T-ing gas line


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Old 03-30-12, 01:34 PM
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T-ing gas line

Not sure if I am in the right place, but let me ask this:

I need to T into my gas meter pipe, after meter of course, to connect standard 5/8 (yellow, HomeDepot) 4 feet gas line to it.

Meter is standard install, with elbow above it and maybe 3-4 inches of pipe coming out of the wall. Not too much to dance around, yet prolly enough to put T in with proper threads.
I can take pic and post later.
Curious, if it's DIY gas novice project, as I was told $300 for the job, and it simply does not look like that much $$ in it. I have monkey wrench and yellow sealing tape
 
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Old 03-30-12, 08:16 PM
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Hmm... Possibly you can explain what you want to do first. It will help.

Off the bat I can say flex lines cant be longer then 3ft per code. Why they sell 4ft lengths is beyond me.

Seems like you may be powering a generator? I will let you post back to make sure.

Soft copper would be your best bet. You need to flare it.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 03-31-12, 07:04 AM
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to be specific, I need to connect my power generator to my natural gas line, after meter. I have 4 feet flex line, stainless steel, that is already hooked up to the generator. I don't think anyone will ever see or check on line length, as I am gated and far away from street or satellites.
My technical lingo is limited to word "T" - which is, I need to install a 90 degree out threaded connection into existing pipe after meter. I think, due to T shape, they call them Tee-s right?
 
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Old 03-31-12, 07:14 AM
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Old 03-31-12, 09:01 AM
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I don't think anyone will ever see or check on line length, as I am gated and far away from street or satellites.
This is the absolute WORST excuse I have ever read on this forum. While working with steel pipe is not rocket science it IS work that REQUIRES experience. Working with fuel gas as your first experience with threaded steel pipe is insane. Working with fuel gas without first securing the proper permit AND inspections is not only unlawful but just plain stupid.

Pay the $300 and also use an APPROVED flexible HOSE to your generator, not the UNAPPROVED connector you purchased because you have no knowledge of HOW and WHY the codes specify what is APPROVED.
 
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Old 03-31-12, 10:18 AM
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If you are not going to follow code then we can't help you. Code is not a suggestion, it is for your safety.
 
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Old 03-31-12, 10:48 AM
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I agree with Furd on this one.

In all reality this gets treated as a gas grill type installation with proper valves and quick disconnects. They stop the gas flow when disconnected....etc. Rubber flex line, or possibly a regulator even....








Mike NJ
 
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Old 03-31-12, 12:24 PM
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Copper & natural gas, in my area, is forbidden as is the use of CSST flex line outdoors. I have to agree with the others. Contact a licensed contractor & have the job done right. Do you understand BOOM?
 
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Old 03-31-12, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
Copper & natural gas, in my area, is forbidden as is the use of CSST flex line outdoors. I have to agree with the others. Contact a licensed contractor & have the job done right. Do you understand BOOM?
I "get it". No one around here has 1/2 inch internal diameter rubber flex line. Period, end of sentence. If I go below 1/2 inch diameter inside, generator does not receive enough gas and simply does not work.
I bought house 7 yrs ago, with 1/2 inch gas pipe sticking out of the wall, for "grill", but it's in the back, electrical panel is good 80-100 feet away, so it's either bringing electricity to electric panel, or bringing gas to generator, as panel is about 3 feet north of gas meter, behind the wall.
So what exactly is wrong with using STAINLESS STEEL flex line outside? Why folks keep referring to copper? Who said I am not going to have at least shut off valve installed? At least several here know me well enough to know better, than to even think of something that stupid, as not having it.

But yes, I'd rather have a plumber come over and do this, as undoing that elbow prolly requires digging into the wall.
 
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Old 03-31-12, 05:12 PM
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I use copper here in NJ for short runs underground. 10ft or less. Thats soft roll copper I am talking about with flare fitting.

Now if you want to run under ground a considerable legnth then the yellow poly pipe would be the way to go for under ground. You still need hard piped ends. that covert to poly under ground.

The cheapest way is to run the rubber gas line I posted a pic of. Hmmm. Here is the link to one site. I believe 75 ft of 1/2" can be had for about $200 bucks.

These hoses are for NG gens.


Hook-Up Hoses


Why cant you uses a regular flex line for your application is its not to be used for repeated bending, flexing, or extreme vibration. It will cause metal fatigue and must be avoided per code.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 03-31-12, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa
I use copper here in NJ for short runs underground. 10ft or less. Thats soft roll copper I am talking about with flare fitting.

Now if you want to run under ground a considerable legnth then the yellow poly pipe would be the way to go for under ground. You still need hard piped ends. that covert to poly under ground.

The cheapest way is to run the rubber gas line I posted a pic of. Hmmm. Here is the link to one site. I believe 75 ft of 1/2" can be had for about $200 bucks.

