Nozzle

Yes, Sid Harvey & Hago nozzles are the same & in some heaters work better than other brands.

Since you've taken the nozzle out & handled it, I suggest changing.
Be very careful when handling the new nozzle not to touch the end. Handle only by the hexagonal flats.
The gasket can hurt nothing. It is more critical for the AFG burner which develops more pressure than does yours.
 
  #12  
Old 10-29-10, 07:06 PM
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Thanks again Grady, I think I've read on here to clean out the feed tube, is automotive carb or brake cleaner ok to use for that?

Also, the sides of the furnace where the blower are, tend to oil can in when the blower starts making a somewhat loud boom. I'm trying to think of a good backing that I can put there to stop this. Is the home insulation styrofoam a good product to use or do you have any suggestions? I believe that it is fire safe and would probably work well. I suppose I could pop rivet an aluminum angle brace as an alternative.
 
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Old 10-29-10, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete2010 View Post
Thanks again Grady, I think I've read on here to clean out the feed tube, is automotive carb or brake cleaner ok to use for that?
Yes you can do that but when you get done cleaning make sure you get some kind of device to blow out the line to make sure there is no resdues left in the nozzle tube otherwise it can ruin perfect good nozzle { I have see it happend when someone did not take a extra step } but do this in well vented area due the carb cleaner or brake cleaner can do funny things to ya { and yeah some are flameable as well }

Also, the sides of the furnace where the blower are, tend to oil can in when the blower starts making a somewhat loud boom. I'm trying to think of a good backing that I can put there to stop this. Is the home insulation styrofoam a good product to use or do you have any suggestions? I believe that it is fire safe and would probably work well. I suppose I could pop rivet an aluminum angle brace as an alternative.

Check the mounts on the blower and the motor brackets to make sure they are not loose I know some driect drivers are not too bad but check the mount but belt driven blowers make sure you don't leave the belt loose or super tight one of the two will cause issue.

And check the side to side motion on the belt drive blower to see how much play you have I know it will get little dirty but that is the only way you can find out why it cause the clunk noise
Hope this cover the issue I am sure Grady will add more comment on this one.

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 10-30-10, 02:45 PM
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It's all back together and worked fine through the night.
It locked up a few times after I first put it back together, ran maybe 15 min locked,
then ran longer and locked. Now it seems OK.
It was doing this at the beginning of the season and I tested the CAD cell and
cleaned it and the transformer which had probably 20 years of grime on them. It
seemed OK after the cleaning.

I've not yet changed the main fuel filter, have never done it before. I'll give it
a try once I'm sure it is running the same per these instructions:
http://411plumb.com/how-to-replace-a...filter-element

It makes a whining sound with some cycling over maybe a few second interval,
but it has been doing this for probably 2 or more seasons. The service men
just say it is getting old. I oiled the motor but no difference. The whining
becomes more strained sounding during the very cold weather but it has just
kept on working. It is a 2 pipe system with an underground tank.

The blower belt and bearings have been recently replaced and adjusted. The blower
motor does seem to have a flat spot in that during the winter it hums and will not
start when it lands in certain positions. Interesting that in the summer with the
A/C on it never has a problem - I think it is thermal related but not sure. Will
probably just replace it soon. It stuck and hummed probably 4 times last season,
then worked fine through the summer. It does not have a starter cap. I'll
probably replace it in the next week or 2. We turn the heat down when we
leave the house so that it doesn't have an issue. It ususally sticks on cold nights
when it runs for long periods, but not otherwise.
The motor is a 48Y 1/2 HP 1800 RPM, was planning to replace it with an AO
Smith (GF2054) with the same specs unless there is a better unit. Higher efficiency
would be nice if not too costly.

The panels that boom have nothing mounted to them, I can actually watch them
move about 1/8" as the blower starts and they flex in so I know it is just panel
flex and not a mechanical issue with the blower.
 

Last edited by Pete2010; 10-30-10 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 10-30-10, 03:31 PM
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The whine is possibly caused by a dirty filter causing high vacuum.
I HIGHLY recommend eliminating the return line & installing a Tiger Loop or similar device. Some good reading here: Tigerloop Article

When you change the filter, leave the vent screw alone. It will do you no good to open it & may cause an air leak. Best to leave sleeping dogs lie, lest they bite you when you wake them.

If you flush the nozzle assembly (less nozzle) with carb or brake cleaner & after you change the filter, attach the assembly to the small copper line. Direct the assembly into a container & start the burner. Allow the burner to go thru a saftey cycle. The oil will flush any loose particles from the line or nozzle assembly.
 