These hoses are for NG gens.


Hook-Up Hoses


Why cant you uses a regular flex line for your application is its not to be used for repeated bending, flexing, or extreme vibration. It will cause metal fatigue and must be avoided per code.

Mike NJ
except that I am looking at maybe 3-4 feet needed. Have guy coming Tuesday, to replace panel with one that will run entire house off generator, not partial, as we have now.
Gas meter is 3 feet away from that panel, outside.
Here's the thing though. I have generator anchored into concrete. IT DOES NOT VIBRATE. what does, is engine, but gas regulator is bolted to frame, that is bolted into concrete. engine moves completely independently from frame, as it's mounted on rubber donuts.
Considering that it will run 2-3 days maybe once-twice on a bad year, turned off for the night - I do not see any vibration fatigue any time in the next 20 yrs, and I'll be dead by then anyway.

But this is scholastic conversation as of now, as I already posted plumber needed ad on c-list.
 
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Old 03-31-12, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa


Hook-Up Hoses


Mike NJ
those are same folks that told me $120 plus shipping for 1/2 inch hose with fitments.
 
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Old 03-31-12, 07:24 PM
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I think your best bet here is to call your gas co. Have them size the meter according to your "new load". The worst thing is to install a new gas fired appliance and not have it operate properly. The installer it seems should have advised you. When the gas co replaces the meter (if needed) ask them to provide a tee for you.
 
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Old 04-01-12, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mbk3
I think your best bet here is to call your gas co. Have them size the meter according to your "new load". The worst thing is to install a new gas fired appliance and not have it operate properly. The installer it seems should have advised you. When the gas co replaces the meter (if needed) ask them to provide a tee for you.
now this does make sense. generator will require 160 000 BTUs of gas per hr, and that meter might as well not have enough. This does make sense. Thanks. Expensive, but may be the only option.
 
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Old 04-01-12, 07:10 AM
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the connector you bought is only good to 106,000 BTU..............
 
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Old 04-01-12, 07:17 AM
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noted. biggest I could find. RETURNABLE.
 
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Old 04-01-12, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mbk3
I think your best bet here is to call your gas co. Have them size the meter according to your "new load". The worst thing is to install a new gas fired appliance and not have it operate properly. The installer it seems should have advised you. When the gas co replaces the meter (if needed) ask them to provide a tee for you.
American Meter AC-250. Rated to 250CFH. Looked up conversion, should be around 260 000 BTUs per hr. Even with my furnace working, which is 96 000 BTUs, we still should be OK. Line has 300 000 BTUs, I called our gas company last week.
The last question I need to figure is how much post meter pressure is there. I already had my gen running off propane bottle, but had to install pressure lowering regulator, it has to be down to 0.2PSI, I believe, or it blows the regulator diaphragm on regulator, that feeds generator. Meter is rated to 5 Psi. I can not find post meter pressure in its specs.
 
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Old 04-01-12, 07:46 AM
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so, one more question

those hoses:
Hook-Up Hoses

if it says:
1/2 Inch (.50) Hose with 1/2 Inch MNPT Ends
The 1/2" hoses in the 3',4',5',6',10',and 12' lengths are included with the basic shipping charges for all kits.


that's OUTSIDE diameter, right? as I had their hose shipped with conversion kit, and installed and working, but it's 3/8 INSIDE diameter. I might be chasing ghost here, looking up INSIDE 1/2 inch hose, while 3/8 INSIDE is fine, and I do have it, and right length. that's the one I used to run gen off propane bottle.

PS measured the above mentioned hose OUTSIDE. it's one inch outside, 1/2 inch inside, but fittings are all 3/8 inner diameter.
 
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Old 04-01-12, 08:55 AM
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Typically you can't just switch gases. You will have to field convert the generators for use with NG.
 
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Old 04-01-12, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by hvactechfw
Typically you can't just switch gases. You will have to field convert the generators for use with NG.
can. tri-fuel conversion kit already installed and working on propane and gasoline right away.
 
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Old 04-01-12, 04:18 PM
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How many ft are you going from the meter?

Typically around here and what I see the majority of the time with household NG is .5" W.C. That equates to .07psi I believe. Based on .60 specific gravity gas.

Also 10 ft of 1/2" iron pipe is rated for 175,000 btus. Thats Nominal pipe size. So I believe ID is actually smaller. ( I need to pull out my charts for actualls.

Also I am almost certain that when tapping off the meter the total BTU that the meter can supply does not matter in relation to the home and what btu your tapping for.

I hooked many 400,000 btu pool heaters tapping off the meter with 2" pipe 100 plus ft with no meter change. I have to pull out some paperwork to give you specific details and/or scientific lingo if you would like.

Just throwing this out there.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-01-12, 04:25 PM
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3-4 feet. ..................
 
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Old 04-01-12, 05:31 PM
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0.2 PSI equates to 5.6 inches of water column. The outlet pressure for most residential natural gas regulators around here is around 7" W.C.

Something else to consider is how far, by code, a generator has to be from the gas meter. I could be mistaken but I think it is at least 5 (maybe 10) feet. Your gas company will probably install the tee & a valve at little or no cost since you are going to use their gas to run the generator. BTW, unless the picture is misleading, your A/C appears to be too close.
 
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Old 04-01-12, 07:11 PM
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I'm pretty sure that ukrbyk's serving utility is Puget Sound Energy (PSE) and their meter siting requirements are in a pdf on the web. Unfortunately, I don't have the URL but I did download the pdf some time back and it appears that as long as his generator or air conditioning condenser unit are not installed under the relief port on the regulator that the horizontal distance requirement (from meter to generator or condenser) is only three feet.

Now IF his generator is securely bolted to the foundation block I would hard pipe it from the meter to the engine using an approved (for natural gas) vibrasorber at the connection to the zero pressure governor. Exactly how to make this connection depends upon how the zero pressure governor is mounted.

I'm also pretty sure that PSE will NOT install anything downstream of the meter. He will need to hire someone qualified (gas fitter's license inside Seattle) to remove the elbow from the gas meter outlet fitting and install a tee with appropriate elbows and approved valve. In King County I know a permit (and inspection) is required and most likely the same is true no matter what county he lives in. (I know of no "Rex" county in Washington State.)
 
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Old 04-02-12, 02:08 PM
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Many thanks Furd. Just goes to show the differences from place to place.
 
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Old 04-02-12, 03:14 PM
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I did the Google boogle and here is the pdf with meter clearances and service installation requirements; 2012 edition. http://pse.com/accountsandservices/C...ments/3885.pdf

And for some probably not all that interesting reading here is their Gas Service Handbook for Commercial/Industrial & Multifamily Developments. http://pse.com/accountsandservices/C...ments/2772.pdf
 
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Old 04-02-12, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Furd
I'm pretty sure that ukrbyk's serving utility is Puget Sound Energy (PSE) and their meter siting requirements are in a pdf on the web. Unfortunately, I don't have the URL but I did download the pdf some time back and it appears that as long as his generator or air conditioning condenser unit are not installed under the relief port on the regulator that the horizontal distance requirement (from meter to generator or condenser) is only three feet.

Now IF his generator is securely bolted to the foundation block I would hard pipe it from the meter to the engine using an approved (for natural gas) vibrasorber at the connection to the zero pressure governor. Exactly how to make this connection depends upon how the zero pressure governor is mounted.

I'm also pretty sure that PSE will NOT install anything downstream of the meter. He will need to hire someone qualified (gas fitter's license inside Seattle) to remove the elbow from the gas meter outlet fitting and install a tee with appropriate elbows and approved valve. In King County I know a permit (and inspection) is required and most likely the same is true no matter what county he lives in. (I know of no "Rex" county in Washington State.)
That's exactly what I do.
Called PSE - yes - and they cleared me for install. Checked BTUs, and said it's good to go.
Yes, they do nothing upstream of meter.
Yes, I do have a plumber coming tomorrow.
Yes, will cut into elbow, as the most feasible option.
As of connection itself, it is still question of pumping enough gas through.
What we'll do, I'll return that yellow flex pipe. Buy 3 feet length of black pipe, secure to the wall, and final fitment with 7/8 2 feet flax pipe. It is rated for outside use and has monstrous gas flow rating of 290 000 BTUH. Otherwise, I'll have to buy 2 of them, and join the together, then concern is, it may dump too much gas into those 2 lines
With 3 feet black pipe+2feet 7/8 flex pipe, I should be OK for gas flow. I was told that flex pipe will fit right over the black threaded pipe.
 
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Old 04-02-12, 06:11 PM
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Smart move. It may cost a bit more up front but by having it done professionally & inspected it could save major expense down the road.
 
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Old 04-02-12, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
Smart move. It may cost a bit more up front but by having it done professionally & inspected it could save major expense down the road.
well, I think I could have done all this myself too. Somehow, folks believe, that kids with a 6 mths certificate are smarter, than seasoned bears with 11 yrs of universities.
Looking back at the entire length of this thread, my question truly was - how do I undo that elbow,, with it all being set up as it is.
I have done much more advanced piping for my irrigation system, but there I had luxury of using those fitments, where you can slide pipe to suitable length. Here - have no idea how to undo it, without digging into the wall.
Plumber is old family buddy, he's one of my son's best friends. Will cost me maybe 100 bucks plus materials.
 