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Old 11-01-10, 08:23 AM
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Thanks again Grady, the Tigerloop seems to make a lot of sense would we need one also for the hot water heater - there's no way to share one I take it?

The hot water heater (Bock) which is relatively new (2006) and was just tuned up last year is now also noisey - I wanted to oil the Carlin motor but it is sealed. Could very well be air in the supply also but it never locks out and seems to work just fine besides the noise.

BTW when they put in the new water heater then commented about how the oil lines were hooked up with compression fittings and said those are intended for water fittings.
 
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Old 11-01-10, 12:48 PM
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Took another look at the blower motor to confirm that it is 1/2 and not 1/3 HP, it is 1/2 but I'm wondering if it was ever replaced and if 1/3 is the correct motor. This is what I read off of the current Emerson Motor:
S63JXJNG-7391
HP 1/2 RPM 1725 SF 1.25
115V 60 HZ Code L
A8.8/4.4 SFA 9.2/4.6
CUST PT NO 5834B5

Found an A. O. Smith GF2054 with the same specs at a good price but don't want to keep the 1/2 HP if only 1/3 is needed.
 
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Old 11-01-10, 06:03 PM
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Motor/Tigerloop/Water Heater

You might find something on the furnace data plate about the motor but I doubt it.

Yes, you would need a separate Tigerloop for the water heater.

Regarding the noisy water heater: Unlike the Beckett on the furnace, the retention head on the Carlin comes out with the nozzle assembly. If that head gets carboned up the burner will be noisy & not burn well. I use a toothbrush size wire brush to clean as much off the head as possible before using any kind of cleaner (such as carb cleaner) then use the solvent & brush. If it isn't clean enough to eat off of, it isn't clean. Carlins are more draft sensitive than Beckett. Make sure the barometric damper is working properly.
 
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Old 11-02-10, 01:24 PM
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Thanks, looks like I'll be cleaning the hot water heater next.

Contactor is 1/2 HP rated so I'll assume it is the correct rating.
 
  #20  
Old 11-02-10, 06:09 PM
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Pete.,

When you clean up the oil burner gun on water heater make sure you make a note on nozzle size and pitch and write it next to the nameplate info so that way you will have correct nozzle.

After you clean the nozzle/ gun unit on water heater make sure you take a quick peek of the flame to make sure it correct pattern it should stay in centre area and have nice yellowish colour not the red or orange colour if that happend that will need a adjustment { I rather let the HVAC deal with it due they have couple more tester to use }

And yeah go with tiger loop that will really elmated few issue with the fuel system.

I have allready install one in my furance that did slove the issue.

Merci.
Marc
 
  #21  
Old 11-03-10, 05:52 PM
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Thank you again for the tips Marc!

I'm hoping that just cleaning the water heater will not cause it to need a
tune up, but thanks very much for the tips about the flame good as a double
check that I didn't throw it off.
I'm going to just purchase a replacement nozzle, then I'll have it on hand in
case it goes out on a cold day.

Many thanks for all the help!
Pete
 
  #22  
Old 11-03-10, 05:59 PM
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It is not a problem at all that what we are here for.

And just from time to time open up the drain valve on water heater to get some of the gunk out { I know alot of peoples don't bother with that especaily with electrique water heaters }

Merci.
Marc
 
  #23  
Old 11-09-10, 11:05 AM
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Changed the fuel line filter today since today and tomorrow are supposed to be warm - just in case I run into any problems and it really made all the difference. Both burners are running much smoother without any surging or odd sounds.

What timing since the water heater just began to lock out also and it just seemed to be a fuel supply problem. I might change the filter twice a year for the next few years to try to remove as much sludge as possible while it is still a 2 pipe system - then go to the Tigerloops if necessary.

Going to do the blower motor next, then consider cleaning the heat exchanger if possible.
 
  #24  
Old 12-09-10, 12:55 PM
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Installed a new blower motor and it has a much smoother/softer start that does not suck in the side panels so it solved the boom at blower startup. Burners are still running fine.
 
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Old 12-09-10, 04:18 PM
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Thanks for letting us know the situation and you got it working the way it supposed to be.

If you have any more issue just come back and holler one of us will answer.

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 11-01-13, 12:53 PM
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I am back, thank you again gentlemen for all your help!

I have a quick question. The filler used around the furnace exhaust vent pipe has all cracked and fallen out. What is the best filler to use against the tin pipe, that goes into the concrete of the foundation? A material that comes in a caulk gun style tube would be best if there is one.

Thanks,
Pete
 
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Old 11-01-13, 01:16 PM
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You can use high temp silicone (usually orange or red in color) or furnace cement. I use furnace cement & get it in either a caulk gun tube or 1/2 gallon tub.
 
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Old 11-22-13, 02:41 PM
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Thanks Grady,
Finally got the high temp silicone and found that the pipe was rusted under
the old cement. Now I have to get some new pipe.
 
  #29  
Old 11-22-13, 06:56 PM
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When you install the new pipe, it should only go into the chimney far enough to make the end of the pipe flush with the inside of the chimney. Many people put it in way too far.
 
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Old 11-23-13, 01:28 PM
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I think I'm following you but our setup has about 10" of red pipe that leads
into the clay pipe that is the actual chimney. It looks like I could easily add
5" onto the pipe that I'm replacing. I just added one inch and there is about
2 to 3" going into the long clay pipe. It is a snug fit perhaps about 1/8" gap
for the caulk now that a solid new pipe is in there. there is a wider gap toward
the outside but that is just cosmetic as I see it. I had to replace the entire tee
and the two reducers were also badly corroded and cracking - it is coming along.
I'm not sure now if I should use the caulk since it will make it harder to work on
later. I suppose cement is just slightly easier to chip away.
Thanks again Grady, you're saving me a lot of thinking and research.
 
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Old 11-23-13, 06:54 PM
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It is back together and running. I had to replace the 8" T shaped pipe and the two reducers down to 6". The 6" pipe heading over to the hot water heater was too long with the new pieces and I had to trim 3" off which was a bit too much. Should have taken 2.5" off. Got it all back together good enough and it is all working.
The sheet metal screws all seem to strip, is that because they're made of soft metal these days?
 
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Old 11-23-13, 07:15 PM
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Six inch pipe to a water heater? They are normally either 3 or 4".
 
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Old 11-23-13, 11:23 PM
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Water heater is new from 2006, Bock high efficiency type I think. Yes it is 6"
 
  #34  
Old 11-24-13, 07:25 AM
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Zone dampers are Temp-Trol 3 wire type and the lower level zone has stuck closed many times. I have to test it to see if it is the motor, a relay, or whatever but the motor is close to $200 and I was thinking of changing it to a two wire such as this one on ebay:
HVAC Motorized Zone Control Large Rectangular Damper | eBay

The entire damper is less expensive than the motor and I think that the horizontal vanes are more efficient than the vertical ones in the durrent damper - it just seems like less wasted space.

Anyone have experience with these and are then reasonably well made/reliable?
 
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Old 11-24-13, 08:28 AM
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OK on the water heater. I presume it too is oil fired. I don't encounter as many oil fired water heaters as I used to thus I didn't even think about such.

I don't like zoned systems at all. Even in the rare instance where they are done well, they are wasteful beyond belief.
 
  #36  
Old 11-25-13, 05:47 PM
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Got the zone damper working again by cleaning the wafer switch. Started a new
thread here:
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/th...r-problem.html
 
  #37  
Old 01-10-14, 02:41 PM
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Thanks again everyone for your help in the past!
I got delayed tuning it up this year and when I went to purchase a new nozzel I remembered everything except for it being an ES type Hago, they gave me a 1.00 80 B this time. I found some info that states that the B concentrates more toward the center and am wondering if I should go ahead and try it since it does rumble a bit even with the Hago or is it very important to use the ES? I don't want to damage the furnace.
Thanks again everyone!
 
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Old 01-10-14, 07:07 PM
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The 'B' nozzle won't damage the furnace at all. It may run better than the 'ES', maybe not as well but it won't damage the furnace. I don't know about where you are, but around here, Hago nozzles are getting hard to find.
 
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Old 01-10-14, 08:02 PM
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Thanks Grady,
I notice that Delavan has B type but I didn't notice an ES type. Delavan was the one that really rumbled but I don't know what type of pattern they tried. This .pdf seems to have some good tips:
http://www.delavaninc.com/pdf/total_look.pdf
 
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Old 01-10-14, 08:28 PM
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On some burners I've spent hours experimenting with various nozzles just to get one that worked well. Sometimes going to a smaller nozzle at higher pressure is the key. Sometimes it's angle, sometimes it's pattern. There are SO many variables it will make your head spin.
 
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