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Old 04-02-12, 06:31 PM
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On the top of the meter is a union half. The other half is built onto the meter. When all is said & done buy your plumber friend lunch. He could very well have saved you from a disaster.
 
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Old 04-02-12, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
On the top of the meter is a union half. The other half is built onto the meter. When all is said & done buy your plumber friend lunch. He could very well have saved you from a disaster.
why I didn't take a closer look at that connector before? all it is is to undo a flange nut on the meter, then elbow can be turned any direction convenient. that simple. when it's turned, one can do as he pleases with it. everything between meter and wall pipe end can be re-designed.
 
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Old 04-03-12, 08:06 PM
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Old 04-03-12, 08:37 PM
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Im sorry but that flex line aint looking right. I dont think you can use that. I know I posted why, but I will try to find more info.

In all my plumbing yrs I have never seen one used outdoors, and I am sure there is a reason.

Second I dont think that cord should just go through the house like that.

Ukrbyk you seem smart enough to know this seems wrong, correct? But then again you did make some comments in the posts along the way that has me baffled in your logic regarding this project.

Geez it just looks "Hokey" IMO, dont it.

Anyone else????

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-03-12, 09:20 PM
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Well, the a/c is way to close to the meter. It looks like it was done with teflon tape (no, no). Where is the generator? WHen no appliance is attached to the line it MUST be capped (just a shut off is not enough.)
 
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Old 04-03-12, 11:52 PM
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I agree, that installation just plain sucks and appears to be in violation of several requirements.

According the PSE meter siting requirements you MUST have a minimum of three feet from the meter and/or gas piping (either side) to the air conditioning condenser unit. You might have three feet but it sure doesn't look like it in the picture.

The gas shut-off valve is supposed to be a minimum of eight inches above finished grade. Yours looks to be about half that.

The air conditioner disconnect needs to be a minimum of three feet from the meter and/or gas piping. The cable TV connection is too close to the meter/regulator.

I don't see ANY means of fastener holding the new piping.

The "plumber" used a bushing in the run of the tee rather than a reducing tee or bell reducer. While no longer prohibited, bushings, street elbows and straight couplings ARE poor practice. I seriously doubt this "plumber" has much experience (or a license) to do fuel gas piping.

The orange hose appears to be some kind of gas hose although I am not sure. The way it enters the side of the building is totally screwball and I suspect the use of this hose (or whatever it is) is not code compliant, especially in this particular installation.


well, I think I could have done all this myself too. Somehow, folks believe, that kids with a 6 mths certificate are smarter, than seasoned bears with 11 yrs of universities.
Too bad those eleven years of university didn't teach you to start a sentence with a capital letter AND didn't teach you that no matter how much formal education you have there is ALWAYS something that you won't know that someone else will. I've known far too many people that "think" that because they have a degree that anyone who works with their hands is of lesser education. I also have a degree but I don't flaunt it and I NEVER look down on others than may (or may not) lack a college education. I dare say that there are many "kids" with a certificate that they earned through a comprehensive six-month course that are far smarter, and more competent in their chosen field than either you or I.
 
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Old 04-04-12, 06:56 AM
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Stainless steel flex pipe 290 000 BTUH is rated for outdoor use and is permitted here for various outdoor applications.
Correct way of bashing me would have been - is that a cable coming out of the wall? As, in reality, it is compressed air line. The grey box on the wall, next to main electrical line - is code compliant 50Amp 4 prong generator connection box, hardwired into the new electrical panel installed yesterday, so that now we can run anything we want in the house off generator. Electrician will be back today with twist plug for it, and we will make proper cable length to connect generator. Gen will be set outside prolly by the week end, as I do have another project I need to take care of first.
Entire set up is as kosher with codes, as it gets. Inspector is coming Friday to finalize.
 
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Old 04-04-12, 09:18 AM
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The "plumber" used a bushing in the run of the tee rather

Good eye furd. I did not even see that.

Yes not to code.

I dont think we are bashing you urk but that whole area looks hokey. Most of us here have been on enough jobs to know what professional installations look like. And that is not one of them.

It would not be up to any of my standards. I don't work like that. Hey its your home though.

Good luck with it. And hey we are all friends here. No hard feelings. You asked for advice and we are giving you the best advice you can get.



Mike NJ


 
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Old 04-04-12, 05:11 PM
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I will absolutely guarantee if a gas inspector in my area saw that set-up he'd flip out. I wonder how many of his "Notice of Violation" forms he carries. He would probably just lock out the meter & run off screaming.
 
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Old 04-10-12, 01:14 PM
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So what did the inspector have to say about the installation?
 
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Old 04-11-12, 10:43 PM
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Washington Natural Gas and Puget Sound Energy ---- my old outfits!

Left them 8/99.
 
 

